[Discussion] "This character is super easy to use"

[Pterodactyl]

It's definitely a game thing.

If something is easily abusable then it's going to be easily abused. Period.

There have been PLENTY of things in NRS games in the past that have been so abusable that it becomes an alternative to your main character even if you know your main character more.

With less reliance on crazy abusable things in MK11, I honestly from my heart think that things won't be this way as much. With the kustomization system things could truly be perfect. We'll just have to wait, but yeah.

I think them implements strong universal defensive tools already eliminates a lot of that bad potential.

 

[Tony at Home]

Did you think it was ok that whiteboi beat bdon's fate with a few day old deadshot very very deep into a major or like examples?

To be clear, it wasn't just a 2 day Deadshot being able to beat just _any_ character. It was a 2 day Deadshot fighting what was an 8-2 matchup in his favor.

 

[Circus]

To be clear, it wasn't just a 2 day Deadshot being able to beat just _any_ character. It was a 2 day Deadshot fighting what was an 8-2 matchup in his favor.

This is exactly my point here.

Injustice2 had sooooo many matchups that were 7-3 and 8-2.

And it was generally always for the same exact reason:
The really good zoning/keep-out made it so difficult for the offender while the person zoning stayed as safe as can be.

Deadshot and Captain Cold weren't even top tier.... but the fact that they had so many obnoxious 7-3 and 8-2 matchups vs so much of the cast made it so it was just a bad idea not to have a character like that in your pocket in tournaments.
(everyone had a pocket Deadshot and Sonic Fox had a pocket Deadshot AND Captain Cold)

It was a balance thing.


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Injustice2 just is not a good example as far as the "I'm a people maining 2-3 characters at a high level) argument.

 

[portent]

@PLAYING TO WIN

Before anything, I am NOT good at Injustice 2, I just enjoy the crap out of it.

So, as an older gamer, particularly from the SF2 and MK arcade days, we were always learning every character. None of those games have particularly heavy execution, yet the SF2 series in particular still has incredible depth and tech is still being found to this day.

I completely enjoy being able to put in some time learning characters and getting more from my game than just labbing and grinding one single character for years and years. It is very enjoyable to me to see games being made where the barrier of execution is just high enough that you can't just mash and watch combos happen, but you have to be competent with specials, and at least have a game plan regardless of what character you're using and who you're fighting against. This allows me to begin learning more than just a single character for years. Instead, I can spend a couple weeks and move to the next, giving me vital information on each character, and potentially learn strategies to beat them.

I don't think it's bad AT ALL to see more players learning more characters. I think it makes it exciting to see when a player who is known for using or maining a single character suddenly whips out 3 or 4 different characters in a tournament because they can.

While you can say that having to spend years to learn a single character increases longevity, the opposite argument could be made as well. Being forced to stick to your main because you've committed so much time can get boring and cause you to drop a game. In that light, being able to relatively easily pick up and begin learning, at a competent level, multiple characters, can also increase the longevity and excitement of a game.

 

[JDM]

Agreed wholeheartedly p2w. Some responses by people who clearly don't play competitively really grosses me out. Implying stuff like execution shouldn't matter is the scrubbiest mindset to have imo.

I worked in my execution so hard for mvc3. Learning plink dashing and lightning loops. And when my execution failed me I faced reprucussions for it. That's how it should be. If I hadn't had a lot of executional issues early and didn't master it I wouldn't have felt such pride in my play. And even worse, if the combos were indeed easier I would have been beating people I lost to from execution errors. Idk why newer age players consider harder execution a bad thing? Dumbing down games so everyone can compete more comfortably lowers the top level skill one can attain and it's painfully obvious in current games where new players are randomly beating God's they have no chance of beating in older titles. It happens all the time in sfv.

 

[Marlow]

(everyone had a pocket Deadshot and Sonic Fox had a pocket Deadshot AND Captain Cold)

That wasn't really a long term thing though. After a little bit of time and some Nerfs Deadshot was pretty much non-existent. At least in terms of the competative scene. Also, outside of Sonic Fox I don't recall seeing too many Captain Colds in competative play.

 

[aldazo]

... I think you can expect to hear "this character is easy to use" on every single kombat kast, because tournament players really aren't the target audience. ...

I think they will say "easy to use, hard to master" the old trick to appeal to casual and pros alike.

 

[M2Dave]

Agreed wholeheartedly p2w. Some responses by people who clearly don't play competitively really grosses me out. Implying stuff like execution shouldn't matter is the scrubbiest mindset to have imo.

This mentality only exists in the NRS community, which we know is ten years behind every other fighting game community. Difficult inputs for amplified special moves were reverted back to normal for this reason.

 

[Badboy Takuma]

I am speaking more to the point of a counter pick meta. Did you think it was ok that whiteboi beat bdon's fate with a few day old deadshot very very deep into a major or like examples?

how do you know that he played DS just for a few days?

 

[neveradestroyer]

At last one of the zoning zealots realized how catastrophically brain-dead the zoning style can be. Specially in NRS games were there's no collision of projectiles nor a way to dodge it like Tekken. Have fun seeing the same move over and over again and the emergency plan if They got in.

 

[Badboy Takuma]

At last one of the zoning zealots realized how catastrophically brain-dead the zoning style can be.

Lmao!

 

[Jynks]

Execution shouldn't be the skill barrier. It should be your reads, knowledge of punishes/combos, situational awareness, spacing, etc.

quote for truth. This is basically the end of the thread. Any argument against this is total BS.

 

[spidey300]

i'm definitely tired of hearing them say easy to use or simplified

 

[spidey300]

While I don't doubt that NRS wants to make many characters easier to use, I think you can expect to hear "this character is easy to use" on every single kombat kast, because tournament players really aren't the target audience. The majority of the tens of thousands of people watching want to hear that they can pick up and play easily. Saying a character is difficult to use during the cast is gonna be a huge turnoff for the majority of watchers. I don't think we'll know how easy or difficult any character is to use until we get our hands on the game.

maybe they just shouldn't go on record to say if a character is easy or difficult to use. just say the character is fun and what aspects of the character are fun

 

[spidey300]

I think the success of DBFZ showed developers that the line between accessibility and depth isn’t that difficult to walk after all. Sure the core mechanics of that game are different but it still showcased a world in which knowledge and skill become much faster pathways to mastery without unnecessary execution barriers in the way. It’s still the Sonic Foxes and Kazunokos of the world dominating at the highest level too, so the idea that anyone could pick up any character in a day and win is total horseshit and has more to do with gameplay balance than ease of execution in the first place anyway.

i mean it's a completely different thing when it comes to tag fighters. it usually isn't the execution that puts people off but the idea of learning 3 characters and dealing with someone else's 3 characters.

 

[spidey300]

This mentality only exists in the NRS community, which we know is ten years behind every other fighting game community. Difficult inputs for amplified special moves were reverted back to normal for this reason.

it's starting to become apparent in more communities though. sf5. tag fighters such as bbtag. rumors about anime fighters like GG. a lot of these devs want to go the way of easy, simplification, and accessibility.

 

[Sablicious]

Why not make every special a single button press (no directional inputs) and tied to a "regen" mechanic, à la the Fatal Blow or in that "Rising Thunder" game (and / or tied to a dedicated [regenerating] meter); normal strings that are inherently all high-low / 50-50's, and do not require any 'command' inputs; Brutalities automatic for the less proactive player (metric: less button inputs) and Fatalities automatic after victory is achieved--where an aforementioned Brutality has not activated; combo damage scaling only for the leading player; Fatal Blows accessible only to the trailing player; Fatal Blows unblockable only for the trailing player; instead of "YOU WIN!" or "YOU LOSE!", "THANK YOU =)" and "LET'S BE FRIENDS"; Shao Kahn's snarky laughter replaced with the infantile giggling of a weeby loli...(?)

I mean, it's all "mind games" anyway, right?... Like in real life: having never trained for anything--ever--one saunters into a dojo, limbers up for 90 seconds, and starts throwing jumping back kicks and working the wooden dummy like Ip Man... Amirite or amirite?

͝° ͜ʖ͡°

 

[Badboy Takuma]

quote for truth. This is basically the end of the thread. Any argument against this is total BS.

i have an argument though.
the main reason i am reading your bs right now is because nrs games have no execution barrier.

 

[B. Shazzy]

Every fighting game has characters that are easy to use (Ryu) and characters that are not (SF4 Viper). Just because a character is easy to understand and execute with (Ryu) does not mean that it is easy to *win* with that character. As a Street Fighter player you should know this.

Just like every other fighting game, MK11 will have characters with lower barriers to execution, and ones with more complex mechanics and gameplan considerations. It’s a spectrum.

However, what you’re speaking to is a game balance issue, and is totally separate from what the devs were describing in that stream.

If you give a character, any character, a single that can dominate most of the cast, it has detrimental effects on the meta. That isn’t about execution barrier, it’s just bad balance.

pretty sure im the only street fighter playere here bro lul

 

[Johnny Based Cage]

Why not make every copy of MK11 come with a custom controller you have to learn just to be able to even play the game in the first place, so you can really show these fuckin casuals what a 1337 pro looks like.

"Oh that's cute, you hit buttons and some directional inputs to throw fireballs? Check out what real execution looks like, brah."

 

[Jynks]

i have an argument though.
the main reason i am reading your bs right now is because nrs games have no execution barrier.

that's not an argument. it is a back handed insult.

 

[666 I HazeOner]

Make it so hard so you have a handfull of players at tournaments and some spare change as a pot bonus.

 

[Circus]

I think the fear of people picking up multiple characters has been put to rest to a certain extent.

The main thing that many people are going back and forth on now is that lowering the skill gap appeals to "scrubs".

I STRONGLY suggest people watch this video if you haven't. It's a really interesting video on lowering the skill gap by my favorite fighting game channel, Core-A-Gaming.

It'll make both sides of this argument understand why people are so up in arms about their stance on the "this character is easy" mess.

If you're not going to watch the whole video, at least watch 1:54 - 2:35 for a TLDR.

 

[Zhidoreptiloid]

"Easy to learn, hard to master". Make difficult inputs in game and formula is crashed.
You make depth of game with MU or difficulty with realisation of character moves, but not input.
For example, SC6 - most of characters have a simple inputs and combos, but game is difficult AF bicoz of hard MU and hundreads of details in MU.
You can make 2-3 heave execution chararcters for nolifers, but heavy execution must give light advantage, not heavy like MK9 kabal or MKX characters with cancels pre-patch

 

[Killusion]

I agree. Characters really shouldn't be super easy to master and there shouldn't be any 8-2 matchups. It's a legit concern for sure, so let's hope that the characters have good amount of depth.

It's interesting that you chose to give KOF and Tekken as examples. Aren't character tools in those games so similar that the top players could pretty much beat mid-level players consistently with random select? That's what I've heard from experts anyway, that would never happen in MVC, GG or Street Fighter.