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Community feedback: future balance issues

Konqrr

MK11 Kabal = MK9 Kitana
Nerf Ermac right NAO!

I am sure that the game will get a day 1 patch like MK9 and Injustice. NRS is constantly working on the game and at some point it has to be submitted for release. The work doesn't stop there and it will get a day 1 patch. From there I assume it will get balance updates/game changes with each DLC and 1 or 2 more after the DLC run is over.

This is all speculation on my part but it makes sense.
 

chemist4hire

I Got Guiled
They should of done some beta testing to initial tweak balance. The game we get day 1 will most likely have balance issues if they are starting from scratch and removed the legacy curve from previous games. You have to think of the first 6 months as a beta period and know that things will change.
 

THTB

Arez | Booya | Riu48 - Rest Easy, Friends
Tbh, there is no right time to balance. You don't know what kind of ridiculous stuff will come out within the first few months, and honestly, it sometimes doesn't take a whole half a year to figure out something is wrong. It sucks that the game comes out 2 months before EVO, because the game being displayed is so raw. We saw what happened at EVO with Injustice (not to discredit KDZ at all, because dammit he still was the Superman to put it all together that fast lol). Sometimes you can see the bullshit right away lol.

As far as a method to balance, in all honesty, the "buff the bottom only" method doesn't really work as you would intend. For starters, sometimes the top is just broken and has stuff they shouldn't have, such as one option that basically dominates the cast, or something that invalidates the way the rest of the cast has to operate. Also, with just buffing from the bottom, balance is already super delicate and, unless you precisely know what it takes (you likely won't), it may take hefty buffing to make a difference, and there may be things found that pushes those buffs far beyond what was expected, which just creates a new top that's broken.
 

trufenix

bye felicia
I'm still not well enough informed. There's something missing from the picture though. Is it a sales thing, because that's what it sounds like to me. Doesn't NRS have enough experience in the industry to know what to patch and what not to? I mean if they are listening to the players you're describing, what well thought out reasons do they give NRS to patch the game other than "I'm upset my favorite character lost to cheapness"?
Well, players are just people. They can be biased, they can be misunderstood, they can be outright wrong. Paolo (and whoever else makes final balance decisions) have to take everything they hear/see from every source (not just the people who say they're qualified) and distill it into actual changes in the game. A consensus amongst "top players" would be the best way, but how do you qualify top players? What if they disagree? What if nobody plays character x or uses move Y? There is always human error.

But if nothing else you have to keep in mind; MKvDC was practically unplayable competitiively, MK9s balance was hot fucking garbage but still better, and Injustice while flawed is way better balanced than most vanilla games. MKX's will be an improvement still. That's comforting.
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
Hopefully we get that one last patch we keep asking when its really needed.
MK9 and IGAU would be a much better game if they recieved that one last patch we all keep asking for.
 

Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
You're right about that, but what I mean is to only take advice from people that has spent time in the game and really knows what they're talking about, and I don't see any other way of doing this but taking advice only from top 8 players at tourneys, offline or online tourneys.

I wouldn't like to see any other Sub-Zero MK9 situation in MKX. It was sad to see that happening, because ignorance won knowledge.
In fairness, I don't travel much but I'm very in-touch with Bane's mechanics and inner workings. I'm not what one would regard as a "top player" or even a "good player", but very few can say that I don't know my character. Other top players (Max, Bipolar, Biohazard) are better with their hands, but I would think that I've affirmed myself as a solid Bane tech monster.

I've never placed top 8 at anything that isn't running or eating. Should I be disregarded, in spite of the fact that I would be more likely to find balance issues and broken things faster than the "good" player that isn't as much of a lab monster?
 

Fractured_Shadow

Really likes to throw things at you.
Tbh, there is no right time to balance. You don't know what kind of ridiculous stuff will come out within the first few months, and honestly, it sometimes doesn't take a whole half a year to figure out something is wrong. It sucks that the game comes out 2 months before EVO, because the game being displayed is so raw. We saw what happened at EVO with Injustice (not to discredit KDZ at all, because dammit he still was the Superman to put it all together that fast lol). Sometimes you can see the bullshit right away lol.

As far as a method to balance, in all honesty, the "buff the bottom only" method doesn't really work as you would intend. For starters, sometimes the top is just broken and has stuff they shouldn't have, such as one option that basically dominates the cast, or something that invalidates the way the rest of the cast has to operate. Also, with just buffing from the bottom, balance is already super delicate and, unless you precisely know what it takes (you likely won't), it may take hefty buffing to make a difference, and there may be things found that pushes those buffs far beyond what was expected, which just creates a new top that's broken.
Great post. I'm really starting to like you.

The patches will come as needed and honestly I'm expecting quite a few of them due to the EXTREAME amount of tech that will go undiscovered for a while because of the variations. If we have 30 characters we basically have 90 different playstyles/movesets to look through. New and broken shit will be discovered for a while after release and needs to be addressed accordingly.
 

Pig Of The Hut

Day 0 Phenomenal Dr. Fate and Darkseid player
This thread hurts my eyes

Too early by a minimum 5-6 months and way too much "dumb" to respond to

Have fun
 
Tbh, there is no right time to balance. You don't know what kind of ridiculous stuff will come out within the first few months, and honestly, it sometimes doesn't take a whole half a year to figure out something is wrong. It sucks that the game comes out 2 months before EVO, because the game being displayed is so raw. We saw what happened at EVO with Injustice (not to discredit KDZ at all, because dammit he still was the Superman to put it all together that fast lol). Sometimes you can see the bullshit right away lol.

As far as a method to balance, in all honesty, the "buff the bottom only" method doesn't really work as you would intend. For starters, sometimes the top is just broken and has stuff they shouldn't have, such as one option that basically dominates the cast, or something that invalidates the way the rest of the cast has to operate. Also, with just buffing from the bottom, balance is already super delicate and, unless you precisely know what it takes (you likely won't), it may take hefty buffing to make a difference, and there may be things found that pushes those buffs far beyond what was expected, which just creates a new top that's broken.
Are there other methods that exist to balance a game after it's release, besides the one you mentioned? And given what you've stated, would you be inclined to say that ultimately patching has no real value beyond patching glitches and inifinites? Since it's obvious that any adjustment you make to one moves' property, would have a ripple effect on the rest of the moves in the game.

Well, players are just people. They can be biased, they can be misunderstood, they can be outright wrong. Paolo (and whoever else makes final balance decisions) have to take everything they hear/see from every source (not just the people who say they're qualified) and distill it into actual changes in the game. A consensus amongst "top players" would be the best way, but how do you qualify top players? What if they disagree? What if nobody plays character x or uses move Y? There is always human error.
Good points all around. While maybe not realistic, I think ideally a top player would maybe be someone that realizes the pros and cons of every single match-up (or at the least, someone who understands all match-ups against a specific character), thoroughly and that looks for feedback from a community like this. And if such players say a certain match-up is an 8-2 for whatever reason, we can then assess these observations as a community and try to form a consensus on it. So I don't it's just about something like tournament placings to be honest. Also, since I never really got too deep into MK9's meta, what were some of the primary reasons for bad match-ups?
 

trufenix

bye felicia
Good points all around. While maybe not realistic, I think ideally a top player would maybe be someone that realizes the pros and cons of every single match-up (or at the least, someone who understands all match-ups against a specific character), thoroughly and that looks for feedback from a community like this. And if such players say a certain match-up is an 8-2 for whatever reason, we can then assess these observations as a community and try to form a consensus on it. So I don't it's just about something like tournament placings to be honest. Also, since I never really got too deep into MK9's meta, what were some of the primary reasons for bad match-ups?
Unfortunately, the last (and most difficult) hurdle in the balance equation is time. The truly "top players" would love developers to adopt a similarly long term pov on balancing because it takes time to figure out the pros and cons of every single matchup, but unfortunately that's just not how the development world works.
 

Cossner

King of the Jobbers 2015
Administrator
The way they patch things is fine, they should just need spread it a little bit more throughout the months.

But the OP is super dumb. Like, "comment on balance from seeing footage of randoms mashing buttons and staged matches". What kind of Filthy Casual™ thread is this.
 
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RoboCop

The future of law enforcement.
Administrator
Premium Supporter
Actually, there is one balance issue that is timeless: Don't patch based on input from online scrubs!!! They never discover the really dirty hard-to-do shit, but they get all of the other characters nerfed so the really dirty hard-to-do shit is even dirtier! Cripes!!!
 
The way they patch things is fine, they should just need spread it a little bit throughout the months.

But the OP is super dumb. Like, "comment on balance from seeing footage of randoms mashing buttons and staged matches". What kind of Filthy Casual™ thread is this.
Thanks Cossner! It's nice to know I'm accepted by you and all the other egotistical, arrogant, two faced pricks on this site. Of course not everyone on here is, but you wouldn't know anything about that would you now?

And sorry I'm not the "expert gamer" you are apparently. But no, you and others have to insult someone that's trying to get involved in the community and learn at the same time. But tell me this smart guy... why is there so much talk in MKX character threads in regards to analysis of what moves look useless or broken at this point, when we don't even know moves of the unrevealed roster? Because my intentions toward making this thread, was to be based around updating the OP, thinking there might be some valuable analysis players have in other threads (about things like start-up frames for instance), except make everything centralized for devs to read. But you know what... you're right. The game isn't even out yet, yet some players are discussing things such as move properties and so forth, when nothing is even finalized yet. (No offense to you guys)

So you go ahead and keep running your mouth and treating people the way that you do. Because one day you're going to meet someone that's one step ahead of you, who puts you in your place and makes you think twice about the things you've spat.
 

juicepouch

blink-182 enthusiast
Do not... under any circumstances... put something like this in MKX. It ALWAYS leads to balance issues in NRS titles.

If instant air fireballs are a thing, they need adequate recovery.
Not to mention they are boring as fuck.
agreed. I'd like them to take out horizontal instant airs completely. Leave in stuff like superman's sweep lazer or akuma's air diagonal fireball maybe for the sake of interesting zoning, but i think nrs would have enough things to worry about balancing properly without having to worry about something that's given them such trouble in the past
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
there's gonna be that one character that has an instant air fireball half the cast won't be able to deal with if we look at mk9 and igau.
This community legitimate killed 2 characters and made 3-4 ridiculous ones. All online players did was get a barely noticeable change to Deathstroke
Do not... under any circumstances... put something like this in MKX. It ALWAYS leads to balance issues in NRS titles.

If instant air fireballs are a thing, they need adequate recovery.
Not to mention they are boring as fuck.
How do you make the game better and more balanced? You may start by disregarding comments made by scrubs such as the ones above.
 

juicepouch

blink-182 enthusiast
Thanks Cossner! It's nice to know I'm accepted by you and all the other egotistical, arrogant, two faced pricks on this site. Of course not everyone on here is, but you wouldn't know anything about that would you now?

And sorry I'm not the "expert gamer" you are apparently. But no, you and others have to insult someone that's trying to get involved in the community and learn at the same time. But tell me this smart guy... why is there so much talk in MKX character threads in regards to analysis of what moves look useless or broken at this point, when we don't even know moves of the unrevealed roster? Because my intentions toward making this thread, was to be based around updating the OP, thinking there might be some valuable analysis players have in other threads (about things like start-up frames for instance), except make everything centralized for devs to read. But you know what... you're right. The game isn't even out yet, yet some players are discussing things such as move properties and so forth, when nothing is even finalized yet. (No offense to you guys)

So you go ahead and keep running your mouth and treating people the way that you do. Because one day you're going to meet someone that's one step ahead of you, who puts you in your place and makes you think twice about the things you've spat.
no offense but I think cossner has a valid point, it's really not worth it to talk balancing moves when we have no concept of how they work within the engine of the game as well as alongside the other character's tools outside of a few gameplay trailers and reveals where neither character ever blocks. No talk about the more general points (which moves look useless) or the more tangible (the start up frames of said moves) can possibly hold any weight when we've yet to experience and learn the game in practically any capacity
 
no offense but I think cossner has a valid point, it's really not worth it to talk balancing moves when we have no concept of how they work within the engine of the game as well as alongside the other character's tools outside of a few gameplay trailers and reveals where neither character ever blocks. No talk about the more general points (which moves look useless) or the more tangible (the start up frames of said moves) can possibly hold any weight when we've yet to experience and learn the game in practically any capacity
Yeah and that's what I explained to him in the same post you quoted. I just don't think there is a reason for insults. And this isn't the first time I've seen him bash new players on this site without taking into consideration that we are all new to games at some point.