Donatello General Discussion: "Get ready for gadgets"

[Sugarwatermixlegit]

Dropping Mikey for Donnie. I've just been having more fun with him.
This is some basic stuff I was getting down in the lab earlier

 

[Sugarwatermixlegit]

So when you throw out trait and are absorbing projectiles, what exactly are you supposed to do from a distance since Don doesn't have any projectiles of his own? I could see it being huge if he did, but I just kind of stand behind it and take a second to think over the match currently.

 

[Tundra81]

So when you throw out trait and are absorbing projectiles, what exactly are you supposed to do from a distance since Don doesn't have any projectiles of his own? I could see it being huge if he did, but I just kind of stand behind it and take a second to think over the match currently.

It's a good tool to use to take a second and look over the match....and that's about it, lol. No but seriously I haven't really found a proper use for it especially when turtling builds so much bar and is much more effective. I'm just sticking to B4 and F4 for setups. Check out a few sets from Raptor if you haven't already...

Right around the 8 minute mark he has a ranked set with a Darksied player and it's brutal to watch Donnie trying to get in but Raptor does well. I'm pretty sure he makes good use of the trait you're talking about through out the set.

 

[Sugarwatermixlegit]

It's a good tool to use to take a second and look over the match....and that's about it, lol. No but seriously I haven't really found a proper use for it especially when turtling builds so much bar and is much more effective. I'm just sticking to B4 and F4 for setups. Check out a few sets from Raptor if you haven't already...

Right around the 8 minute mark he has a ranked set with a Darksied player and it's brutal to watch Donnie trying to get in but Raptor does well. I'm pretty sure he makes good use of the trait you're talking about through out the set.

I'll watch this and see if I can adapt anything from it, Raptor has been putting out great turtle stuff as of recent.
But yeah I totally agree, turtling is so much better and in the end I just use the other two variants of the trait. Mainly b4.
Was sort of hoping Don would get some sort of gadget projectile but it is what it is.

 

[MisguidedAngel]

The force field gadget is great in certain match ups. It's a nice counter to Ivy's trait for example when you're up close.

 

[Marinjuana]

I haven't played the MU(against Donnie) but I was thinking that his trait would be a valuable tool against Brainiac.

First off, if you take away Brainiac's ability to jump then you are taking away the majority of his gameplan, albeit for a limited time. He still has rangey normals but I'd imagine that would be tough sledding for ol' Brainy.

Then you have the force field. A classic Brainiac move is to use his trait to eliminate the opponent's ability to anti air effectively on his approach, possibly forcing them to hold mixups or to just let Brainiac get in. Normally turtling would counter his projectile but not when he combines that with his approach. Force field could be a direct counter to that.

Definitely a matchup I'd be interested in seeing.

 

[Sugarwatermixlegit]

How are you guys feeling about the Sub MU? I've played a lot today and by my best guess I would say it is even, maybe Sub gets a slight advantage, but I'm bad with MU numbers.

 

[kevkopdx]

How are you guys feeling about the Sub MU? I've played a lot today and by my best guess I would say it is even, maybe Sub gets a slight advantage, but I'm bad with MU numbers.

I haven’t been played a really good sub but overall (keep in mind I think this character is really fun) I think Donatello needs some serious help. Sub’s zoning kinda sucks, so parrying ice balls full screen won’t do much once your opponent adapts and I feel sub has better faster neutral tools. Donatello’s gaps feel really easy to blow up. Again, I don’t have a ton of experience in it, just theorizing. I’m not a down player, I think Donatello is a pretty weak character. Hoping somebody can shed some light on playing him more effectively, if it’s possible.

 

[Sugarwatermixlegit]

I haven’t been played a really good sub but overall (keep in mind I think this character is really fun) I think Donatello needs some serious help. Sub’s zoning kinda sucks, so parrying ice balls full screen won’t do much once your opponent adapts and I feel sub has better faster neutral tools. Donatello’s gaps feel really easy to blow up. Again, I don’t have a ton of experience in it, just theorizing. I’m not a down player, I think Donatello is a pretty weak character. Hoping somebody can shed some light on playing him more effectively, if it’s possible.

He's probably my favorite character to play on the roster right now, and I agree he is looking pretty weak. I want to get the most out of him because he is so much fun. I find myself switching back to Harley to save myself in a set, but I'm looking to make Don work somehow in most MUs.
Sub for sure has better tools to work with in the neutral, I find myself getting screwed in the corner.

 

[KingofBreaker]

Wanted to show off some Donnie tech after b/f3. Basically, don't do a j2, just use 3. Simpler combos and more damage.

 

[kevkopdx]

Wanted to show off some Donnie tech after b/f3. Basically, don't do a j2, just use 3. Simpler combos and more damage.

I’ve only been using 3 twice in the corner... that timing feels weird mid screen, had no idea you could do that, good stuff

 

[KingofBreaker]

Also here's a few optimal-ish punishes for his fastest normals, d1, 1, and 2. Been trying to practice my punish game and this is what I've come up with.

 

[kcd117]

Just one thing I think no one else is doing and it really helps to keep the mix going is to finish combos with 13. They get knocked down at the perfect distance for his f2, b1, j2 and b2. people will start backdashing it and that is when u just dash foward b2 to punish them for doing it.

 

[AkioOf100]

some donnie gimme games. i play raph :3

 

[KingofBreaker]

Just one thing I think no one else is doing and it really helps to keep the mix going is to finish combos with 13. They get knocked down at the perfect distance for his f2, b1, j2 and b2. people will start backdashing it and that is when u just dash foward b2 to punish them for doing it.

1,3 is a great tool for sure. I've been using it if my combo is looking a little iffy. Did a little testing and if you jump immediately most of his jump attacks land in front, take a microstep forward and they all cross up (fairly ambiguously), and you can combo off that beefy j3. Definitely need to experiment more though.

 

[kcd117]

1,3 is a great tool for sure. I've been using it if my combo is looking a little iffy. Did a little testing and if you jump immediately most of his jump attacks land in front, take a microstep forward and they all cross up (fairly ambiguously), and you can combo off that beefy j3. Definitely need to experiment more though.

yeah it is really useful, I've been messing with the step foward j2 and it even catches some backdashes. I like it bc every conversion u can still get 40/45% ending with the 13 and after some conditioning people will try to rush out of it by backdashing/waking up and that is sooo good to bait bc u are at the safe distance from most wakeups and you can punish backdashes with far bombshell for free.

 

[KingofBreaker]

Last little bit of Donnie tech I think. Wanted to see if he had any good left/right mixups with bombshell on block. Turns out, he only has two ways to pull it off: 1) spacing dependent b1, and 2) whiffing the first hit of b22 and hitting with just the tip of the second. Gonna at least try to work the b1 into my game.

 

[DarksydeDash]

Here's an idea I had but haven't tried it out.

Normally bf2 is unsafe but if we can use a string with pushback on it while the vaccum trap is out, we can knock them away from us and build meter with safe chip. This would also technically make anything unsafe mostly safe because the opponent would be pulled backward.

 

[kevkopdx]

Here's an idea I had but haven't tried it out.

Normally bf2 is unsafe but if we can use a string with pushback on it while the vaccum trap is out, we can knock them away from us and build meter with safe chip. This would also technically make anything unsafe mostly safe because the opponent would be pulled backward.

In theory, this is ok, but that’s a lot of moving parts to make it worth doing. The cool down is longer on vacuum and you net some damage if you land the electric trap instead. I don’t really understand the vacuum, if you use it point blank and they are stuck in the center, does that do anything with frame data? Or are they just briefly stuck? To me, the electric trap is the only one worth using, it’s consistent little bits of damage, even the projectile eating trap seems worthless considering the meter you build with just parrying instead. I’m guessing that one is only worth using against multi hit projectiles like dr fates... Donatello needs some help, I would take a damage reduction in exchange for a quicker startup on b2 or b1, so it can actually be used to play better footsies. I dunno.

 

[kcd117]

In theory vacuum should be an amazing tool but we have black manta/catwoman/wowo tier walkspeeds that simply don't care about it. Pair that with the fact most characters have a fast advancing string and most of donnie's stuff is really negative on block (like bf2 being -36) and you can't really use the vacuum effectively to avoid punishes.

What you can do tho is set up vacuum after a b3/f3. You hit a bounce and then d2 xx far/medium vacuum S13. After that you can foward j2 into a 50/50 and it is extremely ambiguous, you can crossup or not and land on both sides depending on the j2 timing. Imho it is not worth it, you sacrifice a lot of dmg for a reset and doing dmg is the only thing Donnie is decent at. I would like to see a vacuum buff for it to become useful against the better walkspeed characters.

 

[Cursa]

Is Donnie just bad because he has loads of gaps and shit? Or is that just one of many problems?

 

[kcd117]

Is Donnie just bad because he has loads of gaps and shit? Or is that just one of many problems?

The main reason he is bad imo is that he has no true mids and the riskiest neutral in the entire game. Everything he does has a gap or/and is heavily unsafe. Everytime you do anything in neutral it is punishable.

Imo he is not hard to fix, all he needs is his s2 and d1 fixed so it doesn't whiff, B2 to become a mid and b22 -5. He would be instantly viable. A trait buff would also be welcome, b4 should last a little bit longer and f4 should have a stronger vacuum effect, it is really useless in the matchups he could use it the most. His anti air staff is one of the most satisfying moves in the entire game to land, but it is just not happening if you are trying to anti air the best jump ins in the game on reaction, every time u see someone anti air a character like flash or batman with it, it is a read, and a very risky one, so I would also really like to see a little bit less startup on it. Idk but imo he is is the worst character in the game at at his current state, he is completely pointless bc ebc everything he is decent at simply doesn't matter bc there are at least 10 other characters that do the same thing but 10 times better. The buffs I suggested would make his neutral really good, while keeping his 50/50s unsafe and his dmg the same. I'm really afraid the devs will go the easy route on him and just make bf2 mb safe bc that would kinda break his offense without fixing his real flaws.

 

[KingofBreaker]

The main reason he is bad imo is that he has no true mids and the riskiest neutral in the entire game. Everything he does has a gap or/and is heavily unsafe. Everytime you do anything in neutral it is punishable.

Imo he is not hard to fix, all he needs is his s2 and d1 fixed so it doesn't whiff, B2 to become a mid and b22 -5. He would be instantly viable. A trait buff would also be welcome, b4 should last a little bit longer and f4 should have a stronger vacuum effect, it is really useless in the matchups he could use it the most. His anti air staff is one of the most satisfying moves in the entire game to land, but it is just not happening if you are trying to anti air the best jump ins in the game on reaction, every time u see someone anti air a character like flash or batman with it, it is a read, and a very risky one, so I would also really like to see a little bit less startup on it. Idk but imo he is is the worst character in the game at at his current state, he is completely pointless bc ebc everything he is decent at simply doesn't matter bc there are at least 10 other characters that do the same thing but 10 times better. The buffs I suggested would make his neutral really good, while keeping his 50/50s unsafe and his dmg the same. I'm really afraid the devs will go the easy route on him and just make bf2 mb safe bc that would kinda break his offense without fixing his real flaws.

I agree with a lot of your points, especially making his 2 a true mid. That thing whiffs on so many low-profile moves it's ridiculous. However when it comes to the gadget... Man I just don't have any strong feelings about it. I haven't found a great use for the vacuum, you never need the projectile shield unless you toss it far away and use it to advance (but why not just build meter?), and the electricity is decent but again, doesn't really change much for Donnie.

I would love for them to make his bf2 mb safe and leave it with the same amount of push block. I don't see how it would break his offense because he doesn't really have great offense to begin with. It would mean he could take more risks with some of his pokes and actually close the distance safely. That's been one of my major problems with Donnie thus far, figuring out how to get in and stay in while still doing damage. Also I constantly find myself hoarding meter because he doesn't have any good reasons to use it unless he's doing a combo.

Also I personally think that his bf2 is one of the coolest moves in the game and I never ever feel comfortable using it in matches unless I end a combo with it in the corner. And that makes me sad.

 

[kcd117]

I agree with a lot of your points, especially making his 2 a true mid. That thing whiffs on so many low-profile moves it's ridiculous. However when it comes to the gadget... Man I just don't have any strong feelings about it. I haven't found a great use for the vacuum, you never need the projectile shield unless you toss it far away and use it to advance (but why not just build meter?), and the electricity is decent but again, doesn't really change much for Donnie.

I would love for them to make his bf2 mb safe and leave it with the same amount of push block. I don't see how it would break his offense because he doesn't really have great offense to begin with. It would mean he could take more risks with some of his pokes and actually close the distance safely. That's been one of my major problems with Donnie thus far, figuring out how to get in and stay in while still doing damage. Also I constantly find myself hoarding meter because he doesn't have any good reasons to use it unless he's doing a combo.

Also I personally think that his bf2 is one of the coolest moves in the game and I never ever feel comfortable using it in matches unless I end a combo with it in the corner. And that makes me sad.

The reason I am afraid bf2 mb safe would break him is bc that would give him a safe 50/50 and make his gaps extremely risky to exploit since bf2 breaks armor and beats pokes. At the same time, if they do this instead of making b2 a mid he would still have no decent neutral check against characters that already outfootsie him like gl, adam and superman, he would keep the flaws that make him fundamentally lose matchups while getting and extremely dangerous safe 50/50. Of course I would take that buff bc it is better then nothing haha but I think in the long run he would have a really cheap mixup and a really exploitable neutral (at his current state everything he has is exploitable).

Regarding trait, it seems really tricky to use, vacuum is pretty much useless bc in the matchups he could have some benefit using it it doesn't suck them enough to matter, and the other matchups, well, he doesn't need it anyway. The no jumping is useful but it lasts for such a little time, it should have it's duration increased a bit and maybe a bit more dmg too (like 60 instead of 35). The projectile one is actually really good in some matchups like superman, fate and harley. If you read that superman is gonna do an air laser u can throw it and dash fullscreen to punish him. Fate's orbs get eaten by it, if u corner fate and throw one in front of him it really limits his options. Harley's hyenas and shots also get absorbed by it giving u free punishes sometimes. From what I have played it seems to be a really good tool against characters that have an air projectile bc it makes it whiff and they are usually stuck on recovery long enough for you to punish them. But it is only useful in a few matchups. I think the vacuum and the lasers should have an extra effect, vacuum should be stronger and do dmg over time and lasers should make u unable to use special moves if you are inside it (It could even have a bigger cooldown then).

I really hope we get some buffs tomorrow, he is such a fun character and needs some love b4 it is too late.

 

[KingofBreaker]

The reason I am afraid bf2 mb safe would break him is bc that would give him a safe 50/50 and make his gaps extremely risky to exploit since bf2 breaks armor and beats pokes.

What is this safe 50/50 you speak of? Unless I'm misunderstanding you, bf2 being safe would just mean that he couldn't be punished afterward on block. Where is the overhead/low mixup there?