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Question - Hellfire Did Hellfire deserve to be destroyed so badly?

STRYKIE

Are ya' ready for MK11 kids?!
D'vorah's armor is not a hard knockdown. Also, I don't think the frame data is completely right on how negative Scorpion's armor is. I took it to the lab against Sub's wakeup slide (9 frames) and was able to make it trade with his d4 (8 frames) and outright beat it with d1/3 (6/7). If I'm not missing something here, that makes him -1 or possibly neutral if I just didn't hit the 1 frame link to beat slide with d4. I guess there could be travel frames? Definitely not many considering how close you are after EX bf4.

Either way, they're both pretty bad reversals all around.
2:57
 

Second Saint

A man with too many names.
How does that prove anything? It doesn't support an argument for it being negative because he just blocked, not challenged anything. Watch it again, he blocks the 1, then let's go and gets opened up. Yes, he can be pressured on hit, but I never stated that I think he's plus, just not as negative as the in game frame data says. As someone who played Boneshaper before it was buffed into being broken, I remember the feeling of being neutral and then having to respect somebody's pressure.

It doesn't controvert my claim that it's not -5 and may possibly be -1 or neutral either. If you're neutral and decide to just block, it's the exact same result as being -5 and deciding to just block.

All I'm saying is that the small amount of testing I've done indicates that EX bf4 is not as negative as currently believed. If you have something to say on that, feel free to state it as opposed to posting a video and giving zero actual input on the matter.
 

STRYKIE

Are ya' ready for MK11 kids?!
How does that prove anything? It doesn't support an argument for it being negative because he just blocked, not challenged anything. Watch it again, he blocks the 1, then let's go and gets opened up. Yes, he can be pressured on hit, but I never stated that I think he's plus, just not as negative as the in game frame data says. As someone who played Boneshaper before it was buffed into being broken, I remember the feeling of being neutral and then having to respect somebody's pressure.

It doesn't controvert my claim that it's not -5 and may possibly be -1 or neutral either. If you're neutral and decide to just block, it's the exact same result as being -5 and deciding to just block.

All I'm saying is that the small amount of testing I've done indicates that EX bf4 is not as negative as currently believed. If you have something to say on that, feel free to state it as opposed to posting a video and giving zero actual input on the matter.
It's ironic you say that since bills were also sold about Bone Shaper's frame data after it got buffed.
 

Second Saint

A man with too many names.
It's ironic you say that since bills were also sold about Bone Shaper's frame data after it got buffed.
Yes, erroneous frame data and out right lies have happened in the past. This would only be ironic if I were actively lying about something for...absolutely no reason. I'm not making wild outlandish claims. I'm stating what I've done and the conclusions I've drawn based upon that evidence. Perhaps I'm wrong and trading an 8 frame move with a 9 frame move while -5 doesn't mean you're less negative. Maybe it means that d4 was a 4 frame low all along!

You know what, I made a video. Hey, I even beat slide when I was trying. Who'd have thought.


In short, I'm pretty sure it's neutral. I tried this against reptile with similar results. So please, if you have an actual reason why I might be wrong, tell me. I'm fine with being wrong, but I'm going to need some evidence.
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
Scorpion Takedown armor is not useless but is definitely bad.

I guess a lot of ppl forget that Scorpion only has one armored move, all his work comes off from the neutral and even his neutral has nearly no defenses at all, you get pressured, you'll get fucked.

When i play Scorpion, i feel like playing MK9 noob or MK9 sektor, no armor.
 

Hor_PeT

Kombatant
Scorpion Takedown armor is not useless but is definitely bad.

I guess a lot of ppl forget that Scorpion only has one armored move, all his work comes off from the neutral and even his neutral has nearly no defenses at all, you get pressured, you'll get fucked.

When i play Scorpion, i feel like playing MK9 noob or MK9 sektor, no armor.
Yes the game is more exciting with that feeling, isn't it? You have to outplay opponent in neutral and avoid the pressure as much as possible. Just kill his game. I think it's fun but I admit it that is it is not fun for a tournament against a really bad match up. :)
So who wants to win a tournament should pick up another character. Sadly. :/
Who wants to PLAY and against fair match up it will be very good. (I play mostly against Kotal (friend) and I always feel I have a chance to win - it is worth to play long term not one sided - he wants to learn Cassie Cage - I said him ok but it is only good if I can play better than him :) )
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
Yes the game is more exciting with that feeling, isn't it? You have to outplay opponent in neutral and avoid the pressure as much as possible. Just kill his game. I think it's fun but I admit it that is it is not fun for a tournament against a really bad match up. :)
So who wants to win a tournament should pick up another character. Sadly. :/
Who wants to PLAY and against fair match up it will be very good. (I play mostly against Kotal (friend) and I always feel I have a chance to win - it is worth to play long term not one sided - he wants to learn Cassie Cage - I said him ok but it is only good if I can play better than him :) )
I think he is the epitome of Neutral game in MKX, if there is a character which i think it looks like neutral is his speciality is scorpion, sadly even at that he doesn't excels.
 

OnlineSkunk

Mortal
He's garbage now, so is inferno and ninjutsu, the character got nerfed a week before I started to play hellfire and got his cancels down
 

EMPEROR PRYCE

WAR SEASON "THE WEAK EXPOSED!"
The thing about run cancels is. You make em plus enough to jail and the chip and pressure becomes too much. If you leave holes open to armor out, people complain and everyone drops the character instead of finding strategy around it.

Hellfire doesn't suck, it just isn't as good as it used to be. Basically, scorpion is no longer deserving of 20% chip off every jump in. Liu Kang still is though, but I don't think for long.
 

Paradoxxx

You smell of desperation...
He is still good!look the bright side that the nerfing is over for scorp!hold tight because i sense with kp2 we will have a lot of drama from quan,goro and tanya players(i hope!!)
 

Scoot Magee

But I didn't want to dash
Scorpion's isn't multi-hitting and 20 frame armor I admit is bad for wakeup, but not for getting out of pressure. Scorpion can get off the ground better than D'Vorah, but D'Vorah can get out of pressure better.
I'm just still trying to figure out what the reasoning was for making his takedown -5 on hit. It's like when his d3 was -7 on hit in mk9, it makes no sense to me. Why does Scorpion always have some dumb shit in his frame data?
 

Xzyj

Mortal
I'm just still trying to figure out what the reasoning was for making his takedown -5 on hit. It's like when his d3 was -7 on hit in mk9, it makes no sense to me. Why does Scorpion always have some dumb shit in his frame data?
The only explanation i can find is that his offensive options are very good, so it's a way to weaken his defense in exchange, in fact it's not -5, it's about +3 if you test it with jump on AI in practice.
 

Scoot Magee

But I didn't want to dash
The only explanation i can find is that his offensive options are very good, so it's a way to weaken his defense in exchange, in fact it's not -5, it's about +3 if you test it with jump on AI in practice.
Yeah its + if they don't do anything but - if they wake up. It kinda sucks when people actually know about it.
 

TotteryManx

cr. HP Master
What? Scorpion is solid. His fbc were toned down, but he still gains advantage after 21 or 214 fbc. Some characters have to spend meter to earn that respect. Meanwhile, you're building it.
 

SHAOLIN

内部冲突
No matter what nothing should be negative on hit, unless theirs some huge advantages that negates that.
 

STRYKIE

Are ya' ready for MK11 kids?!
What? Scorpion is solid. His fbc were toned down, but he still gains advantage after 21 or 214 fbc. Some characters have to spend meter to earn that respect. Meanwhile, you're building it.
Friendly reminder that both those options start from a fairly stubby high...
 

Scoot Magee

But I didn't want to dash
Yes, erroneous frame data and out right lies have happened in the past. This would only be ironic if I were actively lying about something for...absolutely no reason. I'm not making wild outlandish claims. I'm stating what I've done and the conclusions I've drawn based upon that evidence. Perhaps I'm wrong and trading an 8 frame move with a 9 frame move while -5 doesn't mean you're less negative. Maybe it means that d4 was a 4 frame low all along!

You know what, I made a video. Hey, I even beat slide when I was trying. Who'd have thought.


In short, I'm pretty sure it's neutral. I tried this against reptile with similar results. So please, if you have an actual reason why I might be wrong, tell me. I'm fine with being wrong, but I'm going to need some evidence.
I'm pretty sure you may be correct though there's so many random variables in this game, combine that with bad frame data and it leads to a lot of confusion.

I was convinced it was -5 when they wake up and +5 when they got up normally.
 

TotteryManx

cr. HP Master
Friendly reminder that both those options start from a fairly stubby high...
I guess that's your way of saying it can be crouched/poked out of? How many times do you actually see people crouch poking the first hit of a string? Not very often. A lot of people won't throw out a random poke hoping that you do that string. If the second hit or third was a high, well that's a different story.