Command Grab - Bomb Trap PATCH?

[younghou]

i am new here ( i am scrub cyrax player lol).
the net reset is gone now too but i found you can do a weird net reset like fp>bp>net>dash>fp>bp>net and now you can dash>(wait a bit)comand throw or dash>fp>bp(hit confirm)>intro net again offcourse if you land the comand throw you can jump forward punch him intro other comand throw or fp>bp again

 

[OtherworldOdd]

Is robot Cyrax now the same tier as human Cyrax now that the bomb trap is fixed?

 

[Sporko]

I'd have to imagine robot cyrax is still a bit better due to faster bombs and nets, though human cyrax does have a couple of advantages of his own, i.e. safer teleport and tech-crouching nets.

 

[Sultani]

I think we should put two changes in to fix something and then take it out of the game entirely on top of it. Seriously.. wtf?

Pressing one button to tech a gigantic amount of frames isn't enough? Being able to break every single hit afterwards isn't more than enough?

After taking out the damage scaling reset, the combo would probably have been in the mid 40% range with the CG and trap included. Unfortunately this is now untestable.

For the people who kept saying things like, "Cyrax has a throw that does 50% blah blah blah..."

This is like saying ANY of the following things...

Kung Lao has a FP that does 40%, Ermac has a b + FP that does 47%, Kitana has a f + BP that does 43%, Quan Chi has a b + BP that does 34%, Kabal has a jumpkick that does 31%, Scorpion's harpoon does 41%.... etc, etc, you get the point (hopefully).

Would anyone in their right minds be in favor of not only putting in TWO different ways to stop these combos, but also taking them completely out of the game on top of it? That's exactly what you've done to Cyrax; it is absolutely no different than removing any other big combo from any character except for the FACT that Cyrax's combo is actually more easily broken and teched than any of the above mentioned.. and also one of his skills is now completely worthless.

 

[CptXecution]

Cyrax command throw....plain and simple....should be able to be broken easier and it's cheap because there's NOTHING you can do about it once you get grabbed and comboed with it. THAT'S why it should be changed NOT taken out. And people need to stop comparing it to Kung Lao's spin because it's nothing like it. His spin is HIGHLY punishable and can be BLOCKED. I just can't stand how a decent cyrax can use ONE meter and have a garunteed 50% AT LEAST.

 

[Sultani]

Cyrax command throw....plain and simple....should be able to be broken easier and it's cheap because there's NOTHING you can do about it once you get grabbed and comboed with it. THAT'S why it should be changed NOT taken out. And people need to stop comparing it to Kung Lao's spin because it's nothing like it. His spin is HIGHLY punishable and can be BLOCKED. I just can't stand how a decent cyrax can use ONE meter and have a garunteed 50% AT LEAST.

Is this just a troll post? I mean, you've still missed the point that badly?

Let me make it very clear for you. First, THE COMMAND THROW CAN BE TECHED 100% OF THE TIME. Next, EVERY HIT IS BREAKABLE.

Nothing you can do my ass. Nothing is guaranteed. Again, would you say that as soon as Ermac hits you with B + FP, that it's guaranteed 47% damage and there's nothing you can do about it, and therefore it muyst be taken out or changed?

These types of arguments necessarily bring with it the implication that you think every combo in the game should be changed or removed.

I'll let you figure out why that's absolutely true, because I'm sick of explaining it in a way that cannot possibly be misunderstood, only to have the explanations ignored.

The only difference between starting a combo with a hit or a command thow is just that. Cyrax is the only character whos combo starts with a throw. That doesn't make it imbalanced.... it makes it unique, especially considering pretty much every throw in the game is a 50/50 tech except this one, which is 100%..

Plain and simple. If you don't tech the throw, you deserve to have to use a breaker to stop the combo. Compared to every single other combo - If you don't block the first hit, you need to use a breaker to stop the combo.

What the fXck is the difference? "omg as soon as Kitana hits me with F + BP there's nothing I can do and it's automatic 43% damage at least! Take out Kitana's F + BP!"

Sound ridiculous? Well, this is exactly what you complainers have done to Cyrax. It doesn't even make any sense at all.

 

[Leonkiller]

Is this just a troll post? I mean, you've still missed the point that badly?

Let me make it very clear for you. First, THE COMMAND THROW CAN BE TECHED 100% OF THE TIME. Next, EVERY HIT IS BREAKABLE.

Nothing you can do my ass. Nothing is guaranteed. Again, would you say that as soon as Ermac hits you with B + FP, that it's guaranteed 47% damage and there's nothing you can do about it, and therefore it muyst be taken out or changed?

These types of arguments necessarily bring with it the implication that you think every combo in the game should be changed or removed.

I'll let you figure out why that's absolutely true, because I'm sick of explaining it in a way that cannot possibly be misunderstood, only to have the explanations ignored.

The only difference between starting a combo with a hit or a command thow is just that. Cyrax is the only character whos combo starts with a throw. That doesn't make it imbalanced.... it makes it unique, especially considering pretty much every throw in the game is a 50/50 tech except this one, which is 100%..

Plain and simple. If you don't tech the throw, you deserve to have to use a breaker to stop the combo. Compared to every single other combo - If you don't block the first hit, you need to use a breaker to stop the combo.

What the fXck is the difference? "omg as soon as Kitana hits me with F + BP there's nothing I can do and it's automatic 43% damage at least! Take out Kitana's F + BP!"

Sound ridiculous? Well, this is exactly what you complainers have done to Cyrax. It doesn't even make any sense at all.

Agreeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Eazail]

Cyrax is still very good with out his bomb trap glitch guys. No he's not s tier but he is very capable. And don't forget he can still do over freaking 50% with 1 meter! Ermac can't. Even do that to my knowledge.

 

[Sultani]

Cyrax is still very good with out his bomb trap glitch guys. No he's not s tier but he is very capable. And don't forget he can still do over freaking 50% with 1 meter! Ermac can't. Even do that to my knowledge.

Yea, the single meter combo will likely become people's BnB now, and it's still really good. I'm not trying to say that He's not still good, only that it very clearly doesn't even make sense to remove the standard bomb trap based on the arguments against it. The conclusions drawn by the opposition and the fixes put in by NRS do NOT follow from what the issue actually is, which is simply the tech frames of the throw and nothing else.

I'm not familiar with the amount of damage ermac can do with the use of one meter bar, but I do know that he can do 47% without even using one.

Here are some specific examples to make my point more clear than it already is.

Ermac: jump punch, b + fp, Fp, BK, lift, jumpkick, teleport, dash, fp, bp, fp, tk push. mid 40% if you don't block the jump punch of b + fp.

Kitana: jump punch, f + BP, fp, NJP, BK, fan, dash 2 (or 4), lift, air fan, dash, fan, uppercut. mid 40% if you don't block the jump punch or f + bp.

I could give combo examples of every single character in the game, but two should be enough.

Now Cyrax, net or CG, bp, fp, bp, mid bomb, dash, bp, bp, njp, b + bp, dash, fk, fk, net, fk, fk ragdoll. 50%ish damage if you don't block the net or tech the CG.

The issue for me isn't really that he's not good anymore, just that the reasons for the changes are absolutely terrible. In these examples, you are punished from not reacting correctly. Cyrax is absolutely no different.

With all of the combos that start with hits, merely blocking the first hit doesn't even stop your opponent from continuing their string. Teching cyrax from the beginning cancels every single possibility of continuing the combo because teching a throw knocks both players backwards.

The problem with games that can have post launch mechanic patches is that the developers can be influenced by people who have no clue what they're talking about. this is a pretty good example of that.

 

[MKF30]

So it's gone huh? The update yesterday was saying his grab was easier to tech and bomb trap removed, but Cyrax still looks like he's a beast.

 

[Sporko]

Cyrax is....I don't even know how to describe him. Special?

He still has an immense damage, one bar combo...and, for one bar, it does more damage than most peoples one bar combos.

Cyrax also has the best projectile in the game, IMO. Net is better than everything. Sub zero ice ball, kano knives, whatever.

But, as a tradeoff, he has no mixup game. At all. And no mixup game means that as long as the opponent standing blocks everything, he never has to worry about Cyrax unless Cyrax can punish that character. And if Cyrax can punish that character, just stop doing punishable moves. If you have even one mixup that isn't punishable, you're pretty much better than Cyrax at the moment. That's how I feel, at least.

A lot of people accuse me of being pessemistic, but then I play against them online and get hit by low mixups, and overhead mixups, and they just....block everything I do. It's starting to wear on me.

I think the thing that bothers me the most is that, pre patch, the best character in the game was Nightwolf. And then the patch comes, and they nerf every character in the top 6 except for Nightwolf and Cage.....and then they BUFF Nightwolf....the character that was already #1, IMO.

 

[zaf]

Cyrax is....I don't even know how to describe him. Special?

He still has an immense damage, one bar combo...and, for one bar, it does more damage than most peoples one bar combos.

Cyrax also has the best projectile in the game, IMO. Net is better than everything. Sub zero ice ball, kano knives, whatever.

But, as a tradeoff, he has no mixup game. At all. And no mixup game means that as long as the opponent standing blocks everything, he never has to worry about Cyrax unless Cyrax can punish that character. And if Cyrax can punish that character, just stop doing punishable moves. If you have even one mixup that isn't punishable, you're pretty much better than Cyrax at the moment. That's how I feel, at least.

A lot of people accuse me of being pessemistic, but then I play against them online and get hit by low mixups, and overhead mixups, and they just....block everything I do. It's starting to wear on me.

I think the thing that bothers me the most is that, pre patch, the best character in the game was Nightwolf. And then the patch comes, and they nerf every character in the top 6 except for Nightwolf and Cage.....and then they BUFF Nightwolf....the character that was already #1, IMO.

This is where you are wrong, because as long as someone is blocking you still have the option of throwing and command throwing. Which essentially gives you a mix up. Granted it can be teched, but it is something other then a string.

I do understand what you are trying to say. Cyrax does not have a mixup game like other characters who are going to hit you either high/low all day. ( Liu kang comes to mind ). But what he does have is other mix ups you can utilize. two different grabs and strings. If you keep your opponent thinking that you are going to grab them, they will try to tech and thats a free string for you. No one wants to eat a cyrax string....

as far as the command throw itself, its still a reset so something can come of this right? I mean should we still be seeing cyrax players use this now that the trap is gone?

 

[Sultani]

Well, can anyone even confirm if the patch / update has been applied to xbox yet? Last night I was doing the command grab online just fine. The damage was still resetting, bomb was coming out, and the adv post CG was exactly the same as it was before.

If it has been applied, I look forward to the patch notes. Maybe all they did was change the tech frames... It felt just like it did before. :/

Also, I could be misunderstanding, but it sounds like you're saying he's wrong about the viability of Cyrax's mixup game by saying you can either command throw or regular throw? This is not true (if it's what you're saying). The command throw is 100% techable. The regular throw is a 50/50 tech. Whichever way you guess for the 50/50 tech, you'll still tech the command throw every single time. So, if you try to tech a regular throw as a 50/50, which will consequently result in 100% tech of the command throw, thus eliminating the consideration needing to be given to the command throw at all, you're essentially calling a 50/50 tech a mixup game for Cyrax. The same mechanic that applies to regular throws of every character in the game is not a character specific mixup game.

Example: Say you're playing against Cyrax. You're blocking and he comes to throw you. You go for a 50/50 and he command grabs - Command grab teched. You're blocking and he tries to throw you, you go for a 50/50 and it's a regular throw this time. This is a regular 50/50 just like any other throw, not a Cyrax mixup. You can ignore the command grab entirely in a throw situation and treat the throw as any other regular 50/50 regardless of it's a command grab or not, because the command throw tech is 100% covered no matter which way you guess.

which brings us to either getting hit by a string or getting thrown. Um, Every character can do that. You'd have to take throws completely away from some characters to be able to call something like this a mixup game.

imo, the 3, 3 net string or 3, 3, ragdoll should at least start with a low hit if it doesn't already.

TL;DR - Having two different throws isn't a mixup game because defending against them (regardless of which one is used), is exactly the same as defending any other throw in the game except for the fact that treating a throw situation like a 50/50 covered the CG 100%, leaving it just like any other 50/50

 

[QuadDamage]

imo, the 3, 3 net string or 3, 3, ragdoll should at least start with a low hit if it doesn't already.

Agreed.
At first i thought it would be OP but its not like you cant see his overheads from a mile away. Maybe make it a bit slower but cyrax needs a low combo starter now that the commandgrab is essentially useless.

 

[GodsLonelyman]

I agree with Sultani. That 3,3 string should hit low to give Cyrax some closeup options. From up close, Cyrax has no mix-up game now that the bomb "trap" is gone. Opponents no longer respect Cyrax from up close. When I use him I make sure to keep far from my opponent or mid range. When they get near me, I'm history. He still has some amazing combos but setting up your opponents is a chore, unless you get lucky and catch them in a net.

 

[Sporko]

Bah. I'm about to do something I hate having to do, which is admitting I may have been dead wrong about something. Online lag and awkward guard drop animations (i.e. that it seems to take time for the block animation to stop even after you stop blocking) made me believe that command grab was techable while blocking. It looked like blocking players were teching command throw on a regular basis. Were that the case, all the bitching I've done about command throw over the past couple weeks would be justified, IMO.

However, I got in a ton of offline play last night and it would seem I was just, well, wrong. My friend could not tech the throw while blocking, and while 14+10 frames is extremely reactable, 14 frames is considerably less so.

I still think his lack of lows and the single button tech on the comand throw make it so that his mixup game is seriously lacking, but command throw still has uses offline.

So, yeah. Me=wrong.

 

[Sultani]

are you playing on ps3 or xbox?

 

[Altsa]

I play on EU psn and we dont have the patch. What are Cyrax´s options after landed command grab after patch?

 

[Sporko]

Sultani, playing on PS3.

And Altsa, as far as I know the only guaranteed setup after command grab post patch is that you can do a jump in punch. They can block the jump in punch but that gives you another command throw mixup, and if they don't block you get full combo.

 

[zaf]

TL;DR - Having two different throws isn't a mixup game because defending against them (regardless of which one is used), is exactly the same as defending any other throw in the game except for the fact that treating a throw situation like a 50/50 covered the CG 100%, leaving it just like any other 50/50


oh i completely agree. I was more or less saying opponents need to guess whether you grab or attack.

Im not biased or anything towards any character. i merely want to play a "balanced game", but i do not think he needs a low.
i believe cyrax is more of a mid to far character.i think that with enough traps and set ups, you do not need to worry about lows, you will be able to get in enough damage. giving him a low would just be like making him more cookie cutter rather then have his own interesting play style.

 

[Sultani]

Having to guess whether a character is going to attack or throw can be said for every single character though.

That's not an interesting play style that's exclusive to certain characters (Cyrax); it's a fundamental game mechanic that's all inclusive to everyone.

 

[zaf]

once again i agree with that,

i must really suck at trying to explain what i feel/think

i feel that his bombs and net play allow him to have an interesting play style, not his string/grab mix up.
i also feel that with good enough net play and bomb play, you can win.
imo, i compate bombs to subs clones in a way. thats just my opionion, obviosuly there are not people who agree with that
and just like sub, although sub does have a low/overhead, cyrax is more of a zoner then anything o.o

 

[Sultani]

Yea.. Perhaps it was the intention that he was primarily a zoning character to begin with, the maybe the advantage post CG ws intended for that purpose, but right now there doesn't seem like there's any reason at all to ever give up the damage from 121 ragdoll or 21 ragdoll in lieu of a weak command grab where there's no good followup. The percentage of chance you have to follow something up from grabbing is way too low. Especially now when the command grab is like a 95% chance to do zero damage because anyone who knows about it will tech it no matter what.

 

[THTB]

Command grabs lead to safejumps. If you don't tech, you continuously eat them. When you do try to tech, you can be hit with 121 xx ragdoll, or hit with 21 xx net. He can even throw off tech attempts by jabbing or whatever.

 

[Sporko]

Im not biased or anything towards any character. i merely want to play a "balanced game", but i do not think he needs a low.
i believe cyrax is more of a mid to far character.i think that with enough traps and set ups, you do not need to worry about lows, you will be able to get in enough damage. giving him a low would just be like making him more cookie cutter rather then have his own interesting play style.

Maybe, but still, god what I wouldn't give for a non-launching, low starting string that did, say, 15-18%