Does He/She Need It?

[The_Tile]

The point of staggering is to get a counter hit and trying for b3 off my no plus frames isn't a good idea. Even off something like f2 tele cancel which is her best cancel I can't go into back 3 because the teleport is bugged and I'll just get away teleport (top 5 boyz)

Works great online though

I mean delayed B3 after an ExTonfa on block or a Rekka on hit. I dunno why you're downplaying so hard, even if she isn't top 5 she's top 10 for sure.

 

[B. Shazzy]

I mean delayed B3 after an ExTonfa on block or

You realize that, uh, I have to open someone up in the first place to get the plus frame off rekka right? So suggesting strategies to open people up starting with "Once you've opened them up..." is really weird.

Also I don't understand ex tonfa stagger b3? I mean is my opponent supposed to get tired of holding down to block and that's how the b3 is hitting? The first hit is always a mid/low there's no mixup there. There's no 113 or 11 f2 or d4 or millions of plus frames like Johnny Cage. Please just stop.

 

[HuttonMD]

@Shyyzmm

Where do you think Tanya stands if she not top 5?

I'm not gonna get into everything because I Dont have many good Tanya's to play and show me where all the gaps but I still think her pressure is better then your making it out to be.

if it was as easy as your making it out to be you wouldn't see so many ppl struggle with it and if I'm wrong correct me but doesn't she have an answer for her negative frames so if you try something she can punish so its still a guess for both players kinda

If any Tanya players read this and are on xbox add me so I can get some MU experience

 

[Zoidberg747]

The point of staggering is to get a counter hit and trying for b3 off my no plus frames isn't a good idea. Even off something like f2 tele cancel which is her best cancel I can't go into back 3 because the teleport is bugged and I'll just get away teleport (top 5 boyz)

Works great online though

If you're getting away teleport then you are probably inputting the b3 too fast after the tele-cancel. I had the same problem but didnt after I made sure to not input b3 until a few frames after the tele-cancel. Maybe the patch changed it, I dunno.

That being said going for b3 after a tele cancel is indeed pretty pointless. Its better to do b1 2+4 pressure to get more pressure.

You realize that, uh, I have to open someone up in the first place to get the plus frame off rekka right? So suggesting strategies to open people up starting with "Once you've opened them up..." is really weird.

Also I don't understand ex tonfa stagger b3? I mean is my opponent supposed to get tired of holding down to block and that's how the b3 is hitting? The first hit is always a mid/low there's no mixup there. There's no 113 or 11 f2 or d4 or millions of plus frames like Johnny Cage. Please just stop.

You can get plus frames off of rekkas if you do a fully delayed EX third rekka.

As for your second paragraph the b3 doesnt have to hit to be useful. B321 is still plus 2 which is pretty good(I know there is a gap but no one has ever punished me for it since her release). You can also always go into rekka pressure after b3(which you and runway are severely downplaying btw). Hell b31 is only -4 which means you can get people trying to armor out with b2 and continue for a combo or pressure if they block the b2.

 

[ShredMinor]

DLC that where released had a tower dedicated to them for about a week in which people could try them out for free. You can also ask a friend who has the dlc to go into online practice with you and give you control of said character. Another option is to have a friend that you trust and game share their profile to get all the dlc. There are free options man.

Yeah I know that and I tried to take as many notes as possible but I think you'll agree there's nothing better than a good sit down and study in the lab and analyse things with your own thoughts and touch with the character

 

[SaltShaker]

@Youphemism @SaltShaker I basically agree with what you've both said. I know he's not as good as the top tiers or in the top 10. He's somewhere between mid and upper mid imo. While his reward isn't as great as some of the top tiers he's a very low risk variation with good space control, good defensive options and "meh" offense. I don't believe that offense is just an autowin in this game, you have to work harder on defense sure, but just because it's harder doesn't mean it can't be just as good as an offensive playstyle and Kano has a pretty good defensive toolkit.

Offense isn't an Autowin by any means, but when your offense is legit one of the worst in the game, your zoning is mediocre at best, and all you have is great footsie that lead to minimal advantages/benefits it doesn't add up. I argued with Coach Steve for months that it was his skill level carrying the character and not the character being good, and last week I fought his new main, Quan Chi lol.

Cyber just can't be Upper Mid. Does Cyber Kano seem as strong as say, Deceptive Reptile? If you consider Top Tier Summoner, Lao, etc. If you consider high tier D'Vorah, Erron, etc. Then there's no way he can be considered as good as the Upper Mid class of Liu, Reptile, Kitana's of the world. Think about the grouping of the characters and he is clearly outclassed in the category. He's surely better than the Jason's and Kenshi's of the game, but he looks out of place when classified next to other characters who are Upper Mid tier.

If he had some form of good (in MKX terms) offense like his old B1 or his ExKnives were more plus or something else cheap he'd probably be a top tier, but unfortunately he doesn't.

Would he even be top tier? His damage outside the corner would still be low. He would still have no OH let alone an OH starter. Etc. If he had the recovery of his old B1 but it was slightly negative it would be a great help, but instead he has nothing in the way of pressure except +5 EX Knives that people with MU knowledge armor your follow up or backdash to full combo you lol. Pretty much every zoning character in this game has either high damage, zoning combo convert ability, strong pressure to go with zoning, strong mixups, multiple screen placements of strong zoning tools, or even combined versions of all of this except Cyber and Kenshi.

He could get old B1 at -2 and +15 EX Knives and THEN he would be Upper Mid tier, but still inferior to Top Tiers like Tempest Lao, and High Tiers like D'Vorah. I think he just suffers from "Destroyed If Don't Know The MatchUp Syndrome" which makes him look better than what he really is.

 

[ShredMinor]

Yes. In fact she does. Same goes for almost any other mid tier character.

I'm not really bitching, but kitana is pretty safe which can make her hard to open up when playing a good kitana who can defend. Also, this shouldn't be taken too seriously. This thread is light hearted and should be taken as such, I'm only adding my fuel to this lovely warm fire

 

[B. Shazzy]

@Shyyzmm

Where do you think Tanya stands if she not top 5?

I'm not gonna get into everything because I Dont have many good Tanya's to play and show me where all the gaps but I still think her pressure is better then your making it out to be.

if it was as easy as your making it out to be you wouldn't see so many ppl struggle with it and if I'm wrong correct me but doesn't she have an answer for her negative frames so if you try something she can punish so its still a guess for both players kinda

If any Tanya players read this and are on xbox add me so I can get some MU experience

My reasons are scattered through this thread but to sunmarize:

Cons: She's too meter reliant in her pressure, lacks safety, gaps everywhere, trash meterless damage and less than avergae damage, mixups are one dimensional medium risk low reward

Pros: great meter build, decent projectile, good armor, good normals, airdash

Kobu isn't a bad variation and I would be completely fine with Tanya as a character if they made supported her other variations. She'll need it down the line. I could name 8 characters that I know for sure are better than her, but I couldn't accurately place her on a complete tier list because I don't have one.

 

[HuttonMD]

My reasons are scattered through this thread but to sunmarize:

Cons: She's too meter reliant in her pressure, lacks safety, gaps everywhere, trash meterless damage and less than avergae damage, mixups are one dimensional medium risk low reward

Pros: great meter build, decent projectile, good armor, good normals, airdash

Kobu isn't a bad variation and I would be completely fine with Tanya as a character if they made supported her other variations. She'll need it down the line. I could name 8 characters that I know for sure are better than her, but I couldn't accurately place her on a complete tier list because I don't have one.

Makes sense but I would change meter reliance as a con if one of her pros is meter building. But the rest makes sense and I can't really argue because I Dont play to many Tanya's

 

[aieches]

My reasons are scattered through this thread but to sunmarize:

Cons: She's too meter reliant in her pressure, lacks safety, gaps everywhere, trash meterless damage and less than avergae damage, mixups are one dimensional medium risk low reward

Pros: great meter build, decent projectile, good armor, good normals, airdash

Kobu isn't a bad variation and I would be completely fine with Tanya as a character if they made supported her other variations. She'll need it down the line. I could name 8 characters that I know for sure are better than her, but I couldn't accurately place her on a complete tier list because I don't have one.

im not getting into this but i just want to point out ^

how can the con be she too reliant when the pro is that shes great at building it? that would just be natural mechanics would it not?

 

[The_Tile]

im not getting into this but i just want to point out ^

how can the con be she too reliant when the pro is that shes great at building it? that would just be natural mechanics would it not?

There's no point. Just leave him be.

 

[B. Shazzy]

If you're getting away teleport then you are probably inputting the b3 too fast after the tele-cancel. I had the same problem but didnt after I made sure to not input b3 until a few frames after the tele-cancel. Maybe the patch changed it, I dunno.

That being said going for b3 after a tele cancel is indeed pretty pointless. Its better to do b1 2+4 pressure to get more pressure.



You can get plus frames off of rekkas if you do a fully delayed EX third rekka.

As for your second paragraph the b3 doesnt have to hit to be useful. B321 is still plus 2 which is pretty good(I know there is a gap but no one has ever punished me for it since her release). You can also always go into rekka pressure after b3(which you and runway are severely downplaying btw). Hell b31 is only -4 which means you can get people trying to armor out with b2 and continue for a combo or pressure if they block the b2.

See, I just don't think we're on the same page and that's the core issue. You gotta think long-term for the character. Online ranked guys aren't punishing it of course, and i'm sure those are the same guys coming to tym saying tanya is top 5.

B31 baits are high risk low reward. B2 is is punishable and most armor will beat b2 xx rekka, it's too slow. So not only am I risking a double high after -4 on a guess, it's punishable if they just block. Which isn't a scary thing because +2 b314 which doesn't mean much in mkx, trust me.

Imo the 3rd rekka, disregarding the risk it takes to get there in the first place, shouldn't be an issue. Opponents should be ready to backdash it and punish.

 

[Zoidberg747]

My reasons are scattered through this thread but to sunmarize:

Cons: She's too meter reliant in her pressure, lacks safety, gaps everywhere, trash meterless damage and less than avergae damage, mixups are one dimensional medium risk low reward

Pros: great meter build, decent projectile, good armor, good normals, airdash

Kobu isn't a bad variation and I would be completely fine with Tanya as a character if they made supported her other variations. She'll need it down the line. I could name 8 characters that I know for sure are better than her, but I couldn't accurately place her on a complete tier list because I don't have one.

I disagree with some of that:

Shes too meter reliant: This is irrelevant becuase she builds a ridiculous amount of meter anyway. She also has good offense without meter although she can't capitalize nearly as well.

Lacks safety: Not true at all. B1 2+4 is completely safe, b31 is completely safe, f2 is completely safe, most of here tele cancels are still safe(except b1 2+4 ) The only string of hers that is unsafe is b2, and it's -7 which is teetering the line. I get you were probably talking about rekkas but I would like to point out that any rekka string can be made safe with a bar and EX rekkas are also safe.

Gaps everywhere: She has a lot of gaps but tbh if you condition your opponents properly you can get around them most of the time(unless they play KL).

Mixups being medium risk low reward: I don't think a combo is ever a low reward. Keep in mind I am talking about rekkas hitting and being confirmed for a full combo. Its more medium risk medium reward.

Pros:

Decent Projectile: I actually think her projectile is overrated. Ive never found it particularly useful when people realize its a mid and a lot of characters can punish her for trying to throw it carelessly.

I would also add chip damage to pros. She has at worst the 2nd best chip damage in the game(FF liu Kang may be higher). Her chip damage is absolutely ridiculous, you can still get like 50% chip damage with 3 bars(against characters that EX tonfa doesnt whiff on lol).

I dont really feel I have enough knowledge of other characters to accurately put her in a tier list, but I think she is in a good place atm. I wouldnt mind buffs to the other variations but I dont know if I would say they are needed.

 

[B. Shazzy]

im not getting into this but i just want to point out ^

how can the con be she too reliant when the pro is that shes great at building it? that would just be natural mechanics would it not?

Because there's a difference between using meter to extend pressure or create new mixups and actually having to depend on it?

Did you miss the part where I said she has below average damage and even worse meterless damage? These things create context for a character's tools and what they can or can't do. If I'm spending meter just to stay alive, my damage is suffering. Combine that with lack of mixups and what do you have?

I mean, really now

 

[Zoidberg747]

See, I just don't think we're on the same page and that's the core issue. You gotta think long-term for the character. Online ranked guys aren't punishing it of course, and i'm sure those are the same guys coming to tym saying tanya is top 5.

B31 baits are high risk low reward. B2 is is punishable and most armor will beat b2 xx rekka, it's too slow. So not only am I risking a double high after -4 on a guess, it's punishable if they just block. Which isn't a scary thing because +2 which doesn't mean much in mkx, trust me.

Imo the 3rd rekka, disregarding the risk it takes to get there in the first place, shouldn't be an issue. Opponents should be ready to backdash it and punish.

I dont ever play online. Im talking offline with people who I have told there is a gap, they still dont punish because they dont want to risk me baiting them(because as you said +2 isnt that huge of a deal). Ive even played against some YOMI guys that didnt punish the gap, although that was casuals and they didnt need to murder me anyway.

Are you saying that the 3rd rekka can be backdashed if there are no gaps put in the rekka string? Or are you talking about when it is delayed? If the former I will admit I didn't know that. There isnt a huge risk getting to the plus frames because if they try to armor out of the delayed 3rd rekka the EX one is two hits which beats most armored moves(but not all). Its just character dependent.

 

[Youphemism]

@Youphemism @SaltShaker I basically agree with what you've both said. I know he's not as good as the top tiers or in the top 10. He's somewhere between mid and upper mid imo. While his reward isn't as great as some of the top tiers he's a very low risk variation with good space control, good defensive options and "meh" offense. I don't believe that offense is just an autowin in this game, you have to work harder on defense sure, but just because it's harder doesn't mean it can't be just as good as an offensive playstyle and Kano has a pretty good defensive toolkit.

If he had some form of good (in MKX terms) offense like his old B1 or his ExKnives were more plus or something else cheap he'd probably be a top tier, but unfortunately he doesn't.

We're not saying his playstyle can't be effective but, as you say, he doesn't get the same reward as the top tiers. Hell he doesn't even get the same reward as the mid tiers, most of them do the same or more meterless than he does for a bar. The problem is that they went too safe on the design. It should be either projectiles with good damage to make up for lack of combo damage or good combo damage so that the projectiles not being as good isn't so bad. In this case both his combo damage and projectile damage suffer and to compete with everyone else in damage you need to shred through meter.

The only way Cybernetic would be top tier is if they significantly increased the damage on his knives, significantly decreased the scaling on his combo extenders and made all his strings 2 or 3 frames more plus on block or something. Ex knives being more plus wouldn't make a difference because he needs meter for combos and defence more than he needs them for some plus frames. Saltshaker's covered it mostly.

 

[B. Shazzy]

I dont ever play online. Im talking offline with people who I have told there is a gap, they still dont punish because they dont want to risk me baiting them(because as you said +2 isnt that huge of a deal). Ive even played against some YOMI guys that didnt punish the gap, although that was casuals and they didnt need to murder me anyway.

Are you saying that the 3rd rekka can be backdashed if there are no gaps put in the rekka string? Or are you talking about when it is delayed? If the former I will admit I didn't know that. There isnt a huge risk getting to the plus frames because if they try to armor out of the delayed 3rd rekka the EX one is two hits which beats most armored moves(but not all). Its just character dependent.

Playing offline doesn't guarantee a player's mu knowledge or even skill, right? No offense, but it's irrelevant if someone doesn't choose to do or not do something, the option's always there and that's important. The bait is risky for tanya because she wouldn't get half of what the opponent would if he makes the right read in the situation. Of course, the opponent can just backdash b312 for free everytime, so...

Yes, In both sitautions they can backdash ex rekka. And I'm saying the risk is coming from the rekka guessing game of the 2 hits prior to the third. Still gotta play that game as well.

 

[B. Shazzy]

@Zoidberg747 I'm not trying to downplay this character, I want to make sure attention is brought to her problems so by the time Kp2 rolls around I can get some support for my buff Tanya threads.

The amount of misinformation for this character is for sure top 5. Indecisive told me yesterday that max delayed rekkas was +15, while lamenting that jax's f21 wasn't able to be tick throwed off of. Like, I'm really scared of what crazy weird notions these people have about this character.

 

[HeroesNZ]

For once I agree with Shaz. Tanya's good but she's hella upplayed by so many people that are still probably respecting Tele cancels like they're a blockstring. If you don't know the Tanya MU you get bodied for pressing buttons when you shouldn't and she's also helped by online delay so that's probably where this upplaying is coming from. Top 10 sure, but top 2 or "broken"? Stahp.

 

[RunwayMafia]

Confirmed not a good player...RIP

Lol no. In fact, last time we played, I commented on how you were starting to punish my rekkas and I was impressed.

That THOT that liked your post, however, mmmmhmmmmm. *snaps finger* lol

 

[B. Shazzy]

I disagree with some of that:

Shes too meter reliant: This is irrelevant becuase she builds a ridiculous amount of meter anyway. She also has good offense without meter although she can't capitalize nearly as well.

Lacks safety: Not true at all. B1 2+4 is completely safe, b31 is completely safe, f2 is completely safe, most of here tele cancels are still safe(except b1 2+4 ) The only string of hers that is unsafe is b2, and it's -7 which is teetering the line. I get you were probably talking about rekkas but I would like to point out that any rekka string can be made safe with a bar and EX rekkas are also safe.

Gaps everywhere: She has a lot of gaps but tbh if you condition your opponents properly you can get around them most of the time(unless they play KL).

Mixups being medium risk low reward: I don't think a combo is ever a low reward. Keep in mind I am talking about rekkas hitting and being confirmed for a full combo. Its more medium risk medium reward.

Pros:

Decent Projectile: I actually think her projectile is overrated. Ive never found it particularly useful when people realize its a mid and a lot of characters can punish her for trying to throw it carelessly.

I would also add chip damage to pros. She has at worst the 2nd best chip damage in the game(FF liu Kang may be higher). Her chip damage is absolutely ridiculous, you can still get like 50% chip damage with 3 bars(against characters that EX tonfa doesnt whiff on lol).

I dont really feel I have enough knowledge of other characters to accurately put her in a tier list, but I think she is in a good place atm. I wouldnt mind buffs to the other variations but I dont know if I would say they are needed.

Safety: Context. Only doing b1 2+4, F2, b31... this doesn't get you anywhere. Tanya's aren't doing his, man... you have to commit to ex tonfa which can be neutral ducked after your best string or armored or just straight up full combo punished . Either that or you're playing the rekka game. Which everyone thinks is so godlike for tanya but breaking it down it's... just okay. First rekka is -7, the second is -9 at least and if you can't backdash the third I don't what to tell you.

So not only isn't it Tanya's turn to push a button... she can be punished or armor if she staggers the second rekka, provided she wasn't armored between the first and the second. The first stagger rekka being -6, Tanya needs to armor to counter hit... and what's the result? To go for the reset setup for 11% into more ghetto -frames into armor pressure? Or if she wants to actually get damage launch them but then she's spending 2 bars for low 30%? How is that not low reward? Kotal Khan gets 32% for 1 bar for the same situation - minus frames into armor but he's even more safe than her. Smells like top 5 to me.


Now combine that with her gaps, trash meterless damage, her no-legit-mixups and meter dependency already spent pressuring you in the first place (just so you guys know, she has max 3 bars like everyone else, ) and you can't tell me this character is that good.

B2 is more than -7. btw it's closer to -11 And I alread explained why the b31 stagger is trash

 

[MrProfDrPepper]

NO character need insane range on air attacks, do they? anti airs already suck...

lasher needs it

 

[Zoidberg747]

Playing offline doesn't guarantee a player's mu knowledge or even skill, right? No offense, but it's irrelevant if someone doesn't choose to do or not do something, the option's always there and that's important. The bait is risky for tanya because she wouldn't get half of what the opponent would if he makes the right read in the situation. Of course, the opponent can just backdash b312 for free everytime, so...

Yes, In both sitautions they can backdash ex rekka. And I'm saying the risk is coming from the rekka guessing game of the 2 hits prior to the third. Still gotta play that game as well.

You referred to online randoms which is why I stated that I dont play offline. Plus a lot of these tactics I am saying worked against YOMI players who arguably have more Tanya experience than anyone(and they all played KL at the time too).

A bait's risk depends entirely on the character. Against certain characters that have exploitable gaps the risk is in her favor because even if they pressure she has a SAFE armored reversal to get out. There are very few characters that have an advantage pressuring Tanya if the Tanya player has done their homework and knows when to armor. EX rekkas are more than likely the reason she is top 5. They are one of the best Armored reversals in the game.

Ill have to test the backdash thing, thats interesting. But you dont have to take a risk on the first two hits because you can leave no gap between any of them and just MB the last one to be safe. Then after you do that a few times you can delay the 3rd one non-MB'd and get plus frames.

 

[TopTierHarley]

Lol no. In fact, last time we played, I commented on how you were starting to punish my rekkas and I was impressed.

That THOT that liked your post, however, mmmmhmmmmm. *snaps finger* lol

Lmao, I love you

 

[Laos_boy]

Lol no. In fact, last time we played, I commented on how you were starting to punish my rekkas and I was impressed.

That THOT that liked your post, however, mmmmhmmmmm. *snaps finger* lol

Oooh gurl
This slut just threw shade, cute.
Its about to go down