Curious question about Fighting Games and their popularity

[trufenix]

It seems you haven't read my post. Tell me how MMOs, RTSes and MOBAs are just button-mashing babysitting? Have you seen the hands of a pro StarCraft player?

You play all those games by moving a mouse and clicking. That's it. The execution barrier there is TINY. Got eyes? Got hands? Got a mouse pad? Congratulations, you can do every single "move" in those games. Meanwhile, people are still picking up new fighting games unable to do something as simple as qcf+punch. Add double fireballs, triple button presses, taps, double taps, etc. Starcraft doesn't have dropped combos, just bad decisions and slow players, so its automatically easier to understand and appreciate.

As for your execution barrier point, if you're not absolutely fuck lazy, you can take 5 minutes to go practice a combo in training mode by breaking it down piece by piece and get it down. There are also games like P4A and SFxT where they give you easier alternatives to combo and have less benefit from it. I don't see those games having a large following either.

Calling people who can't execute fucking lazy is a pretty douche move, but even if it was a matter of laziness, the simple fact is it took 5 minutes to learn how to do the equivalent of clicking a button in a MOBA. Five minutes learning a single combo that you've never landed or even know when to use because your opponent is a motionless dummy. In a MOBA, I spend a fraction of a second figuring out which button is "Divine Slash" and spend the next 4.9 minutes figuring out how and when to use it in real life matches. Which do you think ADD fueled gamers will flock to?

I don't think the execution barrier is the problem. You don't need execution to appreciate high level play, and one could even argue that RTS games at the highest level have an equally large execution barrier due to the amount of actions per minute you have to do.

Most armchair "whatevers" (and this includes live sports) are people who would be playing those games if they had the time, money, skill, age, etc. No one is going to regularly watch something can't play / follow. People out there watching basketball already know whats involved in dribbling a ball or throwing it in a hoop, which is why they can appreciate (or get hype) when someone like Lebron James is really fucking good at it.

I do agree that there's nothing going on in fighters that the average gamer can't understand or appreciate....but the problem is that I think its something they need to learn to appreciate somewhat.

Right. The execution barrier. That's the missing piece of the puzzle. If you don't know how 3s works, you don't even know why EVO Moment #37 is hype. The roar of the crowd or the reactions of the players tells you its hype, but your brain doesn't know why, so instead of thinking "omg, this is amazing I need more" you just think "that was neat I guess" and move on to the next otherwise indistinguishable comeback in a fighting game.

 

[Eric The Scruffy]

I just don't think that is the issue. There are other factors that are more obvious/influential. MOBA's and RTS's have always been on PC, which is sort of a universal platform worldwide. Fighting games have had to go through this awkward transition of being mainly in arcades, to being on consoles at home. Neither is as common as a PC. Also, fighting games suffer greatly when there is lag, MOBA's, not so much. The online communities for these games are huge as a result of the platform and the stability of online play where a few frames of lag wont make the game unplayable.

I agree with that actually, it was another good point UltraDavid brought up I thought. Lag still makes a difference in other genres but generally speaking the transition between online play and offline is probably much more forgiving.

Right. The execution barrier. That's the missing piece of the puzzle. If you don't know how 3s works, you don't even know why EVO Moment #37 is hype. The roar of the crowd or the reactions of the players tells you its hype, but your brain doesn't know why, so instead of thinking "omg, this is amazing I need more" you just think "that was neat I guess" and move on to the next otherwise indistinguishable comeback in a fighting game.

What exactly do you define as an "execution barrier"? To me an execution barrier is whether or not you can pull off one frame links in Street Fighter or complete touch of death combos in Marvel. That's not the same as understanding the fundamentals of how the game works, which IMO is whats actually missing.

 

[trufenix]

I disagree. We have people who actually play Injustice and don't understand its footsies. How can an average gamer who has never played a fighting game in his life understand the complexity of a neutral game?

EVERYONE understands footsies. You pressed buttons and hit me because I wasn't blocking, I pressed buttons and hit you because you weren't blocking. Wether you call it "footsies" or "I'm shit at being patient" is just a matter of ignorance like the whole zoning vs spamming discussion. If your playing, yeah there's a certain degree of knowledge that has to be involved but if you're watching the only thing that's "complex" is that this guy is better than the other guy or wow these guys are really even.

 

[Jeffreys]

MOBA's are not super "complex" or "execution" heavy any more than fighting games. At least DotA isn't and I've been playing it for ten years. I would even go to say getting into a fighting game competitively is a lot more difficult to do than getting into a MOBA competitively. (again, I guess it's just DotA)

DotA is popular for four basic reasons:

- Netplay is superb
- Infinite balance patches and content which gives it virtually infinite replay value for many
- It's FREE and on the most common gaming platform ever (PC)
- The "casual" community is linked together with the "competitive" community through marketing and advertising. This basically means DotA releases super uber cool "costumes" or funny gadgets that casual players purchase, a portion of the money spent to buy any of this items goes to tournament price pots for the competitive scene. It's a win / win scenario for all. Competitive tourneys and such are also featured and advertised on the homepage of DotA game for all to see and you can watch live games by purchasing tickets that ALSO go into tournament pots... Valve so smart.

The most important part is the balance, its always about the balance. The FGC has this retarded logic of "dont complain about balance adapt scrub." Thats why the FGC will forever be a shitty hobby and not a real esport. For MOBAS Dota and LoL do different things but in the name of balance. Dota buffs all weak heroes constantly tries to ensure that nearly every hero is viable. In the last International Tournament only 10 out of almost 100+ characters were not picked among the top teams (http://www.liquiddota.com/forum/ti4/461854-hero-and-player-stats-following-ti4-groups) and recently Icefrog has buffed and/or changed all the heroes that were perceived as weak and for the most part slightly nerfs the heroes that seemed to be too strong. I haven't played LoL but from what I have heard, Riot heavily nerfs the champions that are too strong~ While I may not agree with that tactic again it is all done for balance.

In RTS's Starcraft 2 is constantly being balanced by Blizzard, they constantly nerf or buff units. This is why even though Starcraft 2 is probably a hundred times harder than most games any console player will play there is still a following of people that understand that for the most part that one player won because of their skill and not their race.

Hell even Console games had gotten true notoriety in the competitive scene, MLG was BUILT on Halo. In the original Halo's nearly everything was balanced, and the only way you could differentiate yourself was by skill. Before Bungie fucked everything up with Halo Reach and 343 with Halo 4, Halo was exceptionally well followed and the tournaments well attended.

TLDR: The majority of people enjoy true balance, if they put time and effort into something and lose to something that they have little to no control over then the interest in that game dies. Because the FGC community itself is so toxic to balance changes then they are the reasons why the FGC will continually be a niche and trully unsustainable hobby.

Read it and weep: http://www.esportsearnings.com/players/highest_overall

 

[coolwhip]

EVERYONE understands footsies. You pressed buttons and hit me because I wasn't blocking, I pressed buttons and hit you because you weren't blocking. Wether you call it "footsies" or "I'm shit at being patient" is just a matter of ignorance like the whole zoning vs spamming discussion. If your playing, yeah there's a certain degree of knowledge that has to be involved but if you're watching the only thing that's "complex" is that this guy is better than the other guy or wow these guys are really even.

Can't begin to explain how simplistic this is. On the most basic level, sure, you're correct. But it takes a deeper understanding than that to gain a true appreciation of what's going on in a fighting game, especially since the action is so fast. I'll bet a decent chunk of money that there are many people here who play a ton of NRS fighting games that can't understand shit when they watch Marvel.

Never mind that the process of being able to hit someone (at a high level) and the footsie game in general is more complicated than simply I pressed a button and was able to hit you.

 

[trufenix]

What exactly do you define as an "execution barrier"? To me an execution barrier is whether or not you can pull off one frame links in Street Fighter or complete touch of death combos in Marvel.

Not even close. The execution barrier is where all these videos of MKX at gamer conventions (you know, where people who are gamers and do gaming seriously as a hobby, though maybe not specifically fighters) can only jump and mash buttons and go oooh / ahhh at how much blood comes out for 3-4 minutes. If you can't even DO a fireball, how can you appreciate watching Valle and Daigo have a 2 minute long fireball war? Whats in that for you as a viewer? Look at the youtube comments, undoubtedly somebody said, this is just two idiots spamming. And yet these are the people you're asking to fluff your stream numbers.

That's not the same as understanding the fundamentals of how the game works, which IMO is whats actually missing.

Again, the part where one guy gets hit until he falls over, everybody gets. You don't have to learn frame data or hitboxes to appreciate a comeback or a blow out because the life bars tell you that story. And that in and of itself is interesting, to a degree. It's why tons of people just keep the stream on all day when they know fighting game they don't want to watch is sandwiched in between two shooters or rpgs or action games they do want to watch.

But if you want people to stay and get invested, they have to understand the whys and the hows, and that's the part just watching the stream doesn't give you. Until you go into the trenches and find out the details throws, wakeups, block strings, and zoning just look "cheap". Unfortunately, people who pick the controller up and immediately put it down because they broke their hands just trying to get through the tutorial or jumped online and got absolutely obliterated by moves they didn't even know were in the game never get there. Again, these are the people you're asking to fluff numbers.

WHen you're talking about thousands of viewers / players at evo vs millions of viewers / players in WoW or CoD, you're not talking about converting a few smash players into mk players. You're talking about getting people who literally can't hold back to block to understand why Batgirl's not just the unthreatened lord and master of the game.

 

[trufenix]

Can't begin to explain how simplistic this is. On the most basic level, sure, you're correct. But it takes a deeper understanding than that to gain a true appreciation of what's going on in a fighting game, especially since the action is so fast. I'll bet a decent chunk of money that there are many people here who play a ton of NRS fighting games that can't understand shit when they watch Marvel.

Never mind that the process of being able to hit someone (at a high level) and the footsie game in general is more complicated than simply I pressed a button and was able to hit you.

You don't need a true appreciation to watch and enjoy. That's what I'm talking about. There are plenty of people who can't play marvel (myself included) who love to watch marvel because they understand the core concepts. Same with any game. Are they experts? Are they top 8 material? No, but they can get hype and appreciate it all the same because they understand the basics. I know what a fireball is. I know what a link is. I know what I'm watching. People who can't do fireballs or links don't know what they're watching.

 

[Eric The Scruffy]

Not even close. The execution barrier is where all these videos of MKX at gamer conventions (you know, where people who are gamers and do gaming seriously as a hobby, though maybe not specifically fighters) can only jump and mash buttons and go oooh / ahhh at how much blood comes out for 3-4 minutes. If you can't even DO a fireball, how can you appreciate watching Valle and Daigo have a 2 minute long fireball war? Whats in that for you as a viewer? Look at the youtube comments, undoubtedly somebody said, this is just two idiots spamming. And yet these are the people you're asking to fluff your stream numbers.

What I listed was the extreme end of the spectrum but its still the same thing you're talking about. Execution is about whether or not you can perform the move/function that in your head you have already made the decision to do.
Unless you are accidentally holding up on the stick, jumping versus walking forward is not a matter of execution.
The example you listed complaining about valle and daigo "spamming" is what I'm talking about. Scrubs do not say that because they cannot properly execute fireballs.

Comments like that exist because despite what you are arguing, they do not understand how footsies work.

 

[Mst]

Not even close. The execution barrier is where all these videos of MKX at gamer conventions (you know, where people who are gamers and do gaming seriously as a hobby, though maybe not specifically fighters) can only jump and mash buttons and go oooh / ahhh at how much blood comes out for 3-4 minutes. If you can't even DO a fireball, how can you appreciate watching Valle and Daigo have a 2 minute long fireball war? Whats in that for you as a viewer? Look at the youtube comments, undoubtedly somebody said, this is just two idiots spamming. And yet these are the people you're asking to fluff your stream numbers.



Again, the part where one guy gets hit until he falls over, everybody gets. You don't have to learn frame data or hitboxes to appreciate a comeback or a blow out because the life bars tell you that story. And that in and of itself is interesting, to a degree. It's why tons of people just keep the stream on all day when they know fighting game they don't want to watch is sandwiched in between two shooters or rpgs or action games they do want to watch.

But if you want people to stay and get invested, they have to understand the whys and the hows, and that's the part just watching the stream doesn't give you. Until you go into the trenches and find out the details throws, wakeups, block strings, and zoning just look "cheap". Unfortunately, people who pick the controller up and immediately put it down because they broke their hands just trying to get through the tutorial or jumped online and got absolutely obliterated by moves they didn't even know were in the game never get there. Again, these are the people you're asking to fluff numbers.

WHen you're talking about thousands of viewers / players at evo vs millions of viewers / players in WoW or CoD, you're not talking about converting a few smash players into mk players. You're talking about getting people who literally can't hold back to block to understand why Batgirl's not just the unthreatened lord and master of the game.

You shouldnt compare people who have no clue that there is anykind of system behind fighting games and mash buttons randomly and have no idea that there is any kind of pro scene for suchs games to people who watch and play games such as BW and are not capable to bring 500 actions exactly there where it is needed within one minute.

And btw anyone who has Eyes, Hands and some kind of controller can do everything pro players do in any game, which is exactly the thing which makes game that great, that everyone can do everything as long as he puts enough effort into it. The deciding factor if you are a top notch player or a just average player is that you can bring your A game and utilize all those things when it matter be it treads switching infight to get a extra refraction off, deny all your units to deny a lvl up, make the deciding rail gun shot or parry a move/punish a move when it really matters (or any of the other thousand things which a pro player can do to make the difference when it matters).

A huge part holding fighting games back in my opinion is really that every thing is so split up between communitys and games, which makes the single parts looking small. Something similar did happen with SC2 at the end of 2013 start of 2014 where the viewer numbers were pretty small compared to games like DotA2 and LoL but compared to the active community the game had the numbers were still really impressive.

Its not that easy to compare scenes/games with each other because the basic conditions are so different. Riot is pushing LoL heavily as a competitive game with the LCS model and afaik losing money with it. But its also a deciding factor which made LoL to a huge game. Got all those sponsors (Nissan, Coke, Intel, Razer....). A game with 27 million active players will obviously have more stream viewers compared with a game with 4 million copies sold.

 

[THTB]

Fighting games, at the highest level, don't have that factor unless you play them. If you don't know a certain frame trap (or even know what that is), you don't understand that it's happening. You'd think it's just someone blocking a close st.MP, for example. And time after time, in the 3/5 set, someone does close st.MP then does nothing afterwards. When they finally, in the last round, land a close CH st.HP right after it, having spent the whole set training their opponent, that is a huge moment, and it's frigging awesome to watch. If you understand it. If you dont, you're just seeing a "random" hit like any other.

You guys are looking too far into the technical parts of a fighting game and not the simpler parts.

Not everyone will understand and appreciate that part. But people are aware of when a player lands a lot of damage in a short span of time or when they make a comeback. They are aware of the lifebars, which are a very direct way of indicating who is winning a round.

When you ignore the technicalities of fighting games and just look at the things you actually need to follow, you realize that it's MUCH more fit for spectators than something like League of Legends, where you have to actually follow the game and pay attention to the commentators to know directly who is actually winning.

The main reason FGs aren't as popular is simple and it goes back to @d3v and @R.E.O.'s posts. FGs lost a lot of momentum and fell out of the spotlight, while MOBAs and RTSs never dealt with that and rose up as competitive gaming did. It's also the marketing and advertising...a number of FG devs still do not put that extra effort into things like teaching you the game beyond the barebone basics or feeding you tips and tournament information, and for the most part, do not directly run events themselves. The information is not fed to you within the games. Being PC-based is honestly not that big a factor. I could be wrong, but from what I am aware, console gaming is still more popular than PC gaming by a decent margin.

 

[THTB]

The most important part is the balance, its always about the balance. The FGC has this retarded logic of "dont complain about balance adapt scrub." Thats why the FGC will forever be a shitty hobby and not a real esport. For MOBAS Dota and LoL do different things but in the name of balance. Dota buffs all weak heroes constantly tries to ensure that nearly every hero is viable. In the last International Tournament only 10 out of almost 100+ characters were not picked among the top teams (http://www.liquiddota.com/forum/ti4/461854-hero-and-player-stats-following-ti4-groups) and recently Icefrog has buffed and/or changed all the heroes that were perceived as weak and for the most part slightly nerfs the heroes that seemed to be too strong. I haven't played LoL but from what I have heard, Riot heavily nerfs the champions that are too strong~ While I may not agree with that tactic again it is all done for balance.

In RTS's Starcraft 2 is constantly being balanced by Blizzard, they constantly nerf or buff units. This is why even though Starcraft 2 is probably a hundred times harder than most games any console player will play there is still a following of people that understand that for the most part that one player won because of their skill and not their race.

Hell even Console games had gotten true notoriety in the competitive scene, MLG was BUILT on Halo. In the original Halo's nearly everything was balanced, and the only way you could differentiate yourself was by skill. Before Bungie fucked everything up with Halo Reach and 343 with Halo 4, Halo was exceptionally well followed and the tournaments well attended.

TLDR: The majority of people enjoy true balance, if they put time and effort into something and lose to something that they have little to no control over then the interest in that game dies. Because the FGC community itself is so toxic to balance changes then they are the reasons why the FGC will continually be a niche and trully unsustainable hobby.

Read it and weep: http://www.esportsearnings.com/players/highest_overall

This actually is a factor, but then again, Melee exists. And we know how that is. Also, MOBAs aren't really that balanced...at least LoL isn't. But you are correct in that the FGC is, honestly, toxic when it comes to balance changes. Part of that is still due to a pretty heavy influence on the arcade players and the culture that existed back in the glory days. But also because most fighting games aren't strictly PC, so patching isn't free.

 

[Icy Black Deep]

Fighting games are hard to follow.
Just look at the guy up there saying footsies are about not blocking and getting hit. The fact is that footsies are about spacing. And since hitboxes rarely match a character's visual location the specific spacing is really some specialized knowledge that a lay viewer or even a casual player is not going to have. A knowledgeable commentator can help explain what's going on, but with the number of characters in any game and fragmentation amongst the games such people are very rare.
And then there are option selects that can't even be seen and you can only infer their use--if you know about them.

My prescription for fighting games to do better with spectators: A spectator mode with visible hitboxes, input display, and playback capabilities (and it pretty much has to be on PC to make that all tractable). You need that instant replay and you need to be able to show what was really going on. You'll still need people knowledgeable and talented to pick out the important bits, but you'll give them the tools to express themselves.

 

[The PantyChrist]

The same reason white people think Kanye west is a good rapper

 

[CrimsonShadow]

The same reason white people think Kanye west is a good rapper

???

 

[Bildslash]

Execution and the reward system (or lack of thereof) are the biggest barriers.

Not everyone has the patience and motivation to go through the motions, the drills, the hardships of learning a fighting game from scratch. Simply because the only explicit reward are victories over your opponents. There are no milestones or intermediate steps unlike other genres where you can start reaping benefits early on.

 

[Doombawkz]

Fighting games take longer to produce, and have less market power. There are 5 fighting games, none of which can be said is inferior.
MvC3, SF, DoA, MK/INJ, and KoF all have seperate followings, and are all dynamically different. Their difference prevents all but a select few from being in shared pools.
Fighting games can't just be picked up and learned in a day, usually. The technical side turns away a lot of people, and the stigma against new players is there.

Mobas take less time to produce and all of them fit a genre with minor changes, so there's no learning curve outside of new mechanics. A skillshot is a skillshot, changing the game doesn't change what it is, just what it does.
Likewise, MoBAs and some shooters have huge market power. Followings also tend to be linked somewhat, where there are some loyalists but the pools draw from eachother.
MoBAs can be picked up for free in most cases, and give the player more benefit because of the team aspect. Bad players can get through games and learn slowly, good players can drag along bad teammates.

MoBAs also have more customization, and thus makes the player more responsible for their performance. Their choices in items, their skill in last hitting, and their ability to outplay is more important than in fighters.
Taking that into consideration, players are more likely to keep trying when they fail since they have room to change their build or decisions without having to per se dedicate 100 hours to it.
If they fail early, they can make up for it later. They can get ahead early and fall behind as well. In a fighter, you either win the round or lose it. If someone frauds you out, you don't get another 30 minutes to learn and go again.


Thats my idea on it at least. Fighting games are telling a fish to climb a tree versus a monkey. Sure the fish might do it, or even get better than the monkey, but otherwise the fish is like "why would I try to climb this tree? There is no point."
If the fish doesn't travel, the best they can have is online spammers and the occasional good player.

Meanwhile on Mobas, they can get up to rank 1 in tree climbing, or be a diamond tree climber, and it actually means something. The skill cap is automatically raised to suit them. They grow, and even if they can't travel, they aren't still stuck fighting bronze 5 or potato MMR people. Fighting games have tried this with skill ranking, but its too easy to climb skill and then you have trash in the higher rankings. Players see this and think "this is all the game has to offer". Meanwhile if you play a MOBA? You can't be terrible and still rank up, because eventually you'll hit that wall where you can no longer climb because those who stand before you are much better. Players who see you, beat you, pass you, and you fall down to where you belong.

 

[haketh]

The same reason white people think Kanye west is a good rapper

Uuuuuuuuuh fam what

 

[VOR]

In talking to some of my casual gamer friends, most of them are only slightly interested in Mortal Kombat and MvC. Of course I am a fan of other fighting games as well, but if I was not a fighting gamer, I would have virtually zero interest in Tekken, KoF, or any anime game etc. SF speaks to some people for nostalgia. Tbh I think something that holds fighting games back is their lack of evolution in art style, presentation, and entertainment value. When MK1 came out, it was truly a milestone in the history of entertainment. It pushed boundaries and was controversial. It's been a while and fighting games aren't really pushing the envelope any more. I think NRS is company who still captivates casual gamers, and Marvel is still popular, but I think the presentation of other games just isn't up to par for the general public.

 

[Juggs]

One aspect definitely is viewer participation and knowledge. The more you understand what is going on the more you appreciate what you're watching. The majority of people watching football for example don't know the super technical stuff, but understand the basics. I think the problem with fighters is the incentive to understand it more just isn't there. As a viewer who knows nothing about fighters, to them it looks like virtually the same thing over and over. Sure the comebacks and excellent gameplay is appealing, but comebacks don't happen often enough and moments like Daigo's parry happen on extremely rare occasions. But knowing super technical stuff about fighters shouldn't be required to enjoy watching it, and it isn't. Just like how easy it is to understand football, fighters are no different.

To answer the question, it's because the FGC is a lot smaller overall than MOBA, RTS, FPS, etc communities. The reason why has already been stated. We just need to work on growing the FGC. I mean, that isn't a super in depth answer or something not known, but I think it's just as simple as that.

 

[Jaku2011]

Well I was watching Capcom Cup with a friend of mine who likes fighting games but is super casual not like a tournament watcher or anything and he asked me if I was gonna enter Capcom cup next year and I told him no those people would destroy me (also invitation only lol) he was confused because he didn't think anything they did looked hard to do, like Ryan Harts Ryu only throwing fireballs and such I had to set him straight about how much skill these people have. Most people I know only see combos as the end all of fighting games.

 

[d3v]

This actually is a factor, but then again, Melee exists. And we know how that is. Also, MOBAs aren't really that balanced...at least LoL isn't. But you are correct in that the FGC is, honestly, toxic when it comes to balance changes. Part of that is still due to a pretty heavy influence on the arcade players and the culture that existed back in the glory days. But also because most fighting games aren't strictly PC, so patching isn't free.

Lets also not forget that Marvel vs. Capcom 2 was also the number 1 fighting game for many years in the mid 2000s.

 

[Swindle]

This makes sense. Although how do you really implement how high-level FG is seen in-game? Would you have an announcer say absolutely everything that's going on?

"YOU'RE IN BLOCKSTUN! BE SURE TO PUNISH UNSAFE MOVES!" I don't see that working.

UltraDavid FTW.

 

[xenogorgeous]

all I know it's : watching competitive high level fighting game matches, it's way more entertaining, cool, exciting and hype, than watching boring competitive rpgs, fps and soccer video games ......

the "1 vs 1" essence spirit competition presented in fg brings a particular primitive inner/intrinsic aspect about trying to be the best and to overcome/overrule your opponent that none other videogame genre isn't able to emulate right that feeling.

 

[Jeremy KO]

One thing that is very appealing about mobas and FPSes is that they are both very "team focused" and not as individual focused as fighting games are. If you lose in a moba or a FPS, you can very easily put the blame on someone on your team. If you lose in a fighting game, you have to own up to your own loss. The lesser emphasis on self responsibility, and the higher emphasis on teamwork and cooperation appeals to a larger crowd.