Match-up Discussion DS Matchup Chart after a year into IGAU

[Srryimwhte]

my current yet subject to change over time mu chart
6-4 Ares
6-4 Black Adam
5-5 Catwoman
5-5 Cyborg
5-5 Green Arrow
4-6 Green Lantern (5-5 against a zoning lantern)
5-5 Harley Quinn (very stage dependent)
7-3 Hawkgirl
7-3 The Joker
6-4 Lex Luthor
5-5 Raven (6-4 for @Blind_Man)
5-5 Scorpion
5-5 Shazam
5-5 Bane
4-6 Batman
5-5 Deathstroke
5-5 Killer Frost
5-5 Lobo
5-5 Nightwing maybe 4-6 (I feel this is stage dependent as well)
5-5 Sinestro
5-5 Solomon Grundy
5-5 Superman
5-5 Zatanna
5-5 Aquaman
5-5 Batgirl
4-6 Doomsday
3-7 The Flash
5-5 Martian Manhunter
4-6 Wonder Woman
4-6 Zod

 

[Slips]

Yeah lobo could be that, and if cyborg does standing fireball, ds can just jump it and if he tries and charge it, shoot him out of it. Plus DS is significantly better up close without a doubt.

Well if Cyborg sees him jump thats when he releases it. He's not gonna wait for DS to get that low to the ground before releasing his shot. That being said, Cyborg's fireball has a better vertical hitbox than DS guns. Therefore, at best, DS can use his air guns to help avoid Cyborg fireballs, not win the zoning war.

 

[YOMI MITYEAP]

Well if Cyborg sees him jump thats when he releases it. He's not gonna wait for DS to get that low to the ground before releasing his shot. That being said, Cyborg's fireball has a better vertical hitbox than DS guns. Therefore, at best, DS can use his air guns to help avoid Cyborg fireballs, not win the zoning war.

DS can win the zoning war, you are forgetting about ex guns which cyborg will have to respect. Also if cyborg just waits, he is freely allowing DS to close the distance and we know up close it isn't even a contest because DS possesses better ground/air normals and he has better wakeups. Cyborg is built for zoning purely, he is not built for fighting up close.

 

[YOMI MITYEAP]

my current yet subject to change over time mu chart
6-4 Ares
6-4 Black Adam
5-5 Catwoman
5-5 Cyborg
5-5 Green Arrow
4-6 Green Lantern (5-5 against a zoning lantern)
5-5 Harley Quinn (very stage dependent)
7-3 Hawkgirl
7-3 The Joker
6-4 Lex Luthor
5-5 Raven (6-4 for @Blind_Man)
5-5 Scorpion
5-5 Shazam
5-5 Bane
4-6 Batman
5-5 Deathstroke
5-5 Killer Frost
5-5 Lobo
5-5 Nightwing maybe 4-6 (I feel this is stage dependent as well)
5-5 Sinestro
5-5 Solomon Grundy
5-5 Superman
5-5 Zatanna
5-5 Aquaman
5-5 Batgirl
4-6 Doomsday
3-7 The Flash
5-5 Martian Manhunter
4-6 Wonder Woman
4-6 Zod

always interesting to see a different chart outlook for DS, thanks for the input.

 

[Slips]

DS can win the zoning war, you are forgetting about ex guns which cyborg will have to respect. Also if cyborg just waits, he is freely allowing DS to close the distance and we know up close it isn't even a contest because DS possesses better ground/air normals and he has better wakeups. Cyborg is built for zoning purely, he is not built for fighting up close.

I will argue Cyborg in the end will always outzone DS. You are forgetting Cyborg's mb air nova blasts that will not only win the air projectile trade but will just flat out beat all his grounded gun options as well. If DS has to burn meter just to go even with Cyborg's standing nova blast zoning...he isn't winning the zoning war.

Cyborg projectiles, do more chip, do more damage, cause more guard stun than DS's guns and air mb nova blast is a pretty safe haven for Cyborg that DS can do little about without falling subject to Cybrog's normal zoning.

Cyborg holding his shots is when the DS player finally realizes he can't win the zoning war. Which at that point is Cyborg playing his normal game. So he outzones DS, counter-zones DS, and then gets to play his game once he has a good enough life lead.

DS is undoubtedly better than Cybrog up close. Thats why the mu is probably even.

 

[Vagrant]

Yeah DS has options in the zoning war. Like it's not hopeless. But Cyborg has the advantage full screen imo you want to definitely be making your way in against a cyborg player.

I think this matchup is even.

Air shots actually do help in this matchup for avoiding fireballs

 

[YOMI MITYEAP]

I will argue Cyborg in the end will always outzone DS. You are forgetting Cyborg's mb air nova blasts that will not only win the air projectile trade but will just flat out beat all his grounded gun options as well. If DS has to burn meter just to go even with Cyborg's standing nova blast zoning...he isn't winning the zoning war.

Cyborg projectiles, do more chip, do more damage, cause more guard stun than DS's guns and air mb nova blast is a pretty safe haven for Cyborg that DS can do little about without falling subject to Cybrog's normal zoning.

Cyborg holding his shots is when the DS player finally realizes he can't win the zoning war. Which at that point is Cyborg playing his normal game. So he outzones DS, counter-zones DS, and then gets to play his game once he has a good enough life lead.

DS is undoubtedly better than Cybrog up close. Thats why the mu is probably even.

I'm still not seeing it, and air ex nova blast just means you are using meter which will only lead to chip since it is easy to block. Also when he holds his blast, why not just use quick shot???? that is faster and DS will recover fast enough to block his nova blast. I think the zoning war is even, I couldn't see how he'd win when he has to mb his air nova blast and there is no guarantee he'll hit you with a ground blast since it is slower than DS's guns and it recovers slower. Also up close, cyborg is only getting away if he is able to land his unsafe wakeup punch or if he is able to use his grapple hook, other than that, DS can work his oki game on him easier than he can on most characters. Also DS tends to build meter a lot anyways, so why not use ex guns from time to time? I'd have to play your cyborg tbh. Also if DS gains the life lead......... cyborg is in real trouble then.

 

[KingHippo]

I'm still not seeing it, and air ex nova blast just means you are using meter which will only lead to chip since it is easy to block. Also when he holds his blast, why not just use quick shot???? that is faster and DS will recover fast enough to block his nova blast.

No, that's just false man. Not only would you still get hit when he releases it, you lose the damage war since yours does 6 to his 8. The frame advantage is a wash too.

 

[YOMI MITYEAP]

No, that's just false man. Not only would you still get hit when he releases it, you lose the damage war since yours does 6 to his 8. The frame advantage is a wash too.

depends on how fast cyborg reacts to the gun shot. Also depends on how far away DS is from him. I've done it before.

 

[KingHippo]

Alright, let me put it this way: Why would Cyborg hold the shot at the range that would happen (Which I assume is close to full screen)? The reason why he'd hold it is so he can react to someone jumping, which would probably be more likely at mid range or closer. Not being able to keep up with him in terms of chip or fireball damage is big and that's why Slips and others are saying it is even. You can run train on him as much as you like when you get up close, but his options to run away are extremely good and he builds a lot of meter just doing his normal grounded fireball on block. Just a simple rotation of air and then ground fireball will probably be enough to keep DS guessing, and that is probably what it really boils down to. Because I have to guess which avenue to knock him out of the air (and not win the trade if I do) is probably why Cyborg keeps up very well.

 

[YOMI MITYEAP]

Alright, let me put it this way: Why would Cyborg hold the shot at the range that would happen (Which I assume is close to full screen)? The reason why he'd hold it is so he can react to someone jumping, which would probably be more likely at mid range or closer. Not being able to keep up with him in terms of chip or fireball damage is big and that's why Slips and others are saying it is even. You can run train on him as much as you like when you get up close, but his options to run away are extremely good and he builds a lot of meter just doing his normal grounded fireball on block. Just a simple rotation of air and then ground fireball will probably be enough to keep DS guessing, and that is probably what it really boils down to. Because I have to guess which avenue to knock him out of the air (and not win the trade if I do) is probably why Cyborg keeps up very well.

Why would he not hold his shot???? because if he just does it and I'm at a distance where I can jump then that will be a full combo for DS. Also the fact cyborg has to hold his shot means he is scared of DS jumping, which means he is conditioned to deal with one thing while risking getting hit by something else. It is all based on reads really, he isn't just going to make DS hopeless in the zoning game, it depends on what the cyborg player does and what the DS player does. Also I feel up close, it is horrific for cyborg because he unfortunately lacks the normals to compete up close, which isn't going to help the case for cyborg at all. But to each their own, not like 6 4 or 5 5 are that different anyways haha, it is a matchup that both the characters can play just fine.

 

[Srryimwhte]

DS can win the zoning war, you are forgetting about ex guns which cyborg will have to respect. Also if cyborg just waits, he is freely allowing DS to close the distance and we know up close it isn't even a contest because DS possesses better ground/air normals and he has better wakeups. Cyborg is built for zoning purely, he is not built for fighting up close.

I have to agree with slips on this mu especially from playing @Relaxedstate a lot pre and post patch the match up is even deathstroke just has a better up close game
usually my mind set is to get e meter lead though it means I may have to make a trade with quickfire/nova blast then proceed to work my way in while checking him with guns

 

[YOMI MITYEAP]

I have to agree with slips on this mu especially from playing @Relaxedstate a lot pre and post patch the match up is even deathstroke just has a better up close game
usually my mind set is to get e meter lead though it means I may have to make a trade with quickfire/nova blast then proceed to work my way in while checking him with guns

I could be wrong for sure, but I would rather play it more since there are so few cyborgs

 

[Srryimwhte]

I could be wrong for sure, but I would rather play it more since there are so few cyborgs

hey at least this is the first time a forum is full of people considering others mu knowledge and exp but if you play online hit up relaxed or k7

 

[RM Jonnitti]

so i got a chance to play decay tonight at the break. first time i got to play a lobo worth shit. first thing i noticed is that in zoning, you really although guns are pretty good against him, one shot with shells loaded and it was all for nothing. he usually would load shells after blocking low guns or after landing that string that launches him in the air, he would never do it raw. however, i noticed that lobo doesn't really have any wakeups that deal with j3 very well. i mean sure he has the chain charge that gets him out but there have been times that i stuffed it with the crossup. also, if you block a low chain from max range you can shoot him in the face which is nice. first impression is that its probably 5-5. still need to grind it out more with him. hopefully ill get a chance to play him again next week. hes really good!

 

[Sultan]

Any Deathstroke players wanna run the K.Frost matchup? I've been meaning to actually sit down and learn this one but haven't gotten around to it.

XBL: Sultan of Sw1ng

I'll also x-copy any cool stuff I see since DS is my secondary.

 

[L1FTER]

I could use some tips in the Grundy MU. I'm not losing it badly at all but I feel it's a matchup Slade should always win. Any advice would help.

 

[L1FTER]

I had a set against m2dave and got beaten pretty bad. I lack experience in the MU so I'm not gonna throw numbers around but my first impression is that it seems like it's in Zod's favor. DS's zoning can't keep up and I had such a difficult time applying pressure. I'd love to hear some tips and some reasoning as to why it could be 5-5.

 

[YOMI MITYEAP]

I had a set against m2dave and got beaten pretty bad. I lack experience in the MU so I'm not gonna throw numbers around but my first impression is that it seems like it's in Zod's favor. DS's zoning can't keep up and any I had such a difficult time applying pressure. I'd love to hear some tips and some reasoning as to why it could be 5-5.

It could be 5 5 or 6 4, I will get back to you to help you out.

 

[RM Jonnitti]

I had a set against m2dave and got beaten pretty bad. I lack experience in the MU so I'm not gonna throw numbers around but my first impression is that it seems like it's in Zod's favor. DS's zoning can't keep up and I had such a difficult time applying pressure. I'd love to hear some tips and some reasoning as to why it could be 5-5.

i played viking a few times and from what i can tell, DS actually can keep up with zoning. you need to keep in consideration that gunshots are way faster than all his projectiles. you still have to respect ground lasers which are a dick but its not the end of the world. you can shoot himm out of trait startup as well as zod ball start up, grounded or air. ground lasers are really the only full screen too he has that is hard to deal with as DS. i also feel that once you get in its mad free since not only does zod lack wakeups and is for the most part forced to respect grounded mixup, 90% of zod players have the shittiest fundamentals in the world and can't block for shit (not really zod MU advice but take my word for it, the worst defensive players ever tend to be zod and DD players). you should practice stuffing force push and zod charge, both really easy to stuff out with b1 or b2. also whenever you block a trait grab make DAMN sure you punish that shit. its close to -20 i believe, all i know is from full screen you can shoot him in the face and get a full ass combo if you block it up close. if he has trait out, dont even both trying to wake up through his mixup if he gets in your face because hes just goign to trait grab you and even if he gets hit, the trait grab still gets out and he has enough time to dash all the way in from full screen (if he needed to), fully charge a b3 and get a full ass combo punish (yeah totally not cheap but okay). i lack the MU experience as well but first impression is def 5-5. could be in either characters favor at this point tho. zod honestly has a lot of bullshit that you just have to learn how to deal with.

 

[YOMI MITYEAP]

It could be 5 5 or 6 4, I will get back to you to help you out.

Jonnitti seemed to help ya witb zod , but since u asked for help with Grundy, I will give u that.
Some very key things that should help:
*b1,2 is a solid counter to his wcc so utilize it for sure
*mb b3 to blow up wcc pressure/ his trait grab and mb f3 as well( can use his f3 to avoid wcc armor pressure from time to time)
*Ex high or low shots are great in zoning since they are multiple hits and are good vs his armor/ his assult rifle is good at the right distance since it is multiple hits as well
*now I need to test this, but there might be a way around grundy anti air grab, but I shall see
This should help #YEAP

 

[L1FTER]

i played viking a few times and from what i can tell, DS actually can keep up with zoning. you need to keep in consideration that gunshots are way faster than all his projectiles. you still have to respect ground lasers which are a dick but its not the end of the world. you can shoot himm out of trait startup as well as zod ball start up, grounded or air. ground lasers are really the only full screen too he has that is hard to deal with as DS. i also feel that once you get in its mad free since not only does zod lack wakeups and is for the most part forced to respect grounded mixup, 90% of zod players have the shittiest fundamentals in the world and can't block for shit (not really zod MU advice but take my word for it, the worst defensive players ever tend to be zod and DD players). you should practice stuffing force push and zod charge, both really easy to stuff out with b1 or b2. also whenever you block a trait grab make DAMN sure you punish that shit. its close to -20 i believe, all i know is from full screen you can shoot him in the face and get a full ass combo if you block it up close. if he has trait out, dont even both trying to wake up through his mixup if he gets in your face because hes just goign to trait grab you and even if he gets hit, the trait grab still gets out and he has enough time to dash all the way in from full screen (if he needed to), fully charge a b3 and get a full ass combo punish (yeah totally not cheap but okay). i lack the MU experience as well but first impression is def 5-5. could be in either characters favor at this point tho. zod honestly has a lot of bullshit that you just have to learn how to deal with.

Yea as the set went on I was seeing guns could be out all zod balls. I suppose my impatience was getting to me and I was trying to rush him down and dave plays the lamest style I've ever seen. I'll def hit the lab and work on stuffing wakeups. Thanks for these tips.

Jonnitti seemed to help ya witb zod , but since u asked for help with Grundy, I will give u that.
Some very key things that should help:
*b1,2 is a solid counter to his wcc so utilize it for sure
*mb b3 to blow up wcc pressure/ his trait grab and mb f3 as well( can use his f3 to avoid wcc armor pressure from time to time)
*Ex high or low shots are great in zoning since they are multiple hits and are good vs his armor/ his assult rifle is good at the right distance since it is multiple hits as well
*now I need to test this, but there might be a way around grundy anti air grab, but I shall see
This should help #YEAP

All great things I'll keep in mind on this matchup. I've found that doing an almost instant air j3 stuffs the anti grab on grundy's wakeup but I'm sure we can find other ways.

 

[RM Jonnitti]

another note on grundy is low guns are amazing against him unless he activates chip trait, then they are pretty shit. for some reason a lot of grundys dont use that against DS which i think is kinda retarded lol. also don't jump on grundy unless its to scout a backdash after a blocked f3 or after a knockdown. okizeme isnt to hard to get off of grundy.

 

[M2Dave]

DS actually can keep up with zoning.

He definitely cannot.

Add me on XBL for a demonstration.

 

[YOMI MITYEAP]

He definitely cannot.

Add me on XBL for a demonstration.

Yo we need to run this matchup