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Ed Boon Q&A on Twitter

It's not because the community is "entitled" or never satisfied, but because NRS hasn't found that happy middle yet.
It absolutely is though. That's not just for this game or this community, it's for all games and communities today. Gamers always think they know what's best and what should be done, but they don't, and their ideas are usually band-aid fixes at best, or outright very, very game/character breaking bad at worst. Again, I've seen this everywhere today, i.e. in StarCraft II and fighting games like Mortal Kombat and Killer Instinct. I thankfully don't play the ceasepool that are MOBA's and team shooters.

Here's a great example from a modern fighting game developer's own mouth for Killer Instinct. Jump to 1:19:31, ends 1:21:40:

The community got the issue wrong, and Iron Galaxy was able to fix the situation the proper way. That's because a community is often very reactionary and emotion-driven as opposed to analytical and fact-driven.

Watch the entire "Finding Balance" section of the video to see how community engagement just didn't work, and sadly, why it doesn't work in general today.

Even looking at Mortal Kombat, we used to have developers commenting on TYM regularly, and that's long done down. Why do you think that is (rhetorical question)?
 

Law Hero

Reach Heaven through violence
It absolutely is though. That's not just for this game or this community, it's for all games and communities today. Gamers always think they know what's best and what should be done, but they don't, and their ideas are usually band-aid fixes at best, or outright very, very game/character breaking bad at worst. Again, I've seen this everywhere today, i.e. in StarCraft II and fighting games like Mortal Kombat and Killer Instinct. I thankfully don't play the ceasepool that are MOBA's and team shooters.

Here's a great example from a modern fighting game developer's own mouth for Killer Instinct. Jump to 1:19:31, ends 1:21:40:

The community got the issue wrong, and Iron Galaxy was able to fix the situation the proper way. That's because a community is often very reactionary and emotion-driven as opposed to analytical and fact-driven.

Watch the entire "Finding Balance" section of the video to see how community engagement just didn't work, and sadly, why it doesn't work in general today.

Even looking at Mortal Kombat, we used to have developers commenting on TYM regularly, and that's long done down. Why do you think that is (rhetorical question)?
I've seen the clip before and it's a great example of what a wise developer does. They DID listen to the fans, but they had the wisdom and intelligence necessary to fix the problem the right way.

Using the example in the video, if this were Injustice, they would have nerfed Jago into F tier and made his healing useless. If it where MK11, they would have knocked off 10 HP and called it a year. Those are both poor solutions that are going to earn the scorn of the community. A good developer will listen to the community and then give them what they NEED. The community may not understand or appreciate it immediately, but they will in the long term if it's the right thing to do. I don't think you'll find many people here who will generally look back on NRS's patching practices fondly because they have historically either reacted too strongly or too weakly to fan complaints.

I don't know what goes on at NRS, so I don't want to accuse them of laziness or incompetence. I do believe that there are people staffed who have passion and are genuinely doing their best, and I understand that a big company has a myriad of issues that can interfere with these processes. That being said, NRS is putting out a product that they want people to buy. You cannot put out a product that people dislike and then call them entitled. Respect is a two-way street, and fans should voice their concerns in as civil and appropriate a manner as possible in order to get their point across; additionally, NRS should do their best to please the fans that purchase their products and keep their company afloat. Fans that lash out and call developers stupid and lazy, and developers that antagonize their fans and call them entitled are both two halves of the same coin.

Consumers and producers need to maintain a healthy relationship, and these attitudes and actions do nothing but worsen the experience for everyone.
 
Fair enough, and overall while I understand, and generally agree with what you're saying, I firmly believe that no matter what NetherRealm, or any developer, does, fans will come down on them hard. I firmly believe this because I've seen this over and over and over again.

You cannot put out a product that people dislike and then call them entitled. Respect is a two-way street, and fans should voice their concerns in as civil and appropriate a manner as possible in order to get their point across;
Absolutely, but you've defined a big part of the problem: fans today very rarely voice their concerns in a civil and appropriate manner. There's a huge difference between constructive criticism and entitled whining. Most fans today choose the latter, yet try to defend it as being "constructive."
 
Time to get rid of the variation system forever
Yeah. I had no issues with Variations in Mortal Kombat XL. It was a very interesting concept and quite well executed. Variations in Mortal Kombat 11 Ultimate always felt unfinished to me, as I've mentioned several times before.

If they went back to a properly defined Variation system, I'd have no issue returning. Otherwise, I think it would be better to go back to traditional characters.
 

Espio

Kokomo
Lead Moderator
The main thing variations do is create feelings of FOMO. It makes characters much less enjoyable when you wanna play your main, but you can never truly play them fully without sacrificing something. This is most striking with characters like Raiden and Kitana where over MKX and MK11 you lose out on central moves that defined the character like teleport for Raiden or Square wave for Kitana. It is also abundantly clear that some characters seem anemic with the variation system they currently utilize. Kitana they often just have to give her other character's moves instead of truly fleshing out her fan and wind based abilities.

I don't hate variations and I really enjoy Baraka's command grab and spikes in MK11....but in order to have this unique playstyle he is not allowed to have a launcher also equipped while others with command grabs can have that plus a launcher and safe specials. The system breeds inconsistency especially when it is not corrected.

Variations also discourage nuanced, solidified playstyles for characters because they want to give you a "zoner style Goro" (completely different from actualy overall playstyle) or rushdown zoner instead of just committing the characters to a cohesive play style and vision we end up with characters that are more flexible to variations and variety suffers as a result. I'd prefer a commitment to distinct trap/set up, rushdown, zoning, grappler etc styles to truly bring about cohesion. I don't expect it to happen, but it would be amazing to have a more deliberate design ethos per character.


It absolutely is though. That's not just for this game or this community, it's for all games and communities today. Gamers always think they know what's best and what should be done, but they don't, and their ideas are usually band-aid fixes at best, or outright very, very game/character breaking bad at worst. Again, I've seen this everywhere today, i.e. in StarCraft II and fighting games like Mortal Kombat and Killer Instinct. I thankfully don't play the ceasepool that are MOBA's and team shooters.

Here's a great example from a modern fighting game developer's own mouth for Killer Instinct. Jump to 1:19:31, ends 1:21:40:

The community got the issue wrong, and Iron Galaxy was able to fix the situation the proper way. That's because a community is often very reactionary and emotion-driven as opposed to analytical and fact-driven.

Watch the entire "Finding Balance" section of the video to see how community engagement just didn't work, and sadly, why it doesn't work in general today.

Even looking at Mortal Kombat, we used to have developers commenting on TYM regularly, and that's long done down. Why do you think that is (rhetorical question)?
This is a fascinating point. I definitely feel like communities are very reactionary especially in the first year where people are not playing even half of match ups correctly. The crux of this though is that they are explicitly articulating the WHY they did something and I think all competitive games would benefit a whole lot more from that transparent communication of the whys. Limited communication breeds anxiety and contempt for those we disagree with. People can disagree with your logic, but if you're willing to explain it in a nuanced way, serious people will listen even if they do not 100% agree. I don't believe in caving to mob discourse but often times explanations can be poor and while I believe in "level up and adapt" sometimes a dismissive approach can also alienate.

That explanation is great because they just made an area where he was weak a more definitive, real weakness instead of a safe get in with no downsides option and kept the character unique.

Also an aside: People like to say 5% health reductions or 10% increases are nothing but at high level play in tournaments some of my sets come down to the last 5 or 10 percent and if your character lost 95% of their health and has reduced health...they're already dead. This may seem like a minor change at lower level play but every bit of health counts in top competition or even upper mid level competition.
 

Pizza

Thrill Kill
Yeah. I had no issues with Variations in Mortal Kombat XL. It was a very interesting concept and quite well executed. Variations in Mortal Kombat 11 Ultimate always felt unfinished to me, as I've mentioned several times before.

If they went back to a properly defined Variation system, I'd have no issue returning. Otherwise, I think it would be better to go back to traditional characters.
You know, I'm kinda split on some characters who were born in the variation system like Cassie. It's like in MKX I can see her different variations and understand the differences between them; ultimately I chose Brawler and she was one of my mains actually. But in MK11 I felt like I couldn't get back to play her, she was too different and none of the options available gave me anything close to her "original" Brawler variation. The structural gameplay differences between MKX and MK11 are probably a factor too, but I'm talking more about legacy.

The new characters introduced in MKX and MK11 are probably more difficult to adapt to a "no variation system" since they were developed with variations in mind. I think that's a big difference compared to the legacy characters. Cassie might be "Brawler" to me, but to others she could be Spec Ops or Hollywood... and you just cannot squeeze all those playstyles into one character, it just won't work.
 

Marlow

Noob
The main thing variations do is create feelings of FOMO. It makes characters much less enjoyable when you wanna play your main, but you can never truly play them fully without sacrificing something.
I think one of the big issues is people always feel like their character is missing something, whether it's actually true or not. It gives the impression of incomplete characters.

My general thoughts are that if MK11 had gone without variations, then you'd simply have one version of each character which would map fairly closely to one of the current variations. For example, MK11 Raiden would have likely been his Thunderwave variation, and the moves for his Raijin variation would have likely been left on the cutting room floor.

I'm fine with variations, but I hope for the next game they take a break.
 
This is most striking with characters like Raiden and Kitana where over MKX and MK11 you lose out on central moves that defined the character like teleport for Raiden or Square wave for Kitana.
The FOMO concept is an interesting line of thought on Variations and one I've never considered. That's probably because FOMO never bothers me and I more go with the flow. I've been a Kitana (and Mileena) main for this entire trilogy, and I don't mind missing out on Square Wave, for example. I was super excited for Assassin Rush instead in Mortal Kombat X, as it was a move that seemed more in line with the "darker" Kitana they were putting together. I also firmly believe Mileena was not originally planned for Mortal Kombat 11, and thus Half Blood Stance, which again, didn't bother me at all. It was odd seeing her with a Sai on her back the whole time, but it didn't irk me.

So it's interesting to see how different people define a character and their feel.

The crux of this though is that they are explicitly articulating the WHY they did something and I think all competitive games would benefit a whole lot more from that transparent communication of the whys. Limited communication breeds anxiety and contempt for those we disagree with. People can disagree with your logic, but if you're willing to explain it in a nuanced way, serious people will listen even if they do not 100% agree. I don't believe in caving to mob discourse but often times explanations can be poor and while I believe in "level up and adapt" sometimes a dismissive approach can also alienate.
That's the thing though: this open communication absolutely blew up in Iron Galaxy's face. This was before my time playing the game and being a part of the Killer Instinct community, but things got very toxic, elitist, and entitled and Iron Galaxy was forced to nix all that open communication. It's a period that was apparently so dark for the game, I can't get the full details from community members today; they refuse to talk about it because it was so bad.

What I have found out is that the bulk of the community acted so horribly, so entitled, that they no longer expect any future developer of the franchise will be so open in communication again, and they know they caused it themselves. The community had some of the best developer-to-community communication ever seen, and they shat all over it.

That, along with seeing examples of community behaviour for other games, is why I firmly believe no matter how much, or how little, a developer or publisher communicates with their fan base it will also go sour and blow up in their face. Always. So I understand why developers scale back and don't want to openly chat, because if all they're going to get is shat on with hate and entitlement for it, what's the point?

@Pizza Very good points about newer characters to the franchise.
 

Kiss the Missile

Red Messiah
He did another one last night.
Going to paraphrase notable answers:

They are looking into MK9 being backwards compatible.
They have talked about creating a sister company to NRS what would make spin off games.
Mileena is more than likely going to be in the next MK
They want to do a modernized Konquest mode
They were never actually "in talks" about a Marvel game
Ed wants Atrocitus in Inj3
Ed once again mentions how badly he wants Shaolin Monks to come back
Next NRS title will not be free to play
They've been trying for years to get Buffy theVampire Slayer, but it never worked out
Spawn isn't likely to ever return to MK
Ed said "Signs point to yes" to answer if NRS will ever use Unreal Engine 5
 

Jynks

some heroes are born, some made, some wondrous
With Street Fighter 6's "World Tour Mode"... is it to late for "Shaolin Monks" or a return of "Konquest Mode"?

We all know MK is an innovator and did Konquest mode nearly 2 decades ago but I feel NRS has missed a massive opportunity with Capcom getting their version of Konquest out first for modern gamers.

For those that do not know "World Tour" in SF6 is like a "career" mode in a sport game. You make your own character then wander around an "open(ish)" world. You train with Masters, enter low level events from boxing matches to underground fighting rings. As you level you gain special moves and stats. Eventually you can challenge the main characters in the franchise. There is still a lot we do not know about it. YouTube "SF6 World Tour" if you want to know more.

Anyway, it is not exactly like Konquest, but it is basically the same idea. I think it is a real shame that NRS missed the boat on this... I get that to make it they would have to cut down / replace the film like story mode, which has become their main thing to the casual market.. as in how they make actual money.... but still. It is a shame.

I dunno.. when I heard of World Tour.. I just felt bummed as Konquest would be so awesome in a modern MK game.. and now for gamers all the way into their mid 20s if NRS ever does this, it will feel like NRS ripping off capcom.


  1. They're working on one game, maybe 2
  2. It could be either MK, Injustice, or something else
lol... yeah. Those are the options. : )
 
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Jynks

some heroes are born, some made, some wondrous
There are a few ones that need to be in every version.... and she is one of them. Mileena, Scorp, Subs, Kano... I think even Sonya could take a miss.. but it is close... still those 4 or 5 have to be in every game every time imo. With rosters so large... a classic crew every game should not be a problem. Particularly if they release some dev pressure by not making variations.

Also....

Official PlayStation uTube chan has a scheduled MK11 Invitational in 3 days. MANY game announcements on this chan with the "state of play" videos... with Boon doing Q&A.. maybe some news soon?

 

Marinjuana

Up rock incoming, ETA 5 minutes
Someone asks if Kratos will return, Boon gives a high quality Boon response




Commander Keen is a platformer for MS-DOS made by ID/John Carmack, who made Wolfenstein, Doom and Quake. He probably likes the game but that's such an obscure reference, I think he's hinting at Doomguy for guest character, who I feel like had a lot of hype and talk about him as possibility already. Microsoft/Bethesda owns Doom now, but they are certainly willing to have crossovers with their IPs

Edit:



 
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Jynks

some heroes are born, some made, some wondrous
I'd be more happy to see Keen than Kratos... but Keen was ID software this is a hint at Doomguy
 

Kiss the Missile

Red Messiah
Someone asks if Kratos will return, Boon gives a high quality Boon response




Commander Keen is a platformer for MS-DOS made by ID/John Carmack, who made Wolfenstein, Doom and Quake. He probably likes the game but that's such an obscure reference, I think he's hinting at Doomguy for guest character, who I feel like had a lot of hype and talk about him as possibility already. Microsoft/Bethesda owns Doom now, but they are certainly willing to have crossovers with their IPs

Edit:



You guys are reaching like crazy lmao.
Dude asked for horror movie guest characters, Ed said "Hell. To the yes"
Thats a hint at Hellraiser, not Doom