(Discussion) Custom Variations and tournament play.

[PLAYING TO WIN]

MK11 has been very secretive about tournament standards concerning ability moves despite numerous requests in multiple media outlets asking for clarification. Their silence can only mean two things listed below. When considering the tournament scene, there are some very serious questions that need answered if full customization will be allowed.

Nertherrealm's silence on this matter can only mean:

• they are not sure
• they are getting ready to present at a c2e2 type event of have something specifically planned for its rollout

Regardless of netherrealm's plans, there are a large amount of factors to consider. I will lay these out for discussion.

• If customization is allowed, how will you know what moves your opponent picked? When you are at a major and fighting in your 7th set of the day and are in a game five, I PROMISE you WILL NOT remember what moves they picked. If this is indeed the route NRS chooses then the icons in the ability selection menu will need to be on the screen at all times during game play.

• Many people are saying that full customization will add to the depth of the game and longevity. This is not accurate. The very talented top players will quickly decipher the best selection and moves sets for a character. There are moves that are so strong that you will almost have to pick it (i.e. Skarlet Siphon or Baraka launching stab move). Allowing full customization will actually showcase less moves on the main tournament stages as top players will be using one, maybe two variations.

• Tournament logistics and counter pick issue. Player Alpha is fighting player Beta. A wins, B goes to edit abilities to counter A's zoning, B wins, A goes and picks something that counters player B's move set, et cetera et cetera. Time, viewer ease and a Paper, Rock, Scissors mentality that will be worse than Injustice 2 at its peak.

• Balance will be nearly impossible without making moves either broken or useless. With each character having what appears to be 7-12 abilities they need to compliment each other appropriately. This will only be achieved in an MKX variation style system. Beta Kabal is the perfect example of a character being potentially broken by putting together the right moves. Take the restand or the jump saw away and the character begins to have clear deficits as every character in a fighting game should.

• The player should be number one when considering the standards. Full customization might be a good thing for viewers but it will take away from the tournament players experience. I will argue full customization will not be good for viewers because they will be only seeing one version of each character. I trust Paulo and NRS to give us several variations of a character like MKX that will be viable at a tournament level. This will also give NRS more freedom to make some moves strong or weaker depending on its variation. Something that will not be possible with full customization.

@General M2Dave comment about blind picks. How would that work lol.

 

[khumbolawo87]

I too would much rather have preset variations for tournament play. Good read

Sent from my Redmi Note 5 using Tapatalk

 

[Saboteur-6]

I don't see how there can conceivably be wide open customization for tournament play. Too many variables to balance. I think preset variations are most likely.

Then again, NRS has obviously given it a lot of thought given their secrecy so maybe they can come at it in a way we're not anticipating?

 

[JBeezYBabY]

Customization would be a great start for tournament play. Have each player have a certain amount of time to configure their controls and moveset. And if they counter pick then they have the same amount of time to choose their custom or character. Its not that hard to manage unless you're a degenerate asshole who just stalls, then that person will be disqualified.

I think people are freaking out over little things and trying to make it more complicated than it is.

Also, if customs prove to not work, then we can go back to regular presets. Simple.

BUT I will add some characters only 2 moves in their presets like Skarlet while others have 3. So either NRS changes this for preset play, or we stick with customs. I say try customs first.

 

[DragonofDadashov24]

Too much to memorize again.
I’m very sure kustom isn’t going to bein tourneys. Maybe in majors, but I’m notsure

 

[PLAYING TO WIN]

I don't see how there can conceivably be wide open customization for tournament play. Too many variables to balance. I think preset variations are most likely.

Then again, NRS has obviously given it a lot of thought given their secrecy so maybe they can come at it in a way we're not anticipating?

I would be amenable to setting two ability slots to standard and allowing us to pick one, one slot ability.

This will be like a street fighter v-trigger and allow for some personality in the tournament scene.

Of course the selected move would need to be clearly show on the screen at all times

 

[Marinjuana]

• If customization is allowed, how will you know what moves your opponent picked? When you are at a major and fighting in your 7th set of the day and are in a game five, I PROMISE you WILL NOT remember what moves they picked. If this is indeed the route NRS chooses then the icons in the ability selection menu will need to be on the screen at all times during game play.

• Many people are saying that full customization will add to the depth of the game and longevity. This is not accurate. The very talented top players will quickly decipher the best selection and moves sets for a character. There are moves that are so strong that you will almost have to pick it (i.e. Skarlet Siphon or Baraka launching stab move). Allowing full customization will actually showcase less moves on the main tournament stages as top players will be using one, maybe two variations.

• Tournament logistics and counter pick issue. Player Alpha is fighting player Beta. A wins, B goes to edit abilities to counter A's zoning, B wins, A goes and picks something that counters player B's move set, et cetera et cetera. Time, viewer ease and a Paper, Rock, Scissors mentality that will be worse than Injustice 2 at its peak.

• Balance will be nearly impossible without making moves either broken or useless. With each character having what appears to be 7-12 abilities they need to compliment each other appropriately. This will only be achieved in an MKX variation style system. Beta Kabal is the perfect example of a character being potentially broken by putting together the right moves. Take the restand or the jump saw away and the character begins to have clear deficits as every character in a fighting game should.

• The player should be number one when considering the standards. Full customization might be a good thing for viewers but it will take away from the tournament players experience. I will argue full customization will not be good for viewers because they will be only seeing one version of each character. I trust Paulo and NRS to give us several variations of a character like MKX that will be viable at a tournament level. This will also give NRS more freedom to make some moves strong or weaker depending on its variation. Something that will not be possible with full customization.

1. Everyone seems to be in agreement that there should be more visual indication as to what moves are selected, regardless if they believe kustom variations should be tourney standard or not.

2. You are just assuming a lot here and justifying your opinion based of beta balance. Regardless, you aren't mentioning how the same problem exists in preset variations.

3. I don't think it's a bad thing if someone changes their super on counter pick in Third Strike and I don't see the issue with people changing an ability to better counter a match. You won't see counter picking not be a thing until NRS starts adding 100+ moves like Tekken or making the game super execution heavy.(As in probably never.)

4. You don't justify your point here. You aren't advocating for no variations, you are advocating for preset variations. You have to explain why that system is superior to kustom variations and not just list off problems with both systems.

5. "Full customization might be a good thing for viewers but it will take away from the tournament players experience. I will argue full customization will not be good for viewers because they will be only seeing one version of each character." Explain

 

[PLAYING TO WIN]

1. Everyone seems to be in agreement that there should be more visual indication as to what moves are selected, regardless if they believe kustom variations should be tourney standard or not.

2. You are just assuming a lot here and justifying your opinion based of beta balance. Regardless, you aren't mentioning how the same problem exists in preset variations.

3. I don't think it's a bad thing if someone changes their super on counter pick in Third Strike and I don't see the issue with people changing an ability to better counter a match. You won't see counter picking not be a thing until NRS starts adding 100+ moves like Tekken or making the game super execution heavy.(As in probably never.)

4. You don't justify your point here. You aren't advocating for no variations, you are advocating for preset variations. You have to explain why that system is superior to kustom variations and not just list off problems with both systems.

5. "Full customization might be a good thing for viewers but it will take away from the tournament players experience. I will argue full customization will not be good for viewers because they will be only seeing one version of each character." Explain

I will respond longer later as I am driving right now but I tried to limit my bias in the post. As for number four and your response I tried to keep this as a discussion and offer a little bit for both sides

 

[freerf245]

Ok first of all I am fucking TIRED of people saying how "broken" Kabal was in the beta. He wasn't even well above most characters in the beta. He was good, but saying he was potentially broken with the correct abilities equipped is stupid. As for not knowing what moves are equipped, I don't see how displaying the moves during loading screens (similar to Injustice 2) wouldn't give you all the info you need to know about their moveset. If you really need it displayed DURING GAMEPLAY than you have a memory problem. And the counterpicking point makes zero sense. Arguing that people will build their loadout around giving the opponents character the hardest time has no point to it. Even if there weren't custom loadouts, counterpicking is STILL going to exist through character matchups. Seriously, I don't see the problem with allowing custom loadouts. The preset variations in the beta, for the most part, were AWFUL and I would hate to be stuck with those for the rest of the games life.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

I agree with most of this. I don't think it would be the end of the world -- but I do think a lot of people aren't being totally realistic in their consideration of all the factors involved.

So at the very least, people should think about what it really means.

 

[Marinjuana]

And there's something that people never talk about and it's that splitting the player base between player match/gear mode and ranked/tourney mode is bad for the competitive scene in a subtle but significant way.

 

[kcd117]

MK11 has been very secretive about tournament standards concerning ability moves despite numerous requests in multiple media outlets asking for clarification. Their silence can only mean two things listed below. When considering the tournament scene, there are some very serious questions that need answered if full customization will be allowed.

Nertherrealm's silence on this matter can only mean:

• they are not sure
• they are getting ready to present at a c2e2 type event of have something specifically planned for its rollout

Regardless of netherrealm's plans, there are a large amount of factors to consider. I will lay these out for discussion.

• If customization is allowed, how will you know what moves your opponent picked? When you are at a major and fighting in your 7th set of the day and are in a game five, I PROMISE you WILL NOT remember what moves they picked. If this is indeed the route NRS chooses then the icons in the ability selection menu will need to be on the screen at all times during game play.

• Many people are saying that full customization will add to the depth of the game and longevity. This is not accurate. The very talented top players will quickly decipher the best selection and moves sets for a character. There are moves that are so strong that you will almost have to pick it (i.e. Skarlet Siphon or Baraka launching stab move). Allowing full customization will actually showcase less moves on the main tournament stages as top players will be using one, maybe two variations.

• Tournament logistics and counter pick issue. Player Alpha is fighting player Beta. A wins, B goes to edit abilities to counter A's zoning, B wins, A goes and picks something that counters player B's move set, et cetera et cetera. Time, viewer ease and a Paper, Rock, Scissors mentality that will be worse than Injustice 2 at its peak.

• Balance will be nearly impossible without making moves either broken or useless. With each character having what appears to be 7-12 abilities they need to compliment each other appropriately. This will only be achieved in an MKX variation style system. Beta Kabal is the perfect example of a character being potentially broken by putting together the right moves. Take the restand or the jump saw away and the character begins to have clear deficits as every character in a fighting game should.

• The player should be number one when considering the standards. Full customization might be a good thing for viewers but it will take away from the tournament players experience. I will argue full customization will not be good for viewers because they will be only seeing one version of each character. I trust Paulo and NRS to give us several variations of a character like MKX that will be viable at a tournament level. This will also give NRS more freedom to make some moves strong or weaker depending on its variation. Something that will not be possible with full customization.

I'll share my opinion on the topics below:

1 - Not that hard, I remember knowing exactly what my opponent had as soon as they picked their character bc it shows in the selection screen. It could be more visible but I don't see "bad memory" being a game issue.

2 - I don't think you have any evidence for that. What we have is evidence that preset variations worked exactly the way you said. Btw MK11 Baraka has huge dmg with gutted but struggles to open people up, or he can have Kabob + Cmd grab in a very disruptive blender but less dmg.

3 - The sooner the "counterpick is a bad thing" mentality dies in this community the better, yeah it is fun being able to play a character you like against everyone but if you have a bad matchup you face two options, you either grind the hell out of it to never be less prepared than the other player and to take advantage of everything or you pick someone else, if a player doesn't wanna do that it's fine, but let's not pretend counterpick is unfair. With decent money on the line now if you are serious about competing you should put yourself in the best situation to win you can during every match, that includes counterpicking when you have to, if people just do it for fun then they are very welcome to play as many 3-7s as they want in tourny for the giggles.

4 - Again, there is no evidence to support that. Your example can even be used against your point in this one. IF Kabal turned out to be broken with those two moves (which is very unlikely) the most simple way to solve the issue without killing the character would be to make both the air saw and the restand 2-slot abilities or make them conflict.

5 - Kustom variations would keep things fresh and interesting for both the players and the viewers, I can't see it being a less hype game to play and watch bc it gives you more freedom and options to play different characters, this is a very counter-intuitive thought in my opinion.

 

[Xelz]

Good post. I'm leaning toward allowing kustom variations in tournament play with the caveat that selected moves should get icons on the screen to remind their opponent. There's plenty of room directly under the health bars for these.

Many of the concerns you mentioned would be true of preset variations, too. And heck, Injustice 2 has the same counter-pick problem without any variations whatsoever. Ultimately, this feels more like an argument for improved game balance rather than one for preset variations. And I think we're all in favor of better balance

Also, I'd like to see an efficient UI for selecting custom moves in a tournament setting to cut pre-match setup to a minimum. That said, lately I've watched plenty of tournament players check their iPhones and/or scroll through songs to play in their headphones/earpods pre-match. If we can afford to wait for players to choose their custom music playlist, then we can wait for them to select their custom move set.

 

[pure.Wasted]

Sorry, I'm not impressed by any of these arguments.

If customization is allowed, how will you know what moves your opponent picked? When you are at a major and fighting in your 7th set of the day and are in a game five, I PROMISE you WILL NOT remember what moves they picked.

And? Your opponent will kindly remind you in-game.

If it's your 7th set of the day, chances are it's your opponent's 7th set of the day as well. So either you can both remember (and it's on you for forgetting), or you both can't remember. Either way the playing field is perfectly balanced.

Many people are saying that full customization will add to the depth of the game and longevity. This is not accurate. The very talented top players will quickly decipher the best selection and moves sets for a character. There are moves that are so strong that you will almost have to pick it (i.e. Skarlet Siphon or Baraka launching stab move). Allowing full customization will actually showcase less moves on the main tournament stages as top players will be using one, maybe two variations.

While it may be true that MK9-style - with every move being available at the same time - would showcase more moves, there is no reason to believe that MK9 style is on the table at all. The alternative we seem to have is at best a copy of MKX, at worst a pared down version of MKX (with even fewer abilities per variation). Neither of those options would showcase more abilities in the long haul compared to full customization.

Tournament logistics and counter pick issue. Player Alpha is fighting player Beta. A wins, B goes to edit abilities to counter A's zoning, B wins, A goes and picks something that counters player B's move set, et cetera et cetera. Time, viewer ease and a Paper, Rock, Scissors mentality that will be worse than Injustice 2 at its peak.

You're making a crazy assumption, which is that for every single character's every possible loadout, every single other character has a clear hard counter loadout. This assumption is absurdly baseless.

Balance will be nearly impossible without making moves either broken or useless. With each character having what appears to be 7-12 abilities they need to compliment each other appropriately. This will only be achieved in an MKX variation style system. Beta Kabal is the perfect example of a character being potentially broken by putting together the right moves. Take the restand or the jump saw away and the character begins to have clear deficits as every character in a fighting game should.

...so... you just presented a problem and then immediately explained how easy the solution is? OK. Just nerf the overpowered move, problem solved. Balancing is in a way easier than ever because not only can NRS make every move stronger or weaker as necessary, but they can also adjust a move's opportunity cost by changing how many slots it takes up.

 

[PLAYING TO WIN]

I agree with most of this. I don't think it would be the end of the world -- but I do think a lot of people aren't being totally realistic in their consideration of all the factors involved.

So at the very least, people should think about what it really means.

That was my goal for this post. I know some of my bias came through but I tried to limit it

 

[Orochi]

Didnt ed boon say in an interview they were leaning towards preset variations with 1 custom ability or none.

 

[PLAYING TO WIN]

Didnt ed boon say in an interview they were leaning towards preset variations with 1 custom ability or none.

Yes he did. Tyler said on the combat cast that they were not ready to talk about it yet so nothing is set in stone

 

[freerf245]

My big problem with this is the default variations. They SUCK. I would rather not compete than be forced to use those.

 

[DDustiNN]

MK11 has been very secretive about tournament standards concerning ability moves despite numerous requests in multiple media outlets asking for clarification. Their silence can only mean two things listed below. When considering the tournament scene, there are some very serious questions that need answered if full customization will be allowed.

Nertherrealm's silence on this matter can only mean:

• they are not sure
• they are getting ready to present at a c2e2 type event of have something specifically planned for its rollout

Regardless of netherrealm's plans, there are a large amount of factors to consider. I will lay these out for discussion.

• If customization is allowed, how will you know what moves your opponent picked? When you are at a major and fighting in your 7th set of the day and are in a game five, I PROMISE you WILL NOT remember what moves they picked. If this is indeed the route NRS chooses then the icons in the ability selection menu will need to be on the screen at all times during game play.

• Many people are saying that full customization will add to the depth of the game and longevity. This is not accurate. The very talented top players will quickly decipher the best selection and moves sets for a character. There are moves that are so strong that you will almost have to pick it (i.e. Skarlet Siphon or Baraka launching stab move). Allowing full customization will actually showcase less moves on the main tournament stages as top players will be using one, maybe two variations.

• Tournament logistics and counter pick issue. Player Alpha is fighting player Beta. A wins, B goes to edit abilities to counter A's zoning, B wins, A goes and picks something that counters player B's move set, et cetera et cetera. Time, viewer ease and a Paper, Rock, Scissors mentality that will be worse than Injustice 2 at its peak.

• Balance will be nearly impossible without making moves either broken or useless. With each character having what appears to be 7-12 abilities they need to compliment each other appropriately. This will only be achieved in an MKX variation style system. Beta Kabal is the perfect example of a character being potentially broken by putting together the right moves. Take the restand or the jump saw away and the character begins to have clear deficits as every character in a fighting game should.

• The player should be number one when considering the standards. Full customization might be a good thing for viewers but it will take away from the tournament players experience. I will argue full customization will not be good for viewers because they will be only seeing one version of each character. I trust Paulo and NRS to give us several variations of a character like MKX that will be viable at a tournament level. This will also give NRS more freedom to make some moves strong or weaker depending on its variation. Something that will not be possible with full customization.

I feel like just about everything you said also applies to the variation system in general. Or even without it, just picking different characters.

It’s barely any different.

 

[M2Dave]

• Many people are saying that full customization will add to the depth of the game and longevity. This is not accurate. The very talented top players will quickly decipher the best selection and moves sets for a character. There are moves that are so strong that you will almost have to pick it (i.e. Skarlet Siphon or Baraka launching stab move). Allowing full customization will actually showcase less moves on the main tournament stages as top players will be using one, maybe two variations.

I agree, but to be fair to the people in favor of customizable variations, high level players already choose the preset variations with the best normal and special moves. As a Tremor player, I use Crystalline in almost all of my match ups because crystallization is a move that is superior to any other move that is available in Aftershock or Metallic.

As far as balancing customizable variations is concerned, NRS can balance them as they balance preset variations. However, the problem with balancing customizable variations is the more moves you introduce the more room for errors exists. The slot system may only be a pseudo solution.

Tournament logistics, as you mentioned, are the most conspicuous concern to me. Variations in moves such as super moves in Street Fighter or grooves in the Capcom vs. SNK series are clearly indicated during the match. Speaking of during the match, how do I know which three moves you selected? Furthermore, all competitive players return to the character select screen to take a break or consult their cellphones for notes. Are they expected to stare at the character select screen until you pick your moves? What if you want to change your moves depending on the character your opponent chooses? Will "blind picks" exist for customizable moves? How do tournament organizers manage such a system? If anyone is able to answer these questions rationally, I will support customizable variations in tournaments.

 

[OnlineSkunk]

The only reason you'll have to memorize more it's because more characters will be viable with custom variations instead of just labbing the ones you fear to go up against in tournament. Custom variations actually add more depth and more longevity to the game unlike having to remember different inputs for no reason. I'm willing to put more time to learn every character match up if it means it makes the game better and more enjoyable and It'll actually be easier to balance a character with custom variations, like someone said in another post, NRS can make a character special move an ability if it's too strong and they can also buff or nerf each character normals / specials individually without fear damaging another variation. For the first time I think NRS would be able to balance a character without sending them to the shadow realm. No offense PTW but I think you're overreacting or maybe there is another reason you don't want custom variation.

 

[Thingy]

I am just wondering how ranked matches will go. I wish NRS never did this "custom variation" bullshit. It makes balancing the game so ridiculously hard.

Those who actually travel to tournaments should be worried...I couldn't imagine having to deal with custom variations being tournament legal.

 

[PLAYING TO WIN]

I agree, but to be fair to the people in favor of customizable variations, high level players already choose the preset variations with the best normal and special moves. As a Tremor player, I use Crystalline in almost all of my match ups because crystallization is a move that is superior to any other move that is available in Aftershock or Metallic.

As far as balancing customizable variations is concerned, NRS can balance them as they balance preset variations. However, the problem with balancing customizable variations is the more moves you introduce the more room for errors exists. The slot system may only be a pseudo solution.

Tournament logistics, as you mentioned, are the most conspicuous concern to me. Variations in moves such as super moves in Street Fighter or grooves in the Capcom vs. SNK series are clearly indicated during the match. Speaking of during the match, how do I know which three moves you selected? Furthermore, all competitive players return to the character select screen to take a break or consult their cellphones for notes. Are they expected to stare at the character select screen until you pick your moves? What if you want to change your moves depending on the character your opponent chooses? Will "blind picks" exist for customizable moves? How do tournament organizers manage such a system? If anyone is able to answer these questions rationally, I will support customizable variations in tournaments.

Blind picks lmao. That is an entire new can of worms.

 

[OnlineSkunk]

I agree, but to be fair to the people in favor of customizable variations, high level players already choose the preset variations with the best normal and special moves. As a Tremor player, I use Crystalline in almost all of my match ups because crystallization is a move that is superior to any other move that is available in Aftershock or Metallic.

As far as balancing customizable variations is concerned, NRS can balance them as they balance preset variations. However, the problem with balancing customizable variations is the more moves you introduce the more room for errors exists. The slot system may only be a pseudo solution.

Tournament logistics, as you mentioned, are the most conspicuous concern to me. Variations in moves such as super moves in Street Fighter or grooves in the Capcom vs. SNK series are clearly indicated during the match. Speaking of during the match, how do I know which three moves you selected? Furthermore, all competitive players return to the character select screen to take a break or consult their cellphones for notes. Are they expected to stare at the character select screen until you pick your moves? What if you want to change your moves depending on the character your opponent chooses? Will "blind picks" exist for customizable moves? How do tournament organizers manage such a system? If anyone is able to answer these questions rationally, I will support customizable variations in tournaments.

I kinda answered all of this in the thread Juggs made but here it's again

Q: how do I know which three moves you selected?
A: Players have the right to blind pick at the start of a round, that's how it works now and that's how they deal with counterpicking each other. I know what you're about to ask and I'll answer in the other same question you asked.

Q: Are they expected to stare at the character select screen until you pick your moves?
A: If a player loses a match and they want to go to character select screen, that player would be on a timer ( 45 seconds ) and if they don't choose during those 45 seconds then the last character they chose is auto selected and they have to stick with it, implement it into the game UI and make it a tournament rule. Even for current tournaments this is needed honestly.

Q: What if you want to change your moves depending on the character your opponent chooses?
A: Abilities should be treated as variations, whatever abilities you chose you have to stick with during a set unless you lose a game, this shouldn't even be a question.

Q: Will "blind picks" exist for customizable moves?
A: Yes, at the select you would have the right to blind pick just like we do now, at the loading screen after the stages are chosen you would be able to see ultra extra large icons of your opponents abilities, left side for player one and right side for player two, they can also add it at the start of a fight when the announcer says round one fight and then minimize them to be be under the health bar. ( In tournament mode )

Q: How do tournament organizers manage such a system?
A: Everything is organized now, isn't it?

Edit: Actually hidden select won't be possible in game, they would have to flip a coin when another player wants to counter pick. I forgot some characters have too many abilities. It's only an issue at the start of a set though.

Another Edit: Flipping a coin to decide who would have to select their characters and abilities first in the case of a counter picking situation.

Online Tournament: Hidden select should hide the screen for your opponent only, not both. That way neither player have to worry about getting counter picked. This can actually be a setting in the options menu tournament mode tab of how you want hidden select to work.

 

[cavemold]

I hope it in. Brings whole new level planing out your charcter for pro play .