Question - Cyber Sub-Zero Cyber Sub-Zero...Is he too Strong? Brief Overview

[Phosferrax]

Yeah, I still don't see it. Good mids typically don't go into tremendous pressure or staggers. lol.

f4 isn't a good mid.

 

[GAV]

I like all the Triborg variations, but can't seem to find much in the way of combo damage. Any tips?

 

[Scott The Scot]

f4 isn't a good mid.

It's good to whiff punish with. Not good for pressure though.

 

[Wigy]

I like all the Triborg variations, but can't seem to find much in the way of combo damage. Any tips?

Cyrax -net starter df2 f43 df2 f43 df3 uppercut 4db4 really easy combo for you does mid 30s

Look up combo videos or something.

Cyrax gets to mid 30s early 40s easily but gets scaled like nuts so near impossible to get much higher.

If u want a hard one.

Net starter df2 f43 dd2 111 db3 (walk back) 3 dd3 21 db2 21 db3 212 -hard and flashy does about 40%

 

[TheIrishFGCguy]

f4 isn't a good mid.

Yeah it is. Tweedy says so. A mid that's -14 on block clearly allows for "tremendous pressure". You're just downplaying.

 

[Wigy]

Yeah it is. Tweedy says so. A mid that's -14 on block clearly allows for "tremendous pressure". You're just downplaying.

He probably plays cage and so has no idea what a good mid is like me.

 

[REO]

I'm not sure why people are bringing up tournaments to determine how good a character is. A character can be ridiculous regardless of how low a player has placed with them in tournament. And at the same time a character can be very balanced regardless if a player wins a tournament or places very high with that character.

Regarding Cyber Sub-Zero, I think his mix ups are a little too crazy and I can't be the only one that thinks it's a little TOO easy to mix someone up. Sometimes you literally have to just guess overhead or low and there's barely any skill involved for inflicting damage on your opponent.

 

[The Celebrity]

Hey come on now there's no need for borderline xenophobia, that's how armour is spelled in Britain.

 

[Gilbagz]

I'm not sure why people are bringing up tournaments to determine how good a character is. A character can be ridiculous regardless of how low a player has placed with them in tournament. And at the same time a character can be very balanced regardless if a player wins a tournament or places very high with that character.

Regarding Cyber Sub-Zero, I think his mix ups are a little too crazy and I can't be the only one that thinks it's a little TOO easy to mix someone up. Sometimes you literally have to just guess overhead or low and there's barely any skill involved for inflicting damage on your opponent.

Reo how do you propose they change him
Honestly I feel they just need to make bombs hit mid
Remove the hard to blockables

He still has his 5050 game that way, but is reliant on bomb to keep them safe. Which is fair imo.
His neutral is good but he's reliant on two buttons f1 and f4, but his pressure game is non existant due to lack of mids, unless theirs some way to get bombs out mid block string to allow for contiuous pressure.
His pokes are good, and his armour is average.

He could do well played with the heavy PL style, but I still fine he takes a lot of risk to get anything started. Random bomb is punishable by run, which I know is a hard read. But its actually important to stop csz from getting bombs out, once he gets them out its like Joker teeth or tremor up rocks. You just have to respect the free combo breaker. He doesnt have the best approach outside of pokes to get this started. f1 is a godlike neutral tool, but you can't play offensively with it. You can't really play frame trap throw because you're throw bait is f4 (unless you're content with frame trapping with b3d4u3).

I honestly feel he does better as a patient mid range character focusing on f1 spacing. And controlling the pace with ice bombs when they start respecting your spacing game. Dive kick is a really good mobility tool yes, and once he gets bomb out, threat of instant dive kick is super scary. Though thats why, I feel you need to apply a lot of pressure to keep him off neutral bombs. But heavy aggression will fall to good f1 spacing. The natural progression is perhaps, run into low pokes. And I don't see sub having a good option to deal with this outside of hard reads with b2, f4 and b1. He will have to block the poke and play pressure off that. Though perhaps neutral bombs will prevent you from capitalising on poke frames on hit. Honestly i'm just trying to theory craft the neutral right now. Obviously the flow of the game will change, and will very much be reads based. But I don't see csz as being a brain dead character that can just do stuff. His mix ups are ridiculous yes, but only once bomb is out. The whole bomb meta will cause the whole neutral to shift around trying to punish bomb, and csz trying to punish aggression to stop bomb.

 

[B. Shazzy]

That's what happens when you get a character nerfed in NRS. Make another character who has the same thing but easier to do and has 5 different ways of doing it. You all brought this on yourselves, and for that I am picking up cyber sub today.

listen

it'll never get easier than pre nerfed quan. shit was babby's first fighting game character. that's all i have to say in this thread.

 

[RM NoBrows]

listen

it'll never get easier than pre nerfed quan. shit was babby's first fighting game character. that's all i have to say in this thread.

Listen

Sarcasm

 

[youthinkyoubadyouaintbad]

nvm i probably dont know wtf im talking about - im watching madzin put in work with cyber sub right now

 

[Tweedy]

f4 isn't a good mid.

Yes it is.

 

[WATCHD0G]

I hate to be the party pooper, but it should be obvious that the Cyborgs have a glaring weakness.

Play against a smart player that punishes properly, and you will see that they clearly have tons of gaps in strings and a shocking lack of a decent mid (and don't say F4, as its -10 and the next hit is high and fully punishable, meaning you have to always spend a bar of meter on something you can't hit confirm)

I am calling it now, the only Cyborg that will be left once the dust settles among people playing them now is Sektor and even he isnt brain dead or "broken DLC". Cyrax, Smoke and Sub will all take serious work to actually use and have absolutely no pick up and play ability.

People are looking at combos and hard to block-ables and thinking its a shut case for DLC, but in actual gameplay, and getting chances to set up those scenarios, they don't come easy.

 

[JDM]

Yeah it's true. But it's also really early and we've been playing our mains for how long now?

I was playing a set with a decent smoke against my shitty cyrax and we were going relatively even, I switched to JASON and destroyed him, horribly. Give it time for us to get comfortable with the characters as well. They may be broken, but I don't think so. Only one I think even has that potential is CSZ. He is pretty ridiculous on paper.


Also correct me if I'm wrong but F2 is listed as a high while it's a mid. A great mid at that (especially for Cyrax, F211 string is my favorite)

 

[MadPropz101]

His only weakness is low-to-average damage. He's like an adjusted Reptile where forceballs hit low, Slide is slower and pounce is faster.

But shh no Acidic brah

Since when is 30+ meterless considered low dmg?

 

[Gesture Required Ahead]

Since when is 30+ meterless considered low dmg?

This comment was from when we thought his damage topped at 31% meterless and they were 27-29 in general

 

[Phosferrax]

Yes it is.

f4 is awful on whiff, punishable on block.
f43 is punishable on block.

For Cyber Sub and Sektor, f4 into any special is punishable on block., except the very rare occasion for Sektor when all 4 havoc missiles hit.

For Cyrax, he has to either do f4~buzzsaw, which is ok but I wouldn't call it particularly good, or f4~ex buzzsaw if he wants to blindly burn the meter and hope the opponent got hit.

Just because the mid is fast and advancing doesn't mean it's particularly good. Smoke has a good version of the mid, the other characters do not as nearly all versions are punishable.

 

[MadMagician86]

A character can be ridiculous regardless of how low a player has placed with them in tournament. And at the same time a character can be very balanced regardless if a player wins a tournament or places very high with that character.

It's true that both of those scenarios are possible, but that doesn't mean that tournament results aren't a good indication of a characters viability. In fact more often than not the latter is true. Past tournament results will back me up on this. Tanya, Lao, and Quan, all characters considered too strong by the community, frequented top tournament standings often and in great numbers.

As for CSZ being too strong you could be right. I think it's too early to make any rash decisions. I remember a time when miss Tanya had an OP teleport. In attempt to fix her it was nerfed 2 or 3 times fairly quickly. All that was achieved was the death of Pyromancer and Dragon Naginata. Kobu Jitsu remained insane until last week. To avoid such disaster we as a community should be patient with new characters and new buffs. Give people time to develop the character and other time to try and counter it. And if it is too strong we definitely need time to determine the the fix should be.

 

[RYX]

I'm not sure why people are bringing up tournaments to determine how good a character is. A character can be ridiculous regardless of how low a player has placed with them in tournament. And at the same time a character can be very balanced regardless if a player wins a tournament or places very high with that character.

Regarding Cyber Sub-Zero, I think his mix ups are a little too crazy and I can't be the only one that thinks it's a little TOO easy to mix someone up. Sometimes you literally have to just guess overhead or low and there's barely any skill involved for inflicting damage on your opponent.

his mix-ups might be really good, but what else does he have?

it seems like his lack of a decent mid or any real frame traps is going to hurt him when trying to set up an offense. as far as I know right now, he's either going to be turtling for an opportunity or relying on the bomb guessing game to succeed.

 

[TheIrishFGCguy]

f4 is awful on whiff, punishable on block.
f43 is punishable on block.

For Cyber Sub and Sektor, f4 into any special is punishable on block., except the very rare occasion for Sektor when all 4 havoc missiles hit.

For Cyrax, he has to either do f4~buzzsaw, which is ok but I wouldn't call it particularly good, or f4~ex buzzsaw if he wants to blindly burn the meter and hope the opponent got hit.

Just because the mid is fast and advancing doesn't mean it's particularly good. Smoke has a good version of the mid, the other characters do not as nearly all versions are punishable.

He said it was a top 3 mid, like he actually said that. Just ignore him, he obviously has no idea what he's talking about. Even Foxy said he thinks F4 is ass lol

 

[REO]

It's true that both of those scenarios are possible, but that doesn't mean that tournament results aren't a good indication of a characters viability. In fact more often than not the latter is true. Past tournament results will back me up on this. Tanya, Lao, and Quan, all characters considered too strong by the community, frequented top tournament standings often and in great numbers.

As for CSZ being too strong you could be right. I think it's too early to make any rash decisions. I remember a time when miss Tanya had an OP teleport. In attempt to fix her it was nerfed 2 or 3 times fairly quickly. All that was achieved was the death of Pyromancer and Dragon Naginata. Kobu Jitsu remained insane until last week. To avoid such disaster we as a community should be patient with new characters and new buffs. Give people time to develop the character and other time to try and counter it. And if it is too strong we definitely need time to determine the the fix should be.

I'm pretty sure there's no more patches for MKX so this whole "nerfing / buffing" discussion that's been happening every where is pretty pointless.

 

[REO]

his mix-ups might be really good, but what else does he have?

it seems like his lack of a decent mid or any real frame traps is going to hurt him when trying to set up an offense. as far as I know right now, he's either going to be turtling for an opportunity or relying on the bomb guessing game to succeed.

- Dive kick is one of the best whiff punishers in the game. Empty jump back dive kick is really good if someone tries to swing in the neutral. Dive kick is also completely safe on block from the waist down so it's a very good tool to use in the neutral to condition someone to block or be patient. This is when you do things like go for jump-in attacks or place Ice Bombs on the map.

- His ice ball is one of the best ground projectiles in the game and it leads to a full combo on hit. EX one is even better and covers jumps / antsy players trying to move after something / making 50/50s relatively safe, etc. CSZ's zoning is underrated.

- Close bomb and mid bomb in neutral are ridiculous against characters with average mobility or who have to approach CSZ and play his game. They don't go away like other trap type characters such as Predator's ground snap, Sub-Zero's ice clone, Alien egg, etc.

- Cyber Sub is one of the hardest characters to zone in the game because his Low Slide is very fast (9f) and low profiles high projectiles on the first frame. This means characters who rely on projectiles for their neutral game like Kitana will suffer and have to change their entire game plan. CSZ's dive kick can also reach and punish many projectiles from FULL SCREEN by forward jumping and doing the far dive kick.

- He has arguably one of the best anti-airs in the game with standing 4 which beefs up his neutral since you can't just jump at him for no full combo punishment. This makes him control the air very well along with jump back dive kicks, EX ice beam, and etc.

- When Cyber Sub lands a hit, he has some of the best corner carry in the game and we all know what happens when he puts you in the corner. Odds are usually in his favor.



I mean, I don't mean to sound a bit elitist here, but there's more to a neutral in fighting game than just mashing a half screen MID normal.

If you guys think CSZ is lacking because he has bad mids and a super bad neutral then just play Smoke or Sektor. Smoke has retarded mids and I'm assuming he's way better than CSZ to people because he has that golden tool. Sektor's up rocket is probably one of the best neutral tools in the game also and makes almost every character in the game have to approach or play Sektor's game.

 

[MadPropz101]

Ppl complaining about triborgs lackluster mids, meanwhile Leatherface doesn't even have a mid

 

[RYX]

- Dive kick is one of the best whiff punishers in the game. Empty jump back dive kick is really good if someone tries to swing in the neutral. Dive kick is also completely safe on block from the waist down so it's a very good tool to use in the neutral to condition someone to block or be patient. This is when you do things like go for jump-in attacks or place Ice Bombs on the map.

- His ice ball is one of the best ground projectiles in the game and it leads to a full combo on hit. EX one is even better and covers jumps / antsy players trying to move after something / making 50/50s relatively safe, etc. CSZ's zoning is underrated.

- Close bomb and mid bomb in neutral are ridiculous against characters with average mobility or who have to approach CSZ and play his game. They don't go away like other trap type characters such as Predator's ground snap, Sub-Zero's ice clone, Alien egg, etc.

- Cyber Sub is one of the hardest characters to zone in the game because his Low Slide is very fast (9f) and low profiles high projectiles on the first frame. This means characters who rely on projectiles for their neutral game like Kitana will suffer and have to change their entire game plan. CSZ's dive kick can also reach and punish many projectiles from FULL SCREEN by forward jumping and doing the far dive kick.

- He has arguably one of the best anti-airs in the game with standing 4 which beefs up his neutral since you can't just jump at him for no full combo punishment. This makes him control the air very well along with jump back dive kicks, EX ice beam, and etc.

- When Cyber Sub lands a hit, he has some of the best corner carry in the game and we all know what happens when he puts you in the corner. Odds are usually in his favor.



I mean, I don't mean to sound a bit elitist here, but there's more to a neutral in fighting game than just mashing a half screen MID normal.

If you guys think CSZ is lacking because he has bad mids and a super bad neutral then just play Smoke or Sektor. Smoke has (soap bar in my mouth) mids and I'm assuming he's way better than CSZ to people because he has that golden tool. Sektor's up rocket is probably one of the best neutral tools in the game also and makes almost every character in the game have to approach or play Sektor's game.

sorry, I worded my post really poorly. my bad

most of what you said lines up with how I imagine him playing out; there's some other stuff you listed that I didn't think about. He's got a very lame game plan where his offense is mostly a good defense until he corners you, and then he turns into a brick wall who mixups you to death. His offense alone isn't spectacular in the traditional sense but he doesn't have a need for traditional offense.

I think people are complaining about the wrong things, though. His ice ball is really fast for how quickly it recovers; arguably too fast for either of them. I think his dive kick might be too safe for good it is at punishing everything; definitely needs to be able to blow him up for a bad read. But, to me, at least right now, targeting his mix-up game would be a bad way to nerf him, because it's the majority of what he does when he's able to play the aggressor, if that makes sense.

Mind you, I'm nearly as talented as actual good players like yourself, but if I'm wrong, then I'm happy to be corrected sooner than later.