Execution Barriers. Should they be patched?

[Hor_PeT]

I just went in the lab with Erron for 3 minutes for the first time to experiment. I just slide my thumb over 21, do it again, then hit 2 and comes out. I'm getting it 100% of the time on PS4 pad after literally a couple mins of practice.

It's actually kind of fun.

I will try it too but I heard sliding kills the thumbs lol.
I do not really like sliding inputs but in that case it is neccessary at least that first 21 for being fast.

I slided scorpion's 21(4) in mkx too.

EDIT: I tried sliding 21, 21 then press 2. It comes out too and feels more clean input but my finger needs to work much faster lol. And still can drop it easily.

211 1+2 feels much relaxing lol.

But need practice as easy to miss the double press.
The good new I found that for 21212 KB (if you use button activation) you can simply relax and wait for the last hit with pressing the 2 and hold. Yesterday I hold damn 1+2 and did not dare releasing it haha.

Same for throw KB. Throw button can be pressed just before the kb move not holding during the whole throw animation.
I learn new stuff every day lol.

 

[Eji1700]

So what you seem to be asking for is access to said characters best tools without having to put in any time learning how to do them. This is a fighting game it is all about rythem, timing and learning. That is why they have longevity. Why should the game give you a free pass? Would you expect to pick up a guitar for the first time and instantly play. Lab it , learn it

This isn't labbing. It's time wasting. Labbing is setting the opponent to a situation you can't handle and running it 30 times to figure out what you can do, or testing out restands with followup pressure to see when it's better than finishing normally, or even just practicing whiff punish reactions on the AI.

No one is still playing ANY fighting game "Because it's hard to execute" or else we'd have SNK pretzel inputs everywhere.

What's obnoxious about the NRS ones is they're for 0 reason. As mentioned this isn't EGWF or Summon Suffering or something where the difficult input has legitimate gameplay implications. It's a way to waste 10 mintues of a scrubs life or apparently 3 min of CrimsonShadows. Who the fuck cares if i have access to my characters best tools faster if it's expected that i'll get there 3 minutes later.

Again at least Tekken is honest about it's difficulty being a part of the game. Tekken pro's drill movement and inputs because it actually matters. This is the sort of shit you mess with for a few minutes and never care about again, so who the hell is enjoying it? All the old hats and pros have made clear they don't even notice it because "it's so easy" and I highly doubt the scrubs getting smashed over and over again for 100 other reasons are really enjoying dropped combos the one time they whiff punish properly, so why is it in there?

I mean in the scope of the game, no this doesn't matter in the slightest, but I'll never get why everyone gets their feathers ruffled as if someone is suggesting we give beginners auto whiff punish options or something absurd. This kind of difficulty wasn't interesting when it was popular in the 90's, and it's not now.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

This isn't labbing. It's time wasting. Labbing is setting the opponent to a situation you can't handle and running it 30 times to figure out what you can do, or testing out restands with followup pressure to see when it's better than finishing normally, or even just practicing whiff punish reactions on the AI.

No one is still playing ANY fighting game "Because it's hard to execute" or else we'd have SNK pretzel inputs everywhere.

What's obnoxious about the NRS ones is they're for 0 reason. As mentioned this isn't EGWF or Summon Suffering or something where the difficult input has legitimate gameplay implications. It's a way to waste 10 mintues of a scrubs life or apparently 3 min of CrimsonShadows. Who the fuck cares if i have access to my characters best tools faster if it's expected that i'll get there 3 minutes later.

Again at least Tekken is honest about it's difficulty being a part of the game. Tekken pro's drill movement and inputs because it actually matters. This is the sort of shit you mess with for a few minutes and never care about again, so who the hell is enjoying it? All the old hats and pros have made clear they don't even notice it because "it's so easy" and I highly doubt the scrubs getting smashed over and over again for 100 other reasons are really enjoying dropped combos the one time they whiff punish properly, so why is it in there?

I mean in the scope of the game, no this doesn't matter in the slightest, but I'll never get why everyone gets their feathers ruffled as if someone is suggesting we give beginners auto whiff punish options or something absurd. This kind of difficulty wasn't interesting when it was popular in the 90's, and it's not now.

But you're comparing something that takes years to master (Tekken movement) to something that takes a day (being pretty generous) to get the hang of. I really don't see how this comparison works.

If it took as long to be able to do f22 as it took to be able to move at a high level in neutral in Tekken, then you could compare and draw parallels. But it's almost an afterthought in the full amount of time you'll be playing MK11.

It's like complaining about the Shoryuken input in SF. Except that that probably takes longer to feel comfortable with than something as simple as f22 But the point is, you do it during a brief period of time and then you never really think about it again. It's just part of learning the game.

 

[Eji1700]

But you're comparing something that takes years to master (Tekken movement) to something that takes a day (being pretty generous) to get the hang of. I really don't see how this comparison works.

If it took as long to be able to do f22 as it took to be able to move at a high level in neutral in Tekken, then you could compare and draw parallels. But it's almost an afterthought in the full amount of time you'll be playing MK11.

It's like complaining about the Shoryuken input in SF. Except that that probably takes longer to feel comfortable with than something as simple as f22 But the point is, you do it during a brief period of time and then you never really think about it again. It's just part of learning the game.

Maybe i'm not conveying myself well, but that's literally my point. This isn't tekken levels of difficult, so why does it exist? Tekken difficulty makes sense, it's a serious part of the game. F22/Erron string difficulty is non existant to anyone half good, so it's only there to annoy beginners?

You can argue the DP input matters because it's not something you can input as easily as other inputs and absolutely not something you can input while blocking, but there was legit concern about how the shortcut inputs in SFIV changed that because it does change how the game is played. The NRS inputs being easier will change literally nothing, so what's the downside of doing that?

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Maybe i'm not conveying myself well, but that's literally my point. This isn't tekken levels of difficult, so why does it exist? Tekken difficulty makes sense, it's a serious part of the game. F22/Erron string difficulty is non existant to anyone half good, so it's only there to annoy beginners?

You can argue the DP input matters because it's not something you can input as easily as other inputs and absolutely not something you can input while blocking, but there was legit concern about how the shortcut inputs in SFIV changed that because it does change how the game is played. The NRS inputs being easier will change literally nothing, so what's the downside of doing that?

I think "If it isn't Tekken levels of difficult, why does it exist?" would ruin pretty much every fighting game on the market, including some mechanics in Tekken itself that aren't nearly as difficult as the movement.

Like, who made it a talking point that there can't be shades and degrees of difficulty of execution? That argument makes very little sense.

If we removed everything that's slightly difficult for beginners from every game, they'd be much less fun to play on the whole.

 

[Eji1700]

I think "If it isn't Tekken levels of difficult, why does it exist?" would ruin pretty much every fighting game on the market, including some mechanics in Tekken itself that aren't nearly as difficult as the movement.

Like, who made it a talking point that there can't be shades and degrees of difficulty of execution? That argument makes very little sense.

If we removed everything that's slightly difficult for beginners from every game, they'd be much less fun to play on the whole.

So you'd enjoy this game less if the things we're talking about in this topic were easier?

 

[wsj515]

@ OutworldKeith @magandi quote from thread: "question is kind of a non-starter as the things you listed are definitely not worth considering as an execution barrier, they just aren't difficult if you have ever played a fighting game before, or have spent a small amount of time practicing in training mode."

Another quote: "They aren’t hard to do. They just take a little practice. That’s it really, just lab for like 10 mins and that’s all it takes, lol."

Another: "I mean, you literally hold forward and double-tap 2. Anyone complaining about that probably shouldn't be playing competitive-style fighting games."

This is a common sentiment in this thread. And then Scar and TekkenMaster drop these very moves. Not saying they can't be made easy with enough practice -- but they obviously are execution barriers. I mean that's just a clear fact

Except pros make input errors all the time, even on extremely easy inputs, anyone would at that level with the pressure on. That doesn't all of a sudden mean those inputs are hard.

 

[Rorshock]

So you'd enjoy this game less if the things we're talking about in this topic were easier?

Absolutely yes. You should be able to mess up combos. Nerves should cause you to drop combos that you normally execute well. This will only really happen if there's at least some level of difficulty in execution.

Mental pressure is a huge part of fighting games. Execution adds to mental pressure. Notice how when pros are losing they often stop going for optimal combos and start going for simpler ones that are easier to execute.

There are characters who have ridiculously easy inputs. You have your characters, let players who like challenging execution have theirs. Different strokes for different folks.

 

[Eji1700]

Absolutely yes. You should be able to mess up combos. Nerves should cause you to drop combos that you normally execute well. This will only really happen if there's at least some level of difficulty in execution.

Mental pressure is a huge part of fighting games. Execution adds to mental pressure. Notice how when pros are losing they often stop going for optimal combos and start going for simpler ones that are easier to execute.

There are characters who have ridiculously easy inputs. You have your characters, let players who like challenging execution have theirs. Different strokes for different folks.

Fair enough, I get that. I disagree that these inputs are meaningfully hard enough that anyone is going to be dropping them after a certain (fairly low) skill level, but I can see the value if you think they are.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

So you'd enjoy this game less if the things we're talking about in this topic were easier?

Of course. There's a mental balancing act that's an enjoyable part of playing fighting games. Mastering the execution of something and staying focused enough to do it in the moment at a subconscious level all the time. F22 is one of the least difficult of those things, but each bit adds up into something that feels like it's keeping your mind and reflexes in shape when you play.

You 100% lose that part of the experience when you dumb things down as far as possible, to avoid annoying players who won't bother to spend time learning something a little bit out of the ordinary.

 

[colby4898]

You didn't really answer the question -- it's a pretty straightforward question, and titles don't have much to do with it.

I'll ask again -- having to press a button rapidly is a feature of many games. How do you do this if you're unable to hold forward and tap a button twice?

By definition, every movement, special, and combo in a fighting game is likely 'harder than it could be', so that's not a particularly good argument in this case.

Ithink the point is why make the input f22 mash when it could just be f2 or something. I’m sure you’re very skilled and hit it every time, your mother must be proud, the point is not everyone can. And what does it add?

 

[scrubjesus111]

Except pros make input errors all the time, even on extremely easy inputs, anyone would at that level with the pressure on. That doesn't all of a sudden mean those inputs are hard.

Really. This is just dishonest man. It's not incidental that Scar dropped that string 3 times, but nothing else. It's because that string in particular is hard, or at the very least harder than the rest of the strings in MK11. Not that I should need the case example of Scar dropping it, which was just hilarious after all the BS downplaying on this thread, because it's freaking obvious. I didn't want to argue whether 21212 qualifies as an execution barrier. It plainly does. The point of this thread was to ask whether it should remain as such.

Now if you want to argue that it isn't much of an execution barrier, then that might go to the argument that it should stay the way it is. There were a lot of other good points made for keeping them like:

To be clear I wouldn't want them to change Jacqui's F22

Jacqui does really good damage with every touch and it'd be dumb if she could easily get better damage.

It's not really an "artificial execution" barrier since it serves a purpose.

Erron Blacks 21212 kinda serves a purpose as well because it forces you to commit to the whole string regardless of what happens with 21 on block. Like you cant jump in punch 21 then decide what to do based on whether it was blocked or not.

An "arbitrary" thing was more like the games initial way of "amplifying" moves (when it wasnt universally the interact button). That literally served no purpose but to add more button pressing and memorization. So not surprising they removed it.

And

The only execution thing I’ve found to be difficult in MK11 is cassie’s Db4(amp) into b13 (which is an actual 2 frame link that can’t be plinked) in Yas Queen variation.

Here are the reasons for higher execution in fighting games:

• character variety (so characters okay differently)
• strength of tool (powerful tools should be difficult to use)
• mechanical reason (such as making sure a string cannot be hit/block confirmed)

It makes sense that some moves have higher execution requirements. Having said that, I honestly don’t think the execution requirement in MK11 is all that high. Jacqui f22 is much easier than stanky 4u4 was in MKX. Erron Black’s 21212 string isn’t that hard to get out.

For these, you’ll just need to practice.

For things like Cassie’s link though; that is just arbitrarily high and doesn’t really serve a purpose other than to nerf her (already decently low) midscreen combo damage.

 

[ienjoywinning]

should ‘artificial’ execution barriers be removed? ex: erron black’s 21212 and jacqui’s uppercut thing. So I legit CANNOT do cancels off of erron’s 21212 string consistently online. I’d love to play the character but that string is central to his game and I can't do it. Jackqui also has something that is arbitrarily hard to do imo. My question is: should NRS patch these to make them easier to do? Or do they add some positives to the game design?

Canceling the s2 string is definitely a you thing. It's literally the same as Laos string in mkx with a late cancel window which actually makes It easier to hitconfirm. Theres absolutely nothing wrong with it and I've been playing him for ages and can consistently do it online at 120+ ping. Just spend 15
mins in the lab doing it till you understand how it works then it'll be easy.

 

[wsj515]

Really. This is just dishonest man. It's not incidental that Scar dropped that string 3 times, but nothing else. It's because that string in particular is hard, or at the very least harder than the rest of the strings in MK11. Not that I should need the case example of Scar dropping it, which was just hilarious after all the BS downplaying on this thread, because it's freaking obvious. I didn't want to argue whether 21212 qualifies as an execution barrier. It plainly does. The point of this thread was to ask whether it should remain as such.

Now if you want to argue that it isn't much of an execution barrier, then that might go to the argument that it should stay the way it is. There were a lot of other good points made for keeping them like:



And

It's not dishonest. If you tuned into the Summit of Time at all this weekend, you would have seen every single pro screw up an input at some point, even something as simple as a bf special input.

 

[scrubjesus111]

It's not dishonest. If you tuned into the Summit of Time at all this weekend, you would have seen every single pro screw up an input at some point, even something as simple as a bf special input.

That's true. But the bf input was not messed up three times in a single match. A short hop didn't accidentally come out as a full jump three times in a single match. Semiij didn't mess up any of Kitana's strings once, let alone three times, but he might have if they required the timing that 21212 does. This one string stands out, and it's just bizarre and disingenuous seeming that you and others are pretending it "shouldn't even qualify as an execution barrier". Again, you could argue that it isn't much of an execution barrier - especially when you consider Korean Backdashing and EWGF etc., but you have to concede that it is in a category of its own in this game, or yes, you are being dishonest.

 

[NaCl man]

Is scar asking for it to be patched?

 

[magandi]

Ithink the point is why make the input f22 mash when it could just be f2 or something. I’m sure you’re very skilled and hit it every time, your mother must be proud, the point is not everyone can. And what does it add?

it adds difficulty. you just said it. not everyone can do it, thats what makes the player who can do it the better player.

 

[TaserFace007]

Or a player with a more expensive controller. That works too.

 

[AZ MotherBrain]

No, just practice