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Match-up Discussion Chongo's Nightwing MU Chart

rev0lver

rev0lver

Come On Die Young
AK L0rdoftheFLY said:
You should at least explain your reasons. Start there
Click to expand...
I have like 50000 times

NW's ability to keep him out is limited. In staff stance I can counter his zoning just by getting in range of a jump+CC. In escrima he only really threatens with wingdings, and regardless gives me enough time to throw something out to give me trait. Then all I have to look for is wingdings, which I can punish, and when I get close to him his escrima footsie tools suck and he can't just outfootsie my trait with staff. His mediocre mobility and my character's interactable control helps me a lot too. All of NW's counters to Lex's tools have counters for me too, which is why I think it's even. You just have to outplay the other person.

EMPR_MURK said:
I could say the same about the nightwing players you play...but thats none of my business
Click to expand...
Whether or not they are is less relevant to me. It's not as hard to understand what the character can do. I would never make a MU number just based on my scores vs someone. But most players (top players included) don't have good understandings of what Lex can do. It sounds like a dickish thing to say but it's true when so many of them just play like "let me keep trying this one setup and j3 everywhere".
 
E

EMPR_MURK

Noob
rev0lver said:
I have like 50000 times

NW's ability to keep him out is limited. In staff stance I can counter his zoning just by getting in range of a jump+CC. In escrima he only really threatens with wingdings, and regardless gives me enough time to throw something out to give me trait. Then all I have to look for is wingdings, which I can punish, and when I get close to him his escrima footsie tools suck and he can't just outfootsie my trait with staff. His mediocre mobility and my character's interactable control helps me a lot too. All of NW's counters to Lex's tools have counters for me too, which is why I think it's even. You just have to outplay the other person.



Whether or not they are is less relevant to me. It's not as hard to understand what the character can do. I would never make a MU number just based on my scores vs someone. But most players (top players included) don't have good understandings of what Lex can do. It sounds like a dickish thing to say but it's true when so many of them just play like "let me keep trying this one setup and j3 everywhere".
Click to expand...
Wingdings are not the only tool against lex. Escrima ground spark is useful. Im not good at explaining how but escrima is the way to play lex and it really limits lex's options. I don't have to play footies in that mu. Its a solid 6-4 in Nws favor but its close
 
rev0lver

rev0lver

Come On Die Young
EMPR_MURK said:
Wingdings are not the only tool against lex. Escrima ground spark is useful. Im not good at explaining how but escrima is the way to play lex and it really limits lex's options. I don't have to play footies in that mu. Its a solid 6-4 in Nws favor but its close
Click to expand...
Lol what. I mean it's ok but it doesn't do anything big to me. That's like saying lance blast makes it a 5-5
 
Ra Helios

Ra Helios

Omnipotent God-like Selina Kyle Player
rev0lver said:
Lol what. I mean it's ok but it doesn't do anything big to me. That's like saying lance blast makes it a 5-5
Click to expand...
Lol. It depends how good the moves is. Like zatanna for example. Without that hypnotize move where it confuse your buttons the Mu will be 6/4 cat-woman favor. But I understand what you mean though revolver. Ya both have Xbox so why ya just do a 1v1. I can record it as well. :)
 
Ra Helios

Ra Helios

Omnipotent God-like Selina Kyle Player
RM Chongo said:
These numbers have been decided through playing multiple representitives offline and online and seeing how characters tools stack against Nightwing. There are a few numbers I'm not 100% confident in, and therefore not set in stone. Also I will edit in breakdowns of how the matchup goes against each character starting tomorrow probably. Enjoy!

Aquaman: 5-5 (personally I feel like its 6-4 aquaman but I'm probably wrong)

Ares: 5-5

Bane: 5-5

Batgirl: 5-5 (could be 6-4 Batgirl)

Batman: 5-5

Black Adam: 5-5

Catwoman: 6-4

Cyborg: 4-6

Deathstroke: 4-6

Doomsday: 5-5

Flash: 5-5

Green Arrow: 7-3

Green Lantern: 4-6

Harley: 4-6

Hawkgirl: 4-6

Joker: 5-5

Killer Frost: 4-6

Lex: 5-5

Lobo: 4-6

Martian Manhunter: 5-5

Raven: 5-5

Scorpion: 7-3 (I haven't played this mu in a year but lbsh it's probably horrible)

Shazam: 7-3

Sinestro: 3-7

Solomon Money: 6-4

Superman: 4-6

Wonder Woman: 3-7

Zatanna: 4-6

Zod: 4-6 (not sold on this being 3-7 yet. I wanna play pig in a long set.)

Winning: 4
Even: 11
Losing: 11


Final Opinion: Nightwings biggest asset is going even with many top tier/popular characters, and his worse matchups aren't popular tournament characters. However, at the highest level he needs a secondary to compete.

Discuss
Click to expand...
What catwoman player you played that makes it a 6-4 mu? Astronaut don't count. No offense to him of course
 
Chuckychuck

Chuckychuck

Noob
I have over 1500 sets with @hard_goodbye and this is where the MU has evolved for us.

FULL SCREEN
Full screen I have no real options, I can take a risk (which I do) and do a ground pound but that's really just testing your cat dash mb reflex. The goal at this range is to make you spend meter to get no combo but sometimes you will if you read it. You don't have to take this bait, just move in. The ground pound will make you want to jump but don't jump at around 3/4 distance because some can be spaced for my B3's to land or flying graysons to reset the situation. Just get to j2 distance.

NEUTRAL
Although low whip is good I do not recommend you using it a lot as I can full ground pound MB punish it into a really nasty fucking setup - arguably the worst setup vs CW in the entire game. It is useful however as it makes me look for it and then you can j2. Within the j2 distance the game plays like this. If I read a j2 from you I can counter with my j2 and it will almost always win but it kind of has to be done ahead of time. If you think this will happen you can b3 and it will always be my j2. If you are wrong you are in and at disadvantage.

SWEEP
Generally this distance is risky for NW and CW. CW cannot j2 as it whiffs and NW risks eating a random b3 if he tries to poke using his long range normals or sweep. I generally try to go back to neutral at this position unlike other MU's where this is a sweet spot. There's nothing CW has that can hit NW at this distance if NW is walking back going to neutral position.

CLOSE
Once you are in there's two ways this plays out. Either you try to poke spam me and loose since NW will never loose this d1 poke war or you take a chill pill and let me do my thing. The more you let me poke the greater the chances are that I will instead go for a mix up because there is a pay off by doing that. NW cannot really win just doing d1 since each one does less than half a percent in chip. This is equalized by you ending strings in cat claws anyways.

Making reads once you are in go like this. If you read 1f1 or 2 into staff pound you can just mb b3 right through and combo me. If I read you will start doing this I can staff spin mb to maintain my pressure or go back to d1 poking if I have no meter. Doing a non mb staff spin isn't in my best interest because I'm negative and you can play a reversal mind game with me. If I choose to respect your d1 since I'm negative you can skip your d1 and go right into your 50/50 instead.

Anything outside of this is just smoke and mirrors. Unfortunately, your only way to really get damage is to get in and make a read on when I will do a mix up otherwise I can just do d1 3x and you're out again - every single time.

FLYING GRAYSON
This is not useful in this MU as you can just d2 it for full combo and if NW uses it to get in and not AA he is negative anyway on landing. I prefer to just walk.

REGULAR KNOCKDOWN
As you already know NW can staff spin, dash, staff spin and CW cannot wake up outside of cat trait. He can meter burn the staff spin at will to be at advantage if it's blocked to avoid having to guess CW's 50/50.

THE SETUP
There's one setup NW has vs CW that is so fucking dirty you'd think NW was the best character in the game. At the ender of a d2~Staff spin combo (earlier parts modified depending on the launcher) NW can 50/50 AND stuff every single wake up CW has. The only thing to stop this is busting out the cat trait as it's invincible. For this reason I do not recommend using cat trait during combos. Credits to @Slips for sharing it with me.

EXPERIMENTAL SHIT
Due to the close game in this MU I was in the lab trying to find something for Catwoman. Although the results will vary on a human opponent as the timings aren't exactly to the frame vs the AI I came up with this. Catwoman J3 into d1~claws, throw, f3 mixup.


Input requested:

@GGA 16 Bit
@AK L0rdoftheFLY
@hard_goodbye
@EMPR_MURK
@Ecodus
@Sajam
@Ra Helios
 
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Ra Helios

Ra Helios

Omnipotent God-like Selina Kyle Player
Chuckychuck said:
I have over 1500 sets with @hard_goodbye and this is where the MU has evolved for us.

FULL SCREEN
Full screen I have no real options, I can take a risk (which I do) and do a ground pound but that's really just testing your cat dash mb reflex. The goal at this range is to make you spend meter to get no combo but sometimes you will if you read it. You don't have to take this bait, just move in. The ground pound will make you want to jump but don't jump at around 3/4 distance because some can be spaced for my B3's to land or flying graysons to reset the situation. Just get to j2 distance.

NEUTRAL
Although low whip is good I do not recommend you using it a lot as I can full ground pound MB punish it into a really nasty fucking setup - arguably the worst setup vs CW in the entire game. It is useful however as it makes me look for it and then you can j2. Within the j2 distance the game plays like this. If I read a j2 from you I can counter with my j2 and it will almost always win but it kind of has to be done ahead of time. If you think this will happen you can b3 and it will always be my j2. If you are wrong you are in and at disadvantage.

SWEEP
Generally this distance is risky for NW and CW. CW cannot j2 as it whiffs and NW risks eating a random b3 if he tries to poke using his long range normals or sweep. I generally try to go back to neutral at this position unlike other MU's where this is a sweet spot. There's nothing CW has that can hit NW at this distance if NW is walking back going to neutral position.

CLOSE
Once you are in there's two ways this plays out. Either you try to poke spam me and loose since NW will never loose this d1 poke war or you take a chill pill and let me do my thing. The more you let me poke the greater the chances are that I will instead go for a mix up because there is a pay off by doing that. NW cannot really win just doing d1 since each one does less than half a percent in chip. This is equalized by you ending strings in cat claws anyways.

Making reads once you are in go like this. If you read 1f1 or 2 into staff pound you can just mb b3 right through and combo me. If I read you will start doing this I can staff spin mb to maintain my pressure or go back to d1 poking if I have no meter. Doing a non mb staff spin isn't in my best interest because I'm negative and you can play a reversal mind game with me. If I choose to respect your d1 since I'm negative you can skip your d1 and go right into your 50/50 instead.

Anything outside of this is just smoke and mirrors. Unfortunately, your only way to really get damage is to get in and make a read on when I will do a mix up otherwise I can just do d1 3x and you're out again - every single time.

FLYING GRAYSON
This is not useful in this MU as you can just d2 it for full combo and if NW uses it to get in and not AA he is negative anyway on landing. I prefer to just walk.

REGULAR KNOCKDOWN
As you already know NW can staff spin, dash, staff spin and CW cannot wake up outside of cat trait. He can meter burn the staff spin at will to be at advantage if it's blocked to avoid having to guess CW's 50/50.

THE SETUP
There's one setup NW has vs CW that is so fucking dirty you'd think NW was the best character in the game. At the ender of a d2~Staff spin combo (earlier parts modified depending on the launcher) NW can 50/50 AND stuff every single wake up CW has. The only thing to stop this is busting out the cat trait as it's invincible. For this reason I do not recommend using cat trait during combos. Credits to @Slips for sharing it with me.

EXPERIMENTAL SHIT
Due to the close game in this MU I was in the lab trying to find something for Catwoman. Although the results will vary on a human opponent as the timings aren't exactly to the frame vs the AI I came up with this. Catwoman J3 into d1~claws, throw, f3 mixup.


Input requested:

@GGA 16 Bit
@AK L0rdoftheFLY
@hard_goodbye
@EMPR_MURK
@Ecodus
@Sajam
@Ra Helios
Click to expand...
I'll read this on my lunch break. Thanks for the tag.
 
AK L0rdoftheFLY

AK L0rdoftheFLY

I hatelove this game
Its a good breakdown of the MU but I will add one thing.

When your going from sweep to neutral is when your going to get yourself locked down. When you are walking back thats when catwoman has the ability to jump 2 forcing you guess the 50/50.

What I would do is from sweep I would try to get in her face before she gets in mine. This way I can staff spin or GP without worrying about j2.

Also my air to air of choice is j1. J1 can be used on reaction and has faster startup than j2. It also has a better hitbox for hitting grounded opponents (i.e. sometimes you can catch a b3 with it)

I also use Flying grayson to go over their head. (EXAMPLE: 1f1 FG)
 
AK L0rdoftheFLY

AK L0rdoftheFLY

I hatelove this game
Where 16bit beat me at Final round is in 2 places:

1) beat every one of my wakeups
2) Did not let me get into Staff soon enough.

If catwoman knocks you down in escrima you might as well call it a day. Sajam had the same experience at evo.
 
Ra Helios

Ra Helios

Omnipotent God-like Selina Kyle Player
Chuckychuck said:
I have over 1500 sets with @hard_goodbye and this is where the MU has evolved for us.

FULL SCREEN
Full screen I have no real options, I can take a risk (which I do) and do a ground pound but that's really just testing your cat dash mb reflex. The goal at this range is to make you spend meter to get no combo but sometimes you will if you read it. You don't have to take this bait, just move in. The ground pound will make you want to jump but don't jump at around 3/4 distance because some can be spaced for my B3's to land or flying graysons to reset the situation. Just get to j2 distance.

NEUTRAL
Although low whip is good I do not recommend you using it a lot as I can full ground pound MB punish it into a really nasty fucking setup - arguably the worst setup vs CW in the entire game. It is useful however as it makes me look for it and then you can j2. Within the j2 distance the game plays like this. If I read a j2 from you I can counter with my j2 and it will almost always win but it kind of has to be done ahead of time. If you think this will happen you can b3 and it will always be my j2. If you are wrong you are in and at disadvantage.

SWEEP
Generally this distance is risky for NW and CW. CW cannot j2 as it whiffs and NW risks eating a random b3 if he tries to poke using his long range normals or sweep. I generally try to go back to neutral at this position unlike other MU's where this is a sweet spot. There's nothing CW has that can hit NW at this distance if NW is walking back going to neutral position.

CLOSE
Once you are in there's two ways this plays out. Either you try to poke spam me and loose since NW will never loose this d1 poke war or you take a chill pill and let me do my thing. The more you let me poke the greater the chances are that I will instead go for a mix up because there is a pay off by doing that. NW cannot really win just doing d1 since each one does less than half a percent in chip. This is equalized by you ending strings in cat claws anyways.

Making reads once you are in go like this. If you read 1f1 or 2 into staff pound you can just mb b3 right through and combo me. If I read you will start doing this I can staff spin mb to maintain my pressure or go back to d1 poking if I have no meter. Doing a non mb staff spin isn't in my best interest because I'm negative and you can play a reversal mind game with me. If I choose to respect your d1 since I'm negative you can skip your d1 and go right into your 50/50 instead.

Anything outside of this is just smoke and mirrors. Unfortunately, your only way to really get damage is to get in and make a read on when I will do a mix up otherwise I can just do d1 3x and you're out again - every single time.

FLYING GRAYSON
This is not useful in this MU as you can just d2 it for full combo and if NW uses it to get in and not AA he is negative anyway on landing. I prefer to just walk.

REGULAR KNOCKDOWN
As you already know NW can staff spin, dash, staff spin and CW cannot wake up outside of cat trait. He can meter burn the staff spin at will to be at advantage if it's blocked to avoid having to guess CW's 50/50.

THE SETUP
There's one setup NW has vs CW that is so fucking dirty you'd think NW was the best character in the game. At the ender of a d2~Staff spin combo (earlier parts modified depending on the launcher) NW can 50/50 AND stuff every single wake up CW has. The only thing to stop this is busting out the cat trait as it's invincible. For this reason I do not recommend using cat trait during combos. Credits to @Slips for sharing it with me.

EXPERIMENTAL SHIT
Due to the close game in this MU I was in the lab trying to find something for Catwoman. Although the results will vary on a human opponent as the timings aren't exactly to the frame vs the AI I came up with this. Catwoman J3 into d1~claws, throw, f3 mixup.


Input requested:

@GGA 16 Bit
@AK L0rdoftheFLY
@hard_goodbye
@EMPR_MURK
@Ecodus
@Sajam
@Ra Helios
Click to expand...
What do you think the Mu is? I'm going to respond to your post right now
 
Last edited:
AK L0rdoftheFLY

AK L0rdoftheFLY

I hatelove this game
HeroesNZ said:
Yeah that was my bet too but it's not a 50/50. I was thinking it could be some sort of ambiguous crossup or something
Click to expand...
no...every thing you think is "new" tech with NW is actually something you already know applied well.

it is a 50/50 though. Its very hard to react to.
 
Ra Helios

Ra Helios

Omnipotent God-like Selina Kyle Player
Chuckychuck said:
I have over 1500 sets with @hard_goodbye and this is where the MU has evolved for us.

FULL SCREEN
Full screen I have no real options, I can take a risk (which I do) and do a ground pound but that's really just testing your cat dash mb reflex. The goal at this range is to make you spend meter to get no combo but sometimes you will if you read it. You don't have to take this bait, just move in. The ground pound will make you want to jump but don't jump at around 3/4 distance because some can be spaced for my B3's to land or flying graysons to reset the situation. Just get to j2 distance.

NEUTRAL
Although low whip is good I do not recommend you using it a lot as I can full ground pound MB punish it into a really nasty fucking setup - arguably the worst setup vs CW in the entire game. It is useful however as it makes me look for it and then you can j2. Within the j2 distance the game plays like this. If I read a j2 from you I can counter with my j2 and it will almost always win but it kind of has to be done ahead of time. If you think this will happen you can b3 and it will always be my j2. If you are wrong you are in and at disadvantage.

SWEEP
Generally this distance is risky for NW and CW. CW cannot j2 as it whiffs and NW risks eating a random b3 if he tries to poke using his long range normals or sweep. I generally try to go back to neutral at this position unlike other MU's where this is a sweet spot. There's nothing CW has that can hit NW at this distance if NW is walking back going to neutral position.

CLOSE
Once you are in there's two ways this plays out. Either you try to poke spam me and loose since NW will never loose this d1 poke war or you take a chill pill and let me do my thing. The more you let me poke the greater the chances are that I will instead go for a mix up because there is a pay off by doing that. NW cannot really win just doing d1 since each one does less than half a percent in chip. This is equalized by you ending strings in cat claws anyways.

Making reads once you are in go like this. If you read 1f1 or 2 into staff pound you can just mb b3 right through and combo me. If I read you will start doing this I can staff spin mb to maintain my pressure or go back to d1 poking if I have no meter. Doing a non mb staff spin isn't in my best interest because I'm negative and you can play a reversal mind game with me. If I choose to respect your d1 since I'm negative you can skip your d1 and go right into your 50/50 instead.

Anything outside of this is just smoke and mirrors. Unfortunately, your only way to really get damage is to get in and make a read on when I will do a mix up otherwise I can just do d1 3x and you're out again - every single time.

FLYING GRAYSON
This is not useful in this MU as you can just d2 it for full combo and if NW uses it to get in and not AA he is negative anyway on landing. I prefer to just walk.

REGULAR KNOCKDOWN
As you already know NW can staff spin, dash, staff spin and CW cannot wake up outside of cat trait. He can meter burn the staff spin at will to be at advantage if it's blocked to avoid having to guess CW's 50/50.

THE SETUP
There's one setup NW has vs CW that is so fucking dirty you'd think NW was the best character in the game. At the ender of a d2~Staff spin combo (earlier parts modified depending on the launcher) NW can 50/50 AND stuff every single wake up CW has. The only thing to stop this is busting out the cat trait as it's invincible. For this reason I do not recommend using cat trait during combos. Credits to @Slips for sharing it with me.

EXPERIMENTAL SHIT
Due to the close game in this MU I was in the lab trying to find something for Catwoman. Although the results will vary on a human opponent as the timings aren't exactly to the frame vs the AI I came up with this. Catwoman J3 into d1~claws, throw, f3 mixup.


Input requested:

@GGA 16 Bit
@AK L0rdoftheFLY
@hard_goodbye
@EMPR_MURK
@Ecodus
@Sajam
@Ra Helios
Click to expand...


FULL SCREEN
Full screen I have no real options, I can take a risk (which I do) and do a ground pound but that's really just testing your cat dash mb reflex. The goal at this range is to make you spend meter to get no combo but sometimes you will if you read it. You don't have to take this bait, just move in. The ground pound will make you want to jump but don't jump at around 3/4 distance because some can be spaced for my B3's to land or flying graysons to reset the situation. Just get to j2 distance.


I agree with this. Plus if I do a Full screen mb Cat-dash it will be safe but I will be pressured by NightWing staff


NEUTRAL
Although low whip is good I do not recommend you using it a lot as I can full ground pound MB punish it into a really nasty fucking setup - arguably the worst setup vs CW in the entire game. It is useful however as it makes me look for it and then you can j2. Within the j2 distance the game plays like this. If I read a j2 from you I can counter with my j2 and it will almost always win but it kind of has to be done ahead of time. If you think this will happen you can b3 and it will always be my j2. If you are wrong you are in and at disadvantage.

I agree. Low whip can be read and I rarely do it because it can be punish.

I also agree with her jump2. If you react to it while she is in the air, you can beat it all the time consistently with NW staff j2.

B3 her jump2 I disagree unless you mb it. Emperor tries to do that and he got punish for it. The Grayson and the staff j2 is a better choice.

THE SETUP
There's one setup NW has vs CW that is so fucking dirty you'd think NW was the best character in the game. At the ender of a d2~Staff spin combo (earlier parts modified depending on the launcher) NW can 50/50 AND stuff every single wake up CW has. The only thing to stop this is busting out the cat trait as it's invincible. For this reason I do not recommend using cat trait during combos. Credits to @Slips for sharing it with me.

I agree. That is her only option. But not recommend using cat trait during combs is where Catwoman really shines in damage and set ups. Plus she builds it up easily for just doing normals. I recommend Catwoman players to use it. Also if you don't have it while he is doing a staff spin, just block the moves. Not really hard.

REGULAR KNOCKDOWN
As you already know NW can staff spin, dash, staff spin and CW cannot wake up outside of cat trait. He can meter burn the staff spin at will to be at advantage if it's blocked to avoid having to guess CW's 50/50.

I agree


SWEEP
Generally this distance is risky for NW and CW. CW cannot j2 as it whiffs and NW risks eating a random b3 if he tries to poke using his long range normals or sweep. I generally try to go back to neutral at this position unlike other MU's where this is a sweet spot. There's nothing CW has that can hit NW at this distance if NW is walking back going to neutral position.


I agree. NightWing best option is to walking back going to the neutral position.


CLOSE
Once you are in there's two ways this plays out. Either you try to poke spam me and loose since NW will never loose this d1 poke war or you take a chill pill and let me do my thing. The more you let me poke the greater the chances are that I will instead go for a mix up because there is a pay off by doing that. NW cannot really win just doing d1 since each one does less than half a percent in chip. This is equalized by you ending strings in cat claws anyways.

I agree. The best thing NightWing can do close up is d1. Best option.
 
HeroesNZ

HeroesNZ

Baconlord's Billionaire Sugar Daddy
AK L0rdoftheFLY said:
no...every thing you think is "new" tech with NW is actually something you already know applied well.

it is a 50/50 though. Its very hard to react to.
Click to expand...
Something being hard to react to doesn't make it a 50/50. It's as much of a 50/50 as Grundy's B1/F1 is.
 
Chuckychuck

Chuckychuck

Noob
Ra Helios said:
FULL SCREEN
Full screen I have no real options, I can take a risk (which I do) and do a ground pound but that's really just testing your cat dash mb reflex. The goal at this range is to make you spend meter to get no combo but sometimes you will if you read it. You don't have to take this bait, just move in. The ground pound will make you want to jump but don't jump at around 3/4 distance because some can be spaced for my B3's to land or flying graysons to reset the situation. Just get to j2 distance.


I agree with this. Plus if I do a Full screen mb Cat-dash it will be safe but I will be pressured by NightWing staff


NEUTRAL
Although low whip is good I do not recommend you using it a lot as I can full ground pound MB punish it into a really nasty fucking setup - arguably the worst setup vs CW in the entire game. It is useful however as it makes me look for it and then you can j2. Within the j2 distance the game plays like this. If I read a j2 from you I can counter with my j2 and it will almost always win but it kind of has to be done ahead of time. If you think this will happen you can b3 and it will always be my j2. If you are wrong you are in and at disadvantage.

I agree. Low whip can be read and I rarely do it because it can be punish.

I also agree with her jump2. If you react to it while she is in the air, you can beat it all the time consistently with NW staff j2.

B3 her jump2 I disagree unless you mb it. Emperor tries to do that and he got punish for it. The Grayson and the staff j2 is a better choice.

THE SETUP
There's one setup NW has vs CW that is so fucking dirty you'd think NW was the best character in the game. At the ender of a d2~Staff spin combo (earlier parts modified depending on the launcher) NW can 50/50 AND stuff every single wake up CW has. The only thing to stop this is busting out the cat trait as it's invincible. For this reason I do not recommend using cat trait during combos. Credits to @Slips for sharing it with me.

I agree. That is her only option. But not recommend using cat trait during combs is where Catwoman really shines in damage and set ups. Plus she builds it up easily for just doing normals. I recommend Catwoman players to use it. Also if you don't have it while he is doing a staff spin, just block the moves. Not really hard.

REGULAR KNOCKDOWN
As you already know NW can staff spin, dash, staff spin and CW cannot wake up outside of cat trait. He can meter burn the staff spin at will to be at advantage if it's blocked to avoid having to guess CW's 50/50.

I agree


SWEEP
Generally this distance is risky for NW and CW. CW cannot j2 as it whiffs and NW risks eating a random b3 if he tries to poke using his long range normals or sweep. I generally try to go back to neutral at this position unlike other MU's where this is a sweet spot. There's nothing CW has that can hit NW at this distance if NW is walking back going to neutral position.


I agree. NightWing best option is to walking back going to the neutral position.


CLOSE
Once you are in there's two ways this plays out. Either you try to poke spam me and loose since NW will never loose this d1 poke war or you take a chill pill and let me do my thing. The more you let me poke the greater the chances are that I will instead go for a mix up because there is a pay off by doing that. NW cannot really win just doing d1 since each one does less than half a percent in chip. This is equalized by you ending strings in cat claws anyways.

I agree. The best thing NightWing can do close up is d1. Best option.
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Clarifications:

NEUTRAL
The B3 is done by Catwoman to beat NW's J2 not the other way around. CW B3 > NW J2 > CW J2 and then NW D1 spam > CW B3. Assuming NW does not attempt a mixup after CW's B3.

HeroesNZ said:
Something being hard to react to doesn't make it a 50/50. It's as much of a 50/50 as Grundy's B1/F1 is.
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I called it a 50/50 when it is a 22f low 26f overhead mixup. I'm not going to get into semantics so let's not derail this. The setup is d2~staff spin into 2 dashes. Yes two, then you do the 50/50 or staff spin mb to continue pressure.
 
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@MylesWright_

@MylesWright_

I'll be back 3ing
Killer Frost only wins because you're playing overly aggressive and walking into parries. The character has no footsies and by playing even remotely patiently you'll find people opening themselves up with desperate parry reads or going for a slow f3 or b1 in a range that NW clearly dominates
 
FOREVER EL1TE

FOREVER EL1TE

Noob
Chuckychuck said:
Clarifications:

NEUTRAL
The B3 is done by Catwoman to beat NW's J2 not the other way around. CW B3 > NW J2 > CW J2 and then NW D1 spam > CW B3. Assuming NW does not attempt a mixup after CW's B3.



I called it a 50/50 when it is a 22f low 26f overhead mixup. I'm not going to get into semantics so let's not derail this. The setup is d2~staff spin into 2 dashes. Yes two, then you do the 50/50 or staff spin mb to continue pressure.
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Nw J2 and J1 in staff beats her b3. I may be unsure
 
Chuckychuck

Chuckychuck

Noob
AK L0rdoftheFLY said:
Its a good breakdown of the MU but I will add one thing.

When your going from sweep to neutral is when your going to get yourself locked down. When you are walking back thats when catwoman has the ability to jump 2 forcing you guess the 50/50.

What I would do is from sweep I would try to get in her face before she gets in mine. This way I can staff spin or GP without worrying about j2.

Also my air to air of choice is j1. J1 can be used on reaction and has faster startup than j2. It also has a better hitbox for hitting grounded opponents (i.e. sometimes you can catch a b3 with it)

I also use Flying grayson to go over their head. (EXAMPLE: 1f1 FG)
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When you are walking back from sweep to neutral is where both players will be making the read. CW B3 > NW J2 > CW J2. If no read is made then CW will be at J2 with no 50/50 just J2~F1 or J2, J1 which NW then pokes her out and then we have a ground hog day unless NW decides to open up the close game of reads and go for a mixup where CW will either block or attack.
 
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