Strategy Charge Cancelling Discussion (now with poll)

[Doombawkz]

This is the discussion for the idea of charge cancelling and if the community as a whole thinks we really need it. I invite anyone who plays Bane and knows the character mechanics to please present their case for either side, and please don't bring Bane discussion to other forums where it isn't needed (sounds weird coming from me, but that's how you know its serious).

We don't know if we are getting the charge cancel in the next patch or not, however now is a great time to look into the concept to decide as a whole what kind of consequence or benefit it would truly bring to our character, and how it should be approached.
its_ezie
big_aug
PND_Mustard
PND_Ketchup
BiPolarExxpress
Grr
AK Black Preon
-Deadman-
LEGI0N47
Nori Batousai
Maxintensity25
OutlawNightmare
chief713
shaowebb
Error
Dog With A Beer
EGP Wonder_Chef

 

[Astrocytic]

I'm an Ares player but I support this (As long as you may only cancel during the start up frames).

I'm hopeful he will receive a charge cancel in the upcoming patch.

 

[Zoidberg747]

Bad idea

 

[Doombawkz]

I'm not asking if you think its good or bad, but why you think its good or bad.
Tell me why you don't believe he needs it, or why he does. What would it fix? What would it break?

 

[BiPolarExxpress]

To be honest, all we'll hear about is how we've supplanted f 23 lol. But in all seriousness it's pretty damn over the top. We really don't need as much help as everyone thinks.

 

[BiPolarExxpress]

Hate how it won't let me edit. But it would break it because the way I imagine a charge cancel is kinda like grundy's walking corpse. If we could read and use an actual armored attack at the beginning, or even a buffer we'd basically be humping on top of them the entire match.

 

[IIWade3II]

Inb4 bane turns into Kabal

 

[Doombawkz]

To edit, go to the "more options" button and it'll open up advanced editing. The regular edit window is being wonky for some reason.

 

[BiPolarExxpress]

Ahhh ok, very nice. Well I gotta ask your thoughts on this.

 

[AK Black Preon]

So some people were saying cancellable into other moves. 113 on block xx charge xx command grab. Which if you think about it... does that mean charge gets armor...then the armor gets reset on the command grab? Also 90% of the people who avoid it will either MB b3 or Jump it. If I can cancel it all on a whim I'll just punish you free no matter what your choice was. But if the window is tight to where it has to be pre-meditated as in instant the plethora of upclose mindgames just opens significantly.

Also on knockdown. Charge... into command throw. However if its like Grundy's cancellability I could still do that into a 2nd charge or maybe a command grab, or a double punch. Not to mention most other cancellable moves don't have the potential of by itself (or with MB) ever have the possibility of doing 20-30+% by itself. 113 charge cancel, d1 command throw. >_> Maybe its all theory fighting but folks like catwoman would get literally shit on every single time.

 

[Jeffreys]

You should only be allowed to cancel during the very beginning frames, similar to Grundy's WCC (Which means you would have to commit to the outcome for better or worse), or else it would be extremely OP against Zoners and other characters in general.

 

[Doombawkz]

Eh, I see Bane charge cancelling as either broken or useless.
Cancel into dashes = 223's 32+ frames of cancel advantage go towards us basically rummaging through their corpses for free by looping 223xxb.f.1.ff over and over again.
Cancel into attacks = Same thing, only without the dash so it would literally go 223xxb.f.1xx223 so on so forth.
Cancel into specials = No point when we can cancel dash into specials as is. Anything that beat it before would probably beat it then too.

 

[Tiger Wong]

Cancel into specials = No point when we can cancel dash into specials as is. Anything that beat it before would probably beat it then too.

Charge Cancel into DB2.
Everybody who knows Bane (and doesn't have a teleport) jumps Charge on reaction (laughs as we run under them) and punishes Bane from full/almost full screen while Bane is still running.

But if the window is tight to where it has to be pre-meditated as in instant the plethora of upclose mindgames just opens significantly.

This is what I've been suggesting. You let us cancel the charge into a special early so while we're running, the opponent can guess whether we're gonna DB2 (so the opponent can just block and punish) or command grab (jumping is ok and punish of course) or DP (if they duck, they're hit) or F2d (I h8 this stupid motion).

It's still read based which is what Bane's game is based upon. And unlike F2~dash armor, you don't have to go to lvl 3 venom just to get in to force another read.

 

[Doombawkz]

Charge Cancel into DB2.
Everybody who knows Bane (and doesn't have a teleport) jumps Charge on reaction (laughs as we run under them) and punishes Bane from full/almost full screen while Bane is still running.

Lets assume its a situation where you should be using charge (not full screen), and the opponent isn't able to simply knock you out of charge (which is what makes our MUs bad is multi-hitting opponents) then what point is there to charging and then cancelling when you can just dash once and cancel it into whatever you need? Why does the opponent need to bother jumping when they can just guard or Mb b.3?

If we can cancel charge whenever we want, then whats stopping us from cancelling charge into charge as they try to jump? What about cancelling that charge into another charge if they don't jump? What MU would cancelling charge help that would equal out the amount of MUs it would tip horrifically?

 

[Tiger Wong]

The only time people jump charge would be times where you are either full screen (and shouldn't be charging) or mid-screen and being read like a book.

I don't have to be reading ANY Bane to see that big ugly flex (with an accompanied grunt I might add) to jump/jump and air dash Charge on reaction. All I have to be doing is not committing to anything, know my character's movelist and ranges, and not falling asleep.

 

[Zoidberg747]

It just isnt needed. If you can cancel it at a whim a la NDC then that would be stupid as hell and this entire game would be bane vs. bane.

But even if you allowed to cancel it into specials it would still be broken. Every charge could be cancelled into DP and you are at neutral in their face. Or you can run up and command grab which is almost like a full screen command grab.

The thing that makes the charge so balanced is the fact that it is punishable. Otherwise Bane would destroy over half the cast.

PLUS, when you have one of the best forward dashes in the game and the ability to cancel it into specials, this seems like total overkill.

 

[Tiger Wong]

Lets assume its a situation where you should be using charge (not full screen), and the opponent isn't able to simply knock you out of charge (which is what makes our MUs bad is multi-hitting opponents) then what point is there to charging and then cancelling when you can just dash once and cancel it into whatever you need?

Because dashing doesn't have armor. Unless you wanna bring up that F2 Dash lvl 3 armor move.

Why does the opponent need to bother jumping when they can just guard or Mb b.3?

#1 They don't always have meter
#2 They might want to save meter.
#3 For some characters, it's a better punish because some MB B3s (HawkGirl for instance) sucks and the damage on those combos aren't all that hot for the meter you're burning.
#4 Once you start lvl 3 Charging on reads of MB B3, they decide "well screw this, I don't need to burn the meter anyway. I'll just time my jump properly.
#5 Why guard and take the block damage and practically be at neutral when you can easily jump it (and punish) on reaction?

If we can cancel charge whenever we want, then whats stopping us from cancelling charge into charge as they try to jump? What about cancelling that charge into another charge if they don't jump? What MU would cancelling charge help that would equal out the amount of MUs it would tip horrifically?

You can't cancel charge into another charge.
Problem solved.

And again, I don't want charge to cancel into anything. That would be crazy. Or being able to cancel it late. Again, too OP.

This would a fair, get-in tactic, that would STILL be read-based and have armor.

 

[Nonameformedude]

I mean the charge in my opinion is banes weakest option sans adding a gimmick to his play. It doesn't need to be changed to make bane easier for people to play, it just needs to be used less by bane players. The crossover after charge is a gimmick, and the charge in general is something that should only be used after a set up so its jumped and punished.

Now if the charge cancel must happen then I cant see being able to cancel into special moves. That would completely change the full screen meta game and shut down many of the opponents options by buffering and getting two hits of armor charging. Stutter charge cancels would look cool though. It would be a nice buff, but if it take priority over the buffs bane really needs then that would be upsetting.

 

[GodsLonelyman]

The only issue I have always had with the charge was the really slow startup and especially the slow recovery after it hits. We get it Bane you consume lots of protein, stop flexing so much.

 

[GGA Max]

I think in the grand scheme of things it won't help us win the match ups we lose. Specifically batman and kf . They don't care if we fake a run, they'll throw their double projectiles and we'll be screwed either way. Same as supes and Adam. And DS I guess too.

If he can do weird cancels on block that's meh for me. No body wants to block me anyways. Because if I know they're gunna block I'll just grab them lol. Anyway I know the meta will change, but for now I don't see it as a huge deal. Plus chip damage is garbo in this game anyway.

 

[GodsLonelyman]

I think in the grand scheme of things it won't help us win the match ups we lose. Specifically batman and kf . They don't care if we fake a run, they'll throw their double projectiles and we'll be screwed either way. Same as supes and Adam. And DS I guess too.

If he can do weird cancels on block that's meh for me. No body wants to block me anyways. Because if I know they're gunna block I'll just grab them lol. Anyway I know the meta will change, but for now I don't see it as a huge deal. Plus chip damage is garbo in this game anyway.

Pretty much, the characters with multi hitting projectiles, specials or weird projectiles that count as physical hits will still give him issues. About people not blocking, I get that alot too. I've has people gladly eat a few venomed double punches in a row. The damage on the DP sucks.

 

[Doombawkz]

Because dashing doesn't have armor. Unless you wanna bring up that F2 Dash lvl 3 armor move.



#1 They don't always have meter
#2 They might want to save meter.
#3 For some characters, it's a better punish because some MB B3s (HawkGirl for instance) sucks and the damage on those combos aren't all that hot for the meter you're burning.
#4 Once you start lvl 3 Charging on reads of MB B3, they decide "well screw this, I don't need to burn the meter anyway. I'll just time my jump properly.
#5 Why guard and take the block damage and practically be at neutral when you can easily jump it (and punish) on reaction?



You can't cancel charge into another charge.
Problem solved.

And again, I don't want charge to cancel into anything. That would be crazy. Or being able to cancel it late. Again, too OP.

This would a fair, get-in tactic, that would STILL be read-based and have armor.

But again, what range do you have where charge would be more useful than just a dash? It would have to be outside of d.1 range, and it would have to be outside of a single dash's worth of reach since we can cancel dash into b.f.2 for more or less armored dashing.

Everything outside of that are projectiles, in which case if you blindly dash into them then you deserve it but if you are sitting there waiting for the charge (by doing what you said and not commiting) then I can just dash up for free anyways.

#1 : This game gives out meter for free, there shouldn't be many times where they don't have the meter to do something.
#2 : Save meter isn't something you do against a guy who needs to get in, you should be spending it to keep pushing him out if you can't do it naturally.
#3 : No one's damage is "that hot" when you consider you are basically trading 34% for 18% damage to you.
#4 : What kind of Bane is just sitting there doing raw random charges that are readable and punishable from the ranges you are talking about?
#5 : Because not everybody can jump it in time


Don't cancel charge into anything? Then whats your point?

 

[GGA Max]

Pretty much, the characters with multi hitting projectiles, specials or weird projectiles that count as physical hits will still give him issues. About people not blocking, I get that alot too. I've has people gladly eat a few venomed double punches in a row. The damage on the DP sucks.

It sucks because its an armored 16 frame move lol. Meant for knockdowns and oki shenanigans my man. Oh, and meter less...

 

[shaowebb]

If we could charge cancel but it didn't grant armor somehow if you cancelled it, I could see it being like Shen Woo's charge-able punch. Folks fear it and often players will charge to check em and then cancel out of it for footsies. If its just a way to essentially go "I have the powah!" and get a few frames of armor and then cancel into whatever over and over it could be bad...especially if it could cancel into other armored moves and the armor frames somehow were consecutive to each other.

Im for it if its just a footsie sort of thing you can bait people with but i'm against it if its just a way to sneak armor frames into other stuff before the beginning of their startup.

 

[MagicMan357]

Hell no, please no