Question - Ferra/Torr Dat KP3 bandwagon

[Kamikaze_Highlander]

dude wat

ruthless was absolutely shit tier in the beginning, getting pngc was the best thing this variation could get.

vicious had poor damage without ex tosses and now as they have them you can finally hit confirm b121 into something bigger than 21%.

lackey got decreased damage scaling on ex toryuken so you can do big 40%+ from a safe armoured launcher. double f2 combos were stylish but roll combos do way more damage you can't do 38% meterless with double f2.

D1 NEEDED to be toned down. no character should have a 6 frame d1 and being -2 on block that can possibly tick and has this reach. even jason shouldn't have it. it is still the best d1 in the game.

d2 is now a wonderful combo extender and +4 on block.

hit advantages got increased so you could easily hitconfirm b121 in ruthless into pngc f2.

without these changes ferratorr would be way down in the tier list. now they are in a perfect spot were they should stay

Thats kinda what he's saying tho, roll recovery and PnG cancels were probably the best buffs given to the character, though i'd put 2f4 being cancellable in their too, as the reduced roll recovery would be pretty pointless without some string to get some application out of it. Sure the other buffs are great and have helped the character, but they weren't necessary imo. Vicious needed something to make him a tad more viable but he's always been a really solid variation, remember launch F/T?, consistent 32% meterless, fantastic space control. I never really felt like Vicious needed a buff in the same way lackey and Ruthless did, EX tosses are more a quality of life/normalization buff than anything else.

i think -6 is a little too heavy imo, that's punishable by a few reversals, not something I'm okay with. -3 or -4 is plenty so that even at max range its no more than neutral. I don't like the change because the entire point of d1 was a good, long range check, with little advantage on hit. d3 is faster and still -2 on block +14 on hit, but the range is just shit. And Lackey isn't like R/V where we can throw Ferra for plus frames. I'd would be happy if they increased the advantage on hit, +10 maybe so it jails into standing 4.

I agree with you that we are right were we belong tier wise, I don't want to see them rocket up top 3 or top 5, but there are still issues that should be addressed. If we are left alone, we could slide down a tier depending on how others get buffed.

 

[Blewdew]

I agree with you that we are right were we belong tier wise, I don't want to see them rocket up top 3 or top 5, but there are still issues that should be addressed. If we are left alone, we could slide down a tier depending on how others get buffed.

As long as we make the character work were is the problem with that?

 

[Kamikaze_Highlander]

I agree with you in principle. But in the interest of balance i would like to see some simple fixes to the character at least. Buffs at this point aren't necessary and really should just be qol. but if there is another balance patch there will be buffs to other characters. I'm just worried that some characters like Sonya or Johnny will get slaps on the wrist while we get handcuffed to the radiator in Paolo's basement.

 

[joeldm]

@joeldm b2 16f!?!? Yeezus dude, and I thought my character model buff was ludicrous. I wouldn't mind it being bumped to 20 be even that isn't necessary. B3 can make them respect the low a little longer. This might throw off the hit confirming part of it too.

I took this suggestion @FOREVER KING JR on another topic.
I wish JIP B2 was a real blockstring and a combo option.
B2 is easily seen, then one can defend, backdash or use armored moves against it.
B2 has short range compared with Ruthless and Vicius.
Ruthless and Vicius has pressure of 50/50 with Low and OH Ferra but not Lackey.
I would not change B2 if Lackey had pressure equal to these two or pressure RC

 

[Kamikaze_Highlander]

I agree about most of those. But 1,1 and b12, b121 all guarantee the 50/50 on hit. There are other things lackey needs above a faster b2

 

[Shade667]

If b2 was 16 frames itll be a straight 50/50 guess into full combo alongside f2, which is 15 frames.
Both safe (Because who does the full string without hit comfirming... not me... heh...)

Also, 16 frames is unreactable.
If it got buffed to 19 or 20 frames thatd be fine. Though I do think that having it jail off a ji would be cool.

 

[Kamikaze_Highlander]

Adjust ji1?? Is that too much to ask, Increasing his speed a bit in that would be nice.

Like because he doesn't have ferra he can move a bit quicker

 

[Trauma_and_Pain]

I mostly agreed with REO's list and liked it because it's simple.

Ferra / Torr:
- All forms of EX Ferra Overhead Toss (D,B+2+BLK)are now -25 on block and have increased whiff recovery.
- EX B,F+2+BLK (Little One Slide) is now -20 on block and has increased whiff recovery.
- Close Overhead Ferra Toss block stun advantage slightly reduced by 3 frames overall.

Lackey:
- The first hit of Torr Smash (D,B+2+BLK) now has increased push back to prevent the second hit from whiffing against certain characters crouch blocking.

Ruthless:
- Pain N' Gain self inflicted damage now increased to 6%.

The one thing I might change is giving Ruthless double F2 combos back in exchange for the ex Ferra stuff, just so Ruthless and Vicious feel less homogenized.

IIRC Ferra Toss (OH) became more plus on block for KP2. Can't fathom why. That needs to be reversed in fairness.. Increasing Ruthless DD1 self damage to 6% or 7% is actually a pretty good way of normalizing the crazy net damage of that variation.

Character doesn't need a whole lot of changing. But we said that last patch and got an overhaul. Idk, I still think an AA above our head like Goro's would be cool. Not needed though.

If I get Kabal there's a good chance F/T is no longer my main anyway . I can't see dropping them though. I'll just have 2 mains probably, and F/T isn't a high execution character so I'll never really lose the muscle memory for their stuff.

 

[CabooseLeGoose]

3 changes I'd like for Lackey:
1. Make charge have a MB command throw. Like Air Kano Ball. This, unfortunately could be bad as it would increase Lackey's offense which is not my intent. I only want it as a way to get in and not be minus.
2. Increase the charge speed. Whether it be as described above or another way, just improve it.
3. Nerf the damage. 1 Bar over 40% is a bit ridiculous.

 

[Kamikaze_Highlander]

I think lackey should take a slight damage reduction too. Ruthless really is supposed to be the high damage variation.

For high execution combos (4xxbf2) 40+% is fine. But my usual bnb

Ex db2 f3 f2 2f4xxbf2 d1xxdbf1 is 41% as is, I think that should drop to maybe 35-38%

 

[joeldm]

If it got buffed to 19 or 20 frames thatd be fine. Though I do think that having it jail off a ji would be cool.

Will we reach a consensus about b2?
19 start frames and jip jail
@Kamikaze_Highlander, could you put this on your wishlist?

 

[Kamikaze_Highlander]

If it got buffed to 20 would we even need it to jail? F2 jails, and by the time somebody realizes its b2 coming and poke it would get stuffed.

Imo you just shouldn't be able to jail jip to 50/50. So no jailing sorry, but I'll add speeding up b2

 

[dennycascade]

Dear God no lackey does not need a safe 50/50 overhead/low game. He's supposed to be a grappler/armor character and his toolset is perfect for that. Adding an unreactable overhead into the mix would be straight up broken.
And also, I don't think nerfs to ruthless' damage or pressure game are necessary. All characters have strengths and weaknesses and ruthless pays for its insane rushdown strengths by having some very glaring weaknesses which we're all very familiar with.

 

[joeldm]

If it got buffed to 20 would we even need it to jail? F2 jails, and by the time somebody realizes its b2 coming and poke it would get stuffed.

Imo you just shouldn't be able to jail jip to 50/50. So no jailing sorry, but I'll add speeding up b2

No problem. I think we already have good ideas here

 

[Kamikaze_Highlander]

does not need a safe 50/50 overhead/low game

Does that mean you're NOT hit confirming b2?

 

[dennycascade]

Does that mean you're NOT hit confirming b2?

Lol but yeah I know it's safe but it's not a 50/50 guess, just a slow ass reactable move that happens to hit overhead.

 

[Blewdew]

Lol but yeah I know it's safe but it's not a 50/50 guess, just a slow ass reactable move that happens to hit overhead.

Like you said lackey is a grappler. There were matches where bio raped his opponent in the corner just by applying pressure with command grab. I don't really see the reason for making b2 faster either this would be more of a luxury buff.

 

[joeldm]

I also do it in the corner but in the midscreen command grab makes us very far

 

[dennycascade]

Like you said lackey is a grappler. There were matches where bio raped his opponent in the corner just by applying pressure with command grab. I don't really see the reason for making b2 faster either this would be more of a luxury buff.

Yeah, that's what I'm trying to say. B2 is meant to be a slow reactable overhead and lackey is fine being a grappler. If they sped it up he'd be just another mixup character.

 

[Blewdew]

I also do it in the corner but in the midscreen command grab makes us very far

Yeah I don't like going for command grab midscreen either except I need the damage

 

[Kamikaze_Highlander]

how about making bf2 a hkd, for less damage?

 

[joeldm]

If you're saying that roll (bf2) should be hkd then we would go back to have bad meterless damage.

 

[Cooljaxx]

Roll should stay the same. Why the HKD anyways? We get our damage from Bf2 so if it was a HKD lackey would be lowkey useless

 

[Kamikaze_Highlander]

I'm not saying we can't combo off it, just that as an ender it would be a low damage option will still being a HKD to maintain pressure.

 

[joeldm]

As you did not give details of how this would work, I have no way to assess whether this is a good idea.
I think we should not change Roll this way.
Roll could a slightly faster recovery when using 2F4 so we could make d3 f2 consistently.

B121, 112+4 and 42+4 should allow Roll Combos the same way 2F4.
At least 112+4 and 42+4 which are strings are not used in midscreen.

S4 BF3 should always connect after an F2.
BF3 is our best HKD, it is to be improved.