Question - Ferra/Torr Dat KP3 bandwagon

[Shade667]

D1 was originally -3, and that was never an issue. Only reason its -6 now is cuz NRS dont know their own frame data and thought it was +2... because thats not obvious to test.
-2 isnt much better than -3. Jasons is -2, and he has options from fullscreen to counter zoning.

 

[Blewdew]

D1 was originally -3, and that was never an issue. Only reason its -6 now is cuz NRS dont know their own frame data and thought it was +2... because thats not obvious to test.
-2 isnt much better than -3. Jasons is -2, and he has options from fullscreen to counter zoning.

Tbh jasons d1 shouldn't be -2 either NO d1 with 6 frames should almost be neutral. Characters like tremor can only escape with armor otherwise lol

 

[Shade667]

Tbh jasons d1 shouldn't be -2 either NO d1 with 6 frames should almost be neutral. Characters like tremor can only escape with armor otherwise lol

Can u jump out of a -2 d1 on block? or backdash?

 

[Blewdew]

Can u jump out of a -2 d1 on block? or backdash?

Probably yes but isn't it dumb to gain absolutely no momentum when you make the right read?

 

[Shade667]

Probably yes but isn't it dumb to gain absolutely no momentum when you make the right read?

Its dumb to guess right on ur opponents offense only for them to be +20.
This game is dumb. And going from -3 to -2 again, not that big of a deal.

 

[Blewdew]

Its dumb to guess right on ur opponents offense only for them to be +20.
This game is dumb. And going from -3 to -2 again, not that big of a deal.

oh come on don't use this as an argument. just because some top tiers have cheap offense doesn't justify unnecessary buffs.

even it's -6 it is still an amazing poke. but @thlityoursloat is completly right. you all act like you have no choices beside blocking after it. read the block? do a tick throw. read the incoming poke or mid? you can still ex toryuken or charge to absorb the hit and do 40%+ or get one of the best hkd's in the game without being able to be punished by 90% of the cast.

that's just how fg's work. you make the wrong decision/ your opponent makes the right decision -> momentum turns. some characters STILL have 8 or slower pokes who wouldn't gain any advantage for making the right read if it's -2 so the difference between -2 and -3 IS actually a big deal for some matchups. making it -3 would be more fair but imo -4 or -5 is enough.

 

[Doombawkz]

oh come on don't use this as an argument. just because some top tiers have cheap offense doesn't justify unnecessary buffs.

even it's -6 it is still an amazing poke. but @thlityoursloat is completly right. you all act like you have no choices beside blocking after it. read the block? do a tick throw. read the incoming poke or mid? you can still ex toryuken or charge to absorb the hit and do 40%+ or get one of the best hkd's in the game without being able to be punished by 90% of the cast.

that's just how fg's work. you make the wrong decision/ your opponent makes the right decision -> momentum turns. some characters STILL have 8 or slower pokes who wouldn't gain any advantage for making the right read if it's -2 so the difference between -2 and -3 IS actually a big deal for some matchups. making it -3 would be more fair but imo -4 or -5 is enough.

Here's the issue with that. We actually don't have any choices besides blocking after it. Here is a breakdown of Lackey's neutral tools

b.1
d.1

That's it. When one of those tools is -6, that basically means only the other tool exists, which is a 10 frame high. We aren't like Vicious or Ruthless where we can do an OH toss and be +10 and able to keep the opponent in front of us, we don't have the projectile or huge range on n.j.p in order to make sure the opponent can't escape.

If GM sub or Reptile blocks a d.1, it's game over for lackey. If they soak the d.1 and we whiff the grab, it's game over for lackey. Even if we hit the grab, the game is over for Lackey because we aren't getting back from full screen. That's the unfortunate truth, every MU heavily against us (and there's a lot of them) all stem from the fact that Lackey is incapable of mounting pressure on an opponent who knows what they are doing.

Also EX torryuken and Charge can both be full combo punished, you aren't blowing up an 8 frame mid with a 30 frame charge which loses armor after the first 10 frames and wasting a meter on Lackey to be left unsafe and fully punishable because the armor wears off after the first half of the move isn't a viable strategy. Again, we aren't ruthless and vicious where we are drowning in meter.

It's not even about a wrong decision -> right decision = lost pressure. It's a regardless of decision = Lost pressure. Eventually, we will have to press d.1. Saying that it should lose us the game just because we have two unviable options to make it not any better than it already is, one of which costs meter, is foolhardy.

To @thlityoursloat , it's not even about mashing d.1. It's about the fact that we have to seriously consider if we are ready to risk the game to even press it once in any situation that's not a combo.

 

[Blewdew]

Here's the issue with that. We actually don't have any choices besides blocking after it. Here is a breakdown of Lackey's neutral tools

b.1
d.1

That's it. When one of those tools is -6, that basically means only the other tool exists, which is a 10 frame high. We aren't like Vicious or Ruthless where we can do an OH toss and be +10 and able to keep the opponent in front of us, we don't have the projectile or huge range on n.j.p in order to make sure the opponent can't escape.

If GM sub or Reptile blocks a d.1, it's game over for lackey. If they soak the d.1 and we whiff the grab, it's game over for lackey. Even if we hit the grab, the game is over for Lackey because we aren't getting back from full screen. That's the unfortunate truth, every MU heavily against us (and there's a lot of them) all stem from the fact that Lackey is incapable of mounting pressure on an opponent who knows what they are doing.

Also EX torryuken and Charge can both be full combo punished, you aren't blowing up an 8 frame mid with a 30 frame charge which loses armor after the first 10 frames and wasting a meter on Lackey to be left unsafe and fully punishable because the armor wears off after the first half of the move isn't a viable strategy. Again, we aren't ruthless and vicious where we are drowning in meter.

It's not even about a wrong decision -> right decision = lost pressure. It's a regardless of decision = Lost pressure. Eventually, we will have to press d.1. Saying that it should lose us the game just because we have two unviable options to make it not any better than it already is, one of which costs meter, is foolhardy.

To @thlityoursloat , it's not even about mashing d.1. It's about the fact that we have to seriously consider if we are ready to risk the game to even press it once in any situation that's not a combo.

I can see your point I'll give a Detailed answer when I'm back home tomorrow

 

[thlityoursloat]

If Lackey is a bad match up for GM sub because he gets out zonned then pick his other variations that are very good at counterzoning...
You act like Lackey is supposed to be an S tier monster with 0 bad matchups.

E: You also have armor post blocked d1, at -6 you're not going to get jailed into everything, especially considering the range.

 

[Doombawkz]

If Lackey is a bad match up for GM sub because he gets out zonned then pick his other variations that are very good at counterzoning...
You act like Lackey is supposed to be an S tier monster with 0 bad matchups.

E: You also have armor post blocked d1, at -6 you're not going to get jailed into everything, especially considering the range.

Except he's the opposite. A c-tier at best with almost no winning match-ups. Also just picking another character doesn't solve the problem that there's not a single real reason to actually pick Lackey in the first place. He can have losing MUs, but they shouldn't be to the point where it's an 8-2.

E: OH right, our meter-costly uppercut thats unsafe and can be blown up, our 30 frame charge, and a roll that doesn't convert to anything. How could I forget the valuable strategy of yolo MB uppercut.

(It's nothing personal against you, I'm naturally snarky)

 

[thlityoursloat]

Except he's the opposite. A c-tier at best with almost no winning match-ups. Also just picking another character doesn't solve the problem that there's not a single real reason to actually pick Lackey in the first place. He can have losing MUs, but they shouldn't be to the point where it's an 8-2.

E: OH right, our meter-costly uppercut thats unsafe and can be blown up, our 30 frame charge, and a roll that doesn't convert to anything. How could I forget the valuable strategy of yolo MB uppercut.

(It's nothing personal against you, I'm naturally snarky)

Let's just agree to disagree, lol.
and no, nothing personal was taken, it's all good.

 

[Doombawkz]

Let's just agree to disagree, lol.
and no, nothing personal was taken, it's all good.

Sounds fine. I personally believe his other changes would do him fine without the d.1 buff, but I think that the d.1 is the most realistic to hope for.

 

[Kamikaze_Highlander]

Also the fact the hit advantage on lackey's d1 is kinda shit compared to R/V. Ferra d1 guarantees a 50/50. But Torr's is significantly less advantageous. -4 is perfect imo. Only -1 or neutral at max range, and still able to armor through many counter pokes on block. But if an opponent is lucky enough to have a good fast poke and the knowledge they can stuff the charge.

 

[Blewdew]

Also the fact the hit advantage on lackey's d1 is kinda shit compared to R/V. Ferra d1 guarantees a 50/50. But Torr's is significantly less advantageous. -4 is perfect imo. Only -1 or neutral at max range, and still able to armor through many counter pokes on block. But if an opponent is lucky enough to have a good fast poke and the knowledge they can stuff the charge.

To be honest this sounds like the best solution for the Problem. As I mentioned before -4 or -5 is enough to make it better at least. Nothing to add here

 

[Shade667]

but -4 and -5 is still worse than what is was. Just revert it back to -3. It wasnt hurting anyone at -3. It was an unnecessary nerf.

 

[Doombawkz]

Also the fact the hit advantage on lackey's d1 is kinda shit compared to R/V. Ferra d1 guarantees a 50/50. But Torr's is significantly less advantageous. -4 is perfect imo. Only -1 or neutral at max range, and still able to armor through many counter pokes on block. But if an opponent is lucky enough to have a good fast poke and the knowledge they can stuff the charge.

To be honest this sounds like the best solution for the Problem. As I mentioned before -4 or -5 is enough to make it better at least. Nothing to add here

Sure, let's make OH toss -4 or 5 too. After all, who needs pressure tools that comprise a fair amount of your characters neutral?

 

[Blewdew]

Sure, let's make OH toss -4 or 5 too. After all, who needs pressure tools that comprise a fair amount of your characters neutral?

Because making a move from +6 to -4 is the same as making a poke from -2 to -4. with that logic d1 should be +6 as well to be well rounded?

 

[Doombawkz]

Because making a move from +6 to -4 is the same as making a poke from -2 to -4. with that logic d1 should be +6 as well to be well rounded?

OH toss is +10

Also if d.1 were +10 that would be cool too. But no, the point is that d.1 is as important to Lackey's neutral and pressure game as OH toss is to R/V.
If you can make the stretch of logic that making it -4 or -5 is "fine", then by the same logic, taking the best tool R/V have and making it -4 or -5 would also be fine.

Don't like it? No worries, just use some Yolo Armor. Just guess that they won't block your OH toss. Blah blah so on so forth.

 

[Blewdew]

OH toss is +10

Also if d.1 were +10 that would be cool too. But no, the point is that d.1 is as important to Lackey's neutral and pressure game as OH toss is to R/V.
If you can make the stretch of logic that making it -4 or -5 is "fine", then by the same logic, taking the best tool R/V have and making it -4 or -5 would also be fine.

Don't like it? No worries, just use some Yolo Armor. Just guess that they won't block your OH toss. Blah blah so on so forth.

This is off topic but why doesn't oh toss jail into b1 if it's +10? I know it gets more plus if they Crouch Block before but in a neutral state as well?

Also I'm tired of argueing so let's just agree that we have different opinions on this. If a patch is coming then I guess his d1 won't be touched anyway

 

[joeldm]

Two more suggestions for Lackey:

• dbf1b can switch sides (without bar use). Once Lackey has poor meter builder, that would be useful when he was coast to the corner.
• dbf1 MB (non ex) enabling extend combos (like Grundy df2 MB). The same way R/V him a second combo option using bar and become a more dangerous grappler.

 

[Doombawkz]

This is off topic but why doesn't oh toss jail into b1 if it's +10? I know it gets more plus if they Crouch Block before but in a neutral state as well?

Also I'm tired of argueing so let's just agree that we have different opinions on this. If a patch is coming then I guess his d1 won't be touched anyway

It does. I showed @Hollywood DMS at EVO when we were there, he can vouch for it.

I'll keep my dreams

 

[CabooseLeGoose]

D1 is fine the way it is for Lackey. The character needs no changes other than a way to get in. No buffs should be given.

 

[Shade667]

D1 is fine the way it is for Lackey. The character needs no changes other than a way to get in. No buffs should be given.

D1 was fine the way it was. Just revert the change. Why are we just accepting that -6 is the way it should be? It wont even be a buff.

 

[Blewdew]

It does. I showed @Hollywood DMS at EVO when we were there, he can vouch for it.

I'll keep my dreams

No need to convincing me if it's about labbing things out I trust you lol. I'll try it out

Oh my god it actually does jail lol. The more you know

 

[DevilMaySpy]

It does. I showed @Hollywood DMS at EVO when we were there, he can vouch for it.

I'll keep my dreams

I SEEN IT, I FELT IT, AND I DIDN'T LIKE IT!