General/Other Buff Wish List

[DiZzyPhyZiks]

they need to fix the hitbox to her b2

This!!! I cant believe i forgot about that. Its like "uhh im floating, i dont have to block that amazing low".
One of harleys best moves nullified bcuz some people like having their feet in the i-just-had-my-first-kiss position.

So.. Lets actually make this "Buff Wish List" ..
Theres some really cool ideas being tossed around but imo the most important and practical stuff that we might could possibly actually get would be:
1. TRAIT (faster recovery and startup)
2. F2 overhead (faster startup)
3. PD hit mid

B2 needs to be, as deg222 stated, FIXED. This should not cut into our buffs.

Amongst all the things we could possibly wish for I believe these are the simple things that would make harley a true contender without making her a go-to for tier whores.

 

[Mood4food77]

for b2, fix the floaty characters hurtboxes, especially superman's

 

[Saint Connor]

Make lvl 1 Pop Pop and overhead.

Hear me out.

One of the biggest issues Harley has (besides her shit trait) is no one has a fear of ducking against her. We're all in pretty much full agreement that f2 is lackluster and basically only catches sleeping opponents and f1,3 is hard as shit to land without getting poked out of. What Harley needs is something that hits overhead midstring rather than first hit (not counting f1,3).

How this helps:

As mentioned, there is little to no fear of Harley's overheads in their current state. This allows Harley to follow up strings with an overhead to force opponents to respect her mixups.

"But OMG that's so OP! Harley would be broken!"

Not at all. A lot of the cast have midstring overheads, overhead/low special mixups, overhead to low strings, or even 50/50 mixups off of normals (Killer Frost anyone?). For Harley to make use of this, she would have to MB the Pop Pop. So add the fact that it would cost meter for a mixup and the fact that Pop Pop has a chance to fail (yes, even at lvl 1), that's already paying more than half the cast for the same results. Generally speaking, you can't do much with Pop Pop right now and it only combos off of heavy staggering hits like f1.

As of right now, most of Harley's meter usage is going toward MB b3 with the occasional MB Cupcakes or Play Doctor. This gives her added depth and makes meter management of more importance to her. Additionally, this makes lesser used strings more useful and gives her more mixup/block string options, but at the cost of meter. Added fear of the Pop Pop overhead also allows for f2 to open people up more.

Ideally, you'd be using things like:
1,1,2(blocked) xx MB Pop Pop/TS or b2,2
2B3(blocked) xx MB Pop Pop/TS
2U3(blocked) xx MP Pop Pop/TS

1,1,2 would have much greater mixup potential since it is + on block, but not so much + that it would lead to something like 1,1,2 xx MB Pop Pop "block infinite" since Pop Pop does have some slow start up (but not as bad as f2), allowing the opponent some room to react without putting Harley in a compromising position. Additionally, strings like 2B3 and 2U3 would be able to be made safe (at the cost of meter), but wouldn't be too OP as you would have to commit to your mixup should you choose to TS instead which followup options are punishable.

In essence, this gives Harley's Risk vs Cost vs Reward more reward for her efforts without making her over the top. (and making up for a shitty trait....).

 

[Mood4food77]

if you make TS~1 an overhead, it also buffs TS~2, which i have yet to see any harley use

but making pop pop an overhead would be nasty, something like

j2, b22 XX pop pop MB, TS~1, etc

is a lot of high-low blocking right off the bat

i don't know if this is a harley thing, but i think her jumping hurtbox might be really large for someone her size

 

[Saint Connor]

if you make TS~1 an overhead, it also buffs TS~2, which i have yet to see any harley use

but making pop pop an overhead would be nasty, something like

j2, b22 XX pop pop MB, TS~1, etc

is a lot of high-low blocking right off the bat

i don't know if this is a harley thing, but i think her jumping hurtbox might be really large for someone her size

If the first 2 of b2,2 is blocked, the second 2 doesn't come out. So effectively, the block string would end at b2. It's a non-factor.

 

[DiZzyPhyZiks]

That string is non existent if they block the first b2. B22 doesnt come out on block.

Pop pop overhead sounds fun but kinda just doesnt make sense. Would the smaller fast moving bullet be an overhead? Or meter burn skips charging to the bigger slower bullet?

 

[Saint Connor]

That string is non existent if they block the first b2. B22 doesnt come out on block.

Pop pop overhead sounds fun but kinda just doesnt make sense. Would the smaller fast moving bullet be an overhead? Or meter burn skips charging to the bigger slower bullet?

Pop Pop, as is, is already a mid. MBing it just cancels the recovery and instantly sets Harley to neutral. Pop Pop by itself has huge negative frames on block, so MB is a necessity, so it's not something that could be abused.

On hit, however, an MB Pop Pop would allow for full combo, hence why it would be a good mixup since you could TS for the low mixup combo.

MB Pop Pop also gives you a hit confirm, which Harley also lacks.

 

[DiZzyPhyZiks]

Sooo.. Would it still be chargeable? If so, what purpose would it serve? If its already an overhead you charge 3 seconds for nothing and 4 for unblockable?

This is all very interesting i just dont see it as being one of the things likely to come true in a patch

 

[Saint Connor]

Sooo.. Would it still be chargeable? If so, what purpose would it serve? If its already an overhead you charge 3 seconds for nothing and 4 for unblockable?

This is all very interesting i just dont see it as being one of the things likely to come true in a patch

I see what you are saying now. I guess charges would just be speed changes since the only use for them anyways is getting in (which hardly anyone seems to use in the first place) and of course the unblockable for fully charged.

I don't see it happening either, but it's my "Wish List" item that I think could take Harley from a low-mid character to a high tier character because it fills one of her glaring gaps.

 

[DiZzyPhyZiks]

This IS the wish list thread lol

That being said, they should buff her butt and thighs.. Somethin like what jessica biel has. Now thats top tier!

 

[xWEBSx]

This!!! I cant believe i forgot about that. Its like "uhh im floating, i dont have to block that amazing low".
One of harleys best moves nullified bcuz some people like having their feet in the i-just-had-my-first-kiss position.

So.. Lets actually make this "Buff Wish List" ..
Theres some really cool ideas being tossed around but imo the most important and practical stuff that we might could possibly actually get would be:
1. TRAIT (faster recovery and startup)
2. F2 overhead (faster startup)
3. PD hit mid

B2 needs to be, as deg222 stated, FIXED. This should not cut into our buffs.

Amongst all the things we could possibly wish for I believe these are the simple things that would make harley a true contender without making her a go-to for tier whores.

I am perfectly fine with all 3..

1) broken, useless- should have never made it to final game as is.

2) she needs something.. If she is a hybrid... Give her some tools to work with during Rushdown phase.. Quicker hitting F2, or an overhead mid combo. No F1,3 does not count since F1 actually hitting to get to F3 is just as unreliable as F2.

3) Command grabs are not duck able... Zangief and Shazam would roll over in their graves... Flat out pathetic to have a command grab duck able.

The only other addition I would give is the buff to TS follow ups.. (They did Batgirls cartwheel kick correct.. She can hit high, low or just a regular strike) there is no guessing involved with TS... You see TS, hold down- that is 1 move and 3 follow ups that are negated simply by holding down.. With ZERO repercussions and ZERO thinking involved. If TS 1 is an overhead, people have to pick right against TS1 vs TS2 or 3..and even if you do NOT want to make TS1 hit overhead... Is it too much to ask to have the TS follow ups MBable?

Harley has a weak balance.. But that does count as "balanced"... if you follow the tier system of S,A,B,C,D this puts her solidly in the high C tier.. Up to high B if played to her fullest.. Even if she received all the buffs above- it would place her solid B, mid A if played to fullest... Which is by no means S tier or OP.

 

[xWEBSx]

They need to buff her 123 string back to the way it was, the nerf to making it rollable and then NOT listing in the patch notes is a smack in the face.

I would like to hear more about this please.. If Deg or anyone could please elaborate?

 

[deg222]

I would like to hear more about this please.. If Deg or anyone could please elaborate?

Prior to 1.03, her 123 used to be an unrollable/untechable knockdown. This lead to an extremely ambiguous jump in setup to where you can land in the front or the back of the opponent. The setup was something like: 123, take a quick stepback, jump in. Depending how long of a stepback you took determined if you landed in front or back. It was a nice alternative to her midscreen mixup game and now it's gone because you can simply roll out of 123. It's just annoying they didn't put this in the patch notes.

You can still try it in training mode now with "Roll" option off to see what I mean.

 

[xWEBSx]

Prior to 1.03, her 123 used to be an unrollable/untechable knockdown. This lead to an extremely ambiguous jump in setup to where you can land in the front or the back of the opponent. The setup was something like: 123, take a quick stepback, jump in. Depending how long of a stepback you took determined if you landed in front or back. It was a nice alternative to her midscreen mixup game and now it's gone because you can simply roll out of 123. It's just annoying they didn't put this in the patch notes.

You can still try it in training mode now with "Roll" option off to see what I mean.

I understand perfectly.. And even though 1,2,3 is not heavy in my arsenal and more of a fun tool, add yet ANOTHER NERF for this closet S Tier Heroine.. And you are 100% correct- not in patch notes is a slap in the face.. Unreal...

Also, Good find man..well done.

 

[Mood4food77]

i'm going to list a long list here because she needs more than an overhead buff but here it goes:

TS~1 overhead
f2 15 frame start-up
damage on all gun-shots up to 7% (up from 4) and MB gun shots do 11% (up from 9%)
her shins and feet invincible during her jump animation
forward dash 1.5x longer than it currently is
walking speed 25% faster
remove malfunction on pop-pop gun (although i have yet to receive a malfunction)
trait is invincible to all moves that are not physical
d2 hitbox increase making it viable anti-air
b2 vertical hitbox increased so now it works the same on floaty characters as it does on the others (or lower their hurtboxes)
2d3 +5 on block
harley's feet on tantrum stance invincible

every other character has something over the top but harley (basically) she needs a lot of buffs

 

[DiZzyPhyZiks]

Walk speed is irrelevant. The invincible legs thing on both situations doesnt really make sense. Her hurtbox is a little big, i agree, but harley doesnt have a lot of reason to empty jump anyway. Her hurtbox is much higher during j2 or jump guns which is pretty much the two reasons she would ever want to jump.

Even jumping to avoid a projectile, j2 or jump guns.

I agree with everything else though

 

[Mood4food77]

cause it's like she's the size of doomsday when she jumps
she should be able to jump over projectiles at the peak of her jump, more similar to those of her size (she's a small character afterall)

how is walk speed irrelevant? increasing walk speed makes zoning easier to get by

 

[DiZzyPhyZiks]

Walk speed is irrelevant because you should be either dashing, blocking, or attacking, not just walking

 

[Mood4food77]

walking speed also helps in the footsies department (something harley relies on a lot)

you try dashing against sinestro

 

[xWEBSx]

TS when she is laying down.. It's like she is crouching without blocking.... Bother anyone else? She is laying down for chrissakes.. How does Supes scoop her up during his Super? Tsk tsk tsk...Would really hate to see Harley's hurtbox info... Animated the petite size that you see.. Hurtbox of Grundy..

 

[Mood4food77]

oh and walkspeed has a lot to do with how good batman, batgirl, and nightwing are, their walk speeds allow them to have actually footsies

 

[xWEBSx]

oh and walkspeed has a lot to do with how good batman, batgirl, and nightwing are, their walk speeds allow them to have actually footsies

Batman and Batgirl and Nightwing are forward/backward dashing.. Let me know how good Nightwing walk speed is...

 

[Mood4food77]

nightwing's walkspeed in staff stance is really good, it really helps with spacing his staff

 

[xWEBSx]

nightwing's walkspeed in staff stance is really good, it really helps with spacing his staff

Which is why many staff wings make you come to them- flying Grayson to you, jump to you, or switch to escrima to approach?

 

[Mood4food77]

walk-up grab becomes a more viable option with increased walking speeds
corner shenanigans are stronger with increased walking speed
you are not always forced to dash when getting around zoning (which if you mess up the timing, you'll get punished)

in gives her more footsie options when she's in her optimal range (which is usually outside of sweep range)