Match-up Discussion Deathstroke vs Flash (Hot topic that must be discussed)

[haketh]

Little note, yeah it sucks a certain range LGs is a risk but that's only without meter, with meter you can delay to beat out LC or just not have to worry about that.

Also DSs Standing 1 is great when in that midrange for stuffing B22 and dash attempts. While Flash does have the better carry DSs carry tot he corner isn't bad and even midscreen he has oki setups to blow up reversals from Flash if you wanna sacrifice damage.

And just to quiet Dave I think DS only loses to MMH & Zod 6-4.

 

[IMakeItL00kC00L]

fear of Flash

I mean fear is huge

fear? Fear?! FEAR!!!!!!! #SinestroCorps #FearMe #BeAfraid

 

[YOMI MITYEAP]

@KingHippo DS isn't all guns, but he isn't all rushdown either. He is a "balanced" style character that can do both. When one is shut down in ways, that makes things harder for him unless the other facet of his playstyle beats the other character (like vs raven, DS stomps up close). Also DS's 50/50s are only super effective in the corner. Outside the corner, they can be backdashed or they don't lead to as much damage. Midscreen is where j3 and f3 shine more than his b2/b1.

 

[OG Mannimal]

If you'll read my post and understood the purpose of these tools, you'd know why I said that. The purpose of both lightning charge & low whip is to keep the opponent from holding back. Low guns also does the same thing. Lightning charge is the flashes equivalent of low whip. The difference between the two is the reward for hitting or if flashes charge is blocked. Obviously lightning charge is better when you look at it from just the reward perspective.

My bad I must have skipped over the "They do the same job" part. I was thinking about startup, negativity on block etc

 

[cR WoundCowboy]

I think this is the crux of the issue here. If Deathstroke was all guns, I would agree, but the fact is that he's primarily a 50/50 character who happens to have a long range check that does its job well and isn't shitty like Catwoman's. The fact that it can be used as a zoning tool is a sign of how good it is, but it's not DS primary function. If he could consistently beat me from mid range and beyond I would agree, but to even fight me he has to be in my favorable area! Our attack speed is pretty much the same, I have a few more lows and he has Lightning Charge, but I wouldn't consider those either huge in the matchup.

Raven shuts down the LGS, but she still loses. She's not exactly Flash up close, but that's just one example of a char who can shut down Low Guns, but it doesn't have a huge effect on the match here.

Right, but Raven's footsies are worse than Flash so the low guns thing doesn't matter as much because he can abuse his jump attacks more against her, unlike Flash who has good AA.

 

[KingHippo]

Serious question: Why does Flash do better at midrange than Raven. She has an unpunishable at certain range move that catches jumps, insane back walk and good armor break special. ONLY thing she lacks is Normal AA. She might have a better midrange game (with less reward).

 

[Zyphox]

I'm not sure what people mean also by "Flash's up close game is sooooo much better". I mean, it's insane, right? He has a 7 frame LOW d1, and a 15 frame OVERHEAD with moderate range. That's definition of insanity.

I don't know how DS with an equally fast and low d1 and an even faster overhead could compete with that. I guess I better pack it up

the difference is flash's low and overhead lead to huge damage into corner carry, DS gets d1 MB SS combointo a set up, i think flash's options after a hit is better and much more deadly.

 

[Blind_Ducky]

the difference is flash's low and overhead lead to huge damage into corner carry, DS gets d1 MB SS combointo a set up, i think flash's options after a hit is better and much more deadly.

I think we all understand the reward for flash is better. You've been spewing the same thing out of your mouth in every post. Nothing you've said so far explains how the flash has the tools to outfootsie deathstroke.

 

[YOMI MITYEAP]

I want to know for those who say it is 5 5, what flash are u playing or what matches have u watched to make u say it is 5 5? Theory fighting is fine, but we need concrete evidence as well (real matches)

 

[KingHippo]

I've played against local Flashes, ForeverKing's Flash and Theo's Flash. Not highly renowned Flashes, of course, but I've done the gameplan, and it's worked consistently. I'm sure the only difference would be the goofy tricks, but I'm sold on the gameplan based on these experiences.

 

[YOMI MITYEAP]

I've played against local Flashes, ForeverKing's Flash and Theo's Flash. Not highly renowned Flashes, of course, but I've done the gameplan, and it's worked consistently. I'm sure the only difference would be the goofy tricks, but I'm sold on the gameplan based on these experiences.

interesting, damn I should have had u play DJT at WCW, he knows that matchup super well. This matchup is one that is on the fence for sure.

 

[cR WoundCowboy]

Serious question: Why does Flash do better at midrange than Raven. She has an unpunishable at certain range move that catches jumps, insane back walk and good armor break special. ONLY thing she lacks is Normal AA. She might have a better midrange game (with less reward).

I think Flash's B2 (or whichever one looks like he's swimming) is a better footsie tool than anything Raven has. It has good range and leads to an advantage situation on block, potentially into a mixup. I also think his sonic pound is a pretty good footsie tool: it's not getting punished on reaction. He also has one of the best forward dashes in the game which makes it even harder to control him in the neutral. I don't see how Raven is comparable.

 

[Clark L.]

Not to be a troll malik, but every time I see this thread , I vision this.

 

[Amplified$hotz]

Off topic:
Is GL-Flash 6-4 flash?

 

[ryumanjisen]

I don't know if I'm "one of the best Deathstrokes out there", all I'm sure is that I've been playing him as my secondary since the very beggining.

If you ask me, this MU is a pretty straight forward 6-4 for Flash. You can't zone him, your oki is pretty useless against him and everytime he touches you you lose 50% of a lifebar. One of the worst MU's for DS, in my opinion.

 

[Slips]

If Doomsday is 5-5 for DS, then Flash is 4-6.

Both of these mu's are played pretty much the same for DS. Keep them out, and don't get too gun happy at footsie range. Flash is harder than DD simply because he does much much more damage and has an easier time punishing low guns.

Stages with background bounces might make the mu 5-5 cause then DS damage can compete with Flash damage.

 

[joeldm]

Flash has advantage in this fight because:

• His normals are faster than DS
• His combos do more damage (1 bar + trait 50% or more)
• Low Hitbox (good combos that end with 23 not connect well)
• Punish Lightning Charge with a good combo is not always easy

To beat him, you need experience in this matchup

 

[L1FTER]

IMO 7-3 for Flash. Honeybee will show you why.

 

[TKB]

IMO 7-3 for Flash. Honeybee will show you why.

Damn. I still think it's 4-6 but I need to fight honeybee. Are you very familiar with the matchup? Know all of flash's frame data? Just curious. Do you play honeybee often?

I felt that it was 7-3 for the longest time until I learned the matchup a little more and got a bit more comfortable. Flash is honestly one of my personal worst matchups he still wrecks me but I feel like it's atleast winnable now.

 

[L1FTER]

Damn. I still think it's 4-6 but I need to fight honeybee. Are you very familiar with the matchup? Know all of flash's frame data? Just curious. Do you play honeybee often?

I felt that it was 7-3 for the longest time until I learned the matchup a little more and got a bit more comfortable. Flash is honestly one of my personal worst matchups he still wrecks me but I feel like it's atleast winnable now.

Yeah me and Honeybee live in the same city so we have played together offline multiple times.

 

[@MylesWright_]

Flash just needs one opening with trait then he can lame Deathstroke out for the whole fight because he can anti-air as well as punish low guns

 

[ForeverKing]

It's pretty elementary to me. I have always determined that for a match to be in the 7-3 or worse category, there needs to be a catastrophic limiting of the other characters tools. On paper and in practice, I simply do not see that to be the case in this match. Flash doesn't necessarily limit anything I can do, and the one thing he can (low guns) is not my gameplan. To me, that talking point is akin to saying Catwoman's low whip move is punishable. A tool that on occasion I can use to check walking back will not be the death of me.

I give Flash players a lot of credit: they are playing a difficult game. The current meta is so anti melee that a lot of skill will be going into fighting that stigma. However, that being the case, this is where I see Flash having to play a tough game. Walking into my range putting yourself in 50/50 situations is what Flash must do, he has no other option. Of course he's not helpless in this endeavour, but let's break down Flash.

Flash has typically one chance a round for explosive damage. After that, he's doing below average damage to win the round out that is primarily based on Oki situations. No amount of Oki that's not interactible based is ever guaranteed, so flash must guess (much like I do) to take me down and he's probably going to need a couple guesses. To do this, he's going to have to get into his b2 range and do a few things: b2, pound, jump, charge or dash. A big set of options, but more important all have a big issue in that they don't beat walking back. Flash can do charge, but the inherent risk of punishment is always there. Pound jump and dash are equally risky, so b2 is probably the safest option, but even that will lose to jumping back. Flash is taking risks in the neural game, period.

It's not all sunshine and roses for me either. I too have the same mixup of dash up, jump, and long range overhead, but I sf the long range low in too. Little harder to all contend with, but risky as well. I am also a character primarily based on neural play and okizeme, the only difference is my reward is slightly higher than non traited flash.

The way I see it, we're both taking risks to do the same gameplan. We both have some tools to make it a little better but they even each other out really. We are, for all intents and purposes, on equal ground.

Awesome write up. I always bought into Flash bodying Deathstroke just because that's what everyone says. But after picking up both characters and playing the matchup from both sides it isn't that bad for DS. His d2 actually beats all of Flash's jump ins so walking backwards and playing defensive/patient while whiff punishing Flash's dash ins and normals makes it difficult for Flash to mount any offense. Not to mention walking into DS b1/b2.

It's debatable honestly but I could see 5-5, if it was anyone's favor I'd say Flash