Born On a Monday -- Solomon Grundy General Discussion/QA/Combo Thread

[Jeffreys]

ill add speed up his attacks
if anyone has any other ideas please share.

 

[fluxxshredder]

I don't think you realize how small the boost is for a level 1 trait. It would be worthless. Especially if it required you to sacrifice significant damage to get 1 in each and then each time you did the chain you'd continue to sacrifice significant damage to maintain a x1 x1 status.

Ok, how about this....buff his x1 one making 75% of the x2 then nerf the x2 making it 25% of the total buff. Then when u use 2 buffs.....u get a stronger more viable effect. I think just adding another x2 buff would break him.....as it stands right now he either bodies all the blah zoners and rushdown characters or loses it making it 5-5 where it should be. Obviously we all know the crap match ups....so i shouldn't have to list them.....but that's what should be adjusted not adding in the possibility of Health buff and damage buff.....cause wow that would be ridiculous. Ur talking like 45% off of every combo ending in trait and 50 ending in health. So, he would only have to catch u 4 or 5 times (clash adding the fifth time) to kill you. Not to mention footsies and countering jump in's. He would simply be too good....all the 5-5s would be more like 6-4s or worse.

 

[1truking]

Ok, how about this....buff his x1 one making 75% of the x2 then nerf the x2 making it 25% of the total buff. Then when u use 2 buffs.....u get a stronger more viable effect. I think just adding another x2 buff would break him.....as it stands right now he either bodies all the blah zoners and rushdown characters or loses it making it 5-5 where it should be. Obviously we all know the crap match ups....so i shouldn't have to list them.....but that's what should be adjusted not adding in the possibility of Health buff and damage buff.....cause wow that would be ridiculous. Ur talking like 45% off of every combo ending in trait and 50 ending in health. So, he would only have to catch u 4 or 5 times (clash adding the fifth time) to kill you. Not to mention footsies and countering jump in's. He would simply be too good....all the 5-5s would be more like 6-4s or worse.

Not really. He already does 50% off just about any touch close to 60% on most touches and series of set ups. Thats just focusing on the health chain. He only needs 5 touches to beat you including clash.

The matches you'd use the double buff are not really bad match ups except for superman. Deathstroke is 5-5 as it is now and sinestro it really wouldn't change the match much to have both. You still struggle to catch him to land traits at all. In the end it really doesn't him that much at all. You're still never going to use power chain because you only get a 15% buff to damage and you're already doing crazy damage. Well you might use power in a grundy mirror to help counteract the othr grundy's health chain. You'll only use health chain in most matches unless the defense chain will kill and you already have the health chain. It would have a minor impact at best on his overall game.

 

[fluxxshredder]

Not really. He already does 50% off just about any touch close to 60% on most touches and series of set ups. Thats just focusing on the health chain. He only needs 5 touches to beat you including clash.

The matches you'd use the double buff are not really bad match ups except for superman. Deathstroke is 5-5 as it is now and sinestro it really wouldn't change the match much to have both. You still struggle to catch him to land traits at all. In the end it really doesn't him that much at all. You're still never going to use power chain because you only get a 15% buff to damage and you're already doing crazy damage. Well you might use power in a grundy mirror to help counteract the othr grundy's health chain. You'll only use health chain in most matches unless the defense chain will kill and you already have the health chain. It would have a minor impact at best on his overall game.

Ds is 5-5? how is that? all of his projectiles hit twice.....and quick fire flat out beat mb swamp hands.....and if he shoots pre wake up, u have to eat the chip. Sure u can use the chip chain to slow down the zoning....but still getting in is tough. And sword flip is tough to punish, same with sword spin and both negate wc and trait grab mb or not. Cleaver has to slow of armor start up to beat those easily spamable moves. I don't see a 5 - 5.....maybe a bad ds....but not a good one. It's at least a 4-6 ds favor. He controls the pace of that match.

 

[1truking]

Ds is 5-5? how is that? all of his projectiles hit twice.....and quick fire flat out beat mb swamp hands.....and if he shoots pre wake up, u have to eat the chip. Sure u can use the chip chain to slow down the zoning....but still getting in is tough. And sword flip is tough to punish, same with sword spin and both negate wc and trait grab mb or not. Cleaver has to slow of armor start up to beat those easily spamable moves. I don't see a 5 - 5.....maybe a bad ds....but not a good one. It's at least a 4-6 ds favor. He controls the pace of that match.

If you play him like that then yes its at least 6-4 ds favor but thats not how you play the match. First off sword flip isn't tough to punish its at least -18 I think its -21 so you could punish with anything. 112 db2 mb j2 b1 defense chain is about 50% damage and gets you the chip trait. From that point you can block all his shots. It takes 17 assault rifle shots to do 1% damage to you. You can aa his jumps easily and his f3 as well. Walking corpse does punish sword spin so does staying out of range of it. Against DS your goal is to time him out. Its a 5-5 match but the grundy has to be extremely good for it to be a 5-5 but the DS doesn't. However once you reach that skill level in the grundy then even a high skill DS runs it even. WC goes through shots at a proper range then it becomes a guess. If DS does a wakeup he opens himself up to you blocking and punishing. If he doesn't wakeup then he runs the risk of being hit with a trait or tick trait.

Besides you missed the point. Evan assuming that DS was a hard match for grundy thats 2 matches that your buff would truely help in and several it wouldn't even change how you currently should be playing the match. The point of buffs aren't so you're better able to handle a specific match its how you handle matches in general.

 

[fluxxshredder]

If you play him like that then yes its at least 6-4 ds favor but thats not how you play the match. First off sword flip isn't tough to punish its at least -18 I think its -21 so you could punish with anything. 112 db2 mb j2 b1 defense chain is about 50% damage and gets you the chip trait. From that point you can block all his shots. It takes 17 assault rifle shots to do 1% damage to you. You can aa his jumps easily and his f3 as well. Walking corpse does punish sword spin so does staying out of range of it. Against DS your goal is to time him out. Its a 5-5 match but the grundy has to be extremely good for it to be a 5-5 but the DS doesn't. However once you reach that skill level in the grundy then even a high skill DS runs it even. WC goes through shots at a proper range then it becomes a guess. If DS does a wakeup he opens himself up to you blocking and punishing. If he doesn't wakeup then he runs the risk of being hit with a trait or tick trait.

Besides you missed the point. Evan assuming that DS was a hard match for grundy thats 2 matches that your buff would truely help in and several it wouldn't even change how you currently should be playing the match. The point of buffs aren't so you're better able to handle a specific match its how you handle matches in general.

112 has never worked as a punish for me....cause all he has to do is sword flip or duck making u wiff the first 1 then punish u....and frame data is not as useful as ppl think b/c of push back. I do use his chip trait......but the catch is u have blk everything and he gets to attack almost freely from a distance. Sure u can dash blk after low shots or if he jumps. This still leaves u at a disadvantage cause grundy's whole game is wake up stuffing and using his armor to control characters up close. But giving him 2 buffs is too much.....he should not get dmg and anything else or health plus chip.....i just see that being op.

 

[1truking]

112 has never worked as a punish for me....cause all he has to do is sword flip or duck making u wiff the first 1 then punish u....and frame data is not as useful as ppl think b/c of push back. I do use his chip trait......but the catch is u have blk everything and he gets to attack almost freely from a distance. Sure u can dash blk after low shots or if he jumps. This still leaves u at a disadvantage cause grundy's whole game is wake up stuffing and using his armor to control characters up close. But giving him 2 buffs is too much.....he should not get dmg and anything else or health plus chip.....i just see that being op.

There isn't much push back on the sword flip. 112 works easily all the time. I do it constantly. Go to training room before you disount it. You can't duck before the negative frames are gone and ducking doesn't mater because 1 is a mid anyway. You also shouldn't be trying to get in once you have the defense chain on. If you land a 112 db2 j2 b1 defense chain you've done 50%. Your opponent can literally shoot guns the entire rest of the match and you'll still win on a time over. Just get a lead on him and block. If he comes in then standing 2 when he gets in range and look for the f3/j3 and aa grab him.

 

[Mikemetroid]

112 works perfectly vs DS's sword flip.

 

[Pterodactyl]

I don't think you realize how small the boost is for a level 1 trait. It would be worthless. Especially if it required you to sacrifice significant damage to get 1 in each and then each time you did the chain you'd continue to sacrifice significant damage to maintain a x1 x1 status.

That's exactly why I suggested they buff the potency of his chain buffs in the post I made before that one.


I'd take trait buffs in exchange for it being fully clashable.


Of course, for the damage buff they'd have to be smart about the scaling.

 

[1truking]

That's exactly why I suggested they buff the potency of his chain buffs in the post I made before that one.


I'd take trait buffs in exchange for it being fully clashable.


Of course, for the damage buff they'd have to be smart about the scaling.

But still if you're doing level 1 traits only that means you're cutting the biggest damage off your combo's so the buffs would need to be massive for it to be worth doing. In which case you would still ignore the others and go for the health chain in 90% of the fights and do the damage plus end up taking even less damage from everything. No matter how you swing it the buff just doesn't make sense nor does it impact more than 90% of the fights making it a buff along the lines of the walking corpse range buff. Its nice I suppose but it doesn't come into play against people often enough for me to care.

 

[Pterodactyl]

Why are you so fixated with the health buff? I feel that the defense buff isn't all that great in most situations, but the strength buff is decent at x2 against most characters.

Is there some secret about the health buff that I don't know?


I'm by no means a Grundy expert, by the way.


I'd still rather just have them buff all of the traits, level 1 and 2, wether or not the other stuff I suggested happens.

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

112 works perfectly vs DS's sword flip.

I second this. It's hella easy

 

[Nonameformedude]

112 has never worked as a punish for me....cause all he has to do is sword flip or duck making u wiff the first 1 then punish u....and frame data is not as useful as ppl think b/c of push back. I do use his chip trait......but the catch is u have blk everything and he gets to attack almost freely from a distance. Sure u can dash blk after low shots or if he jumps. This still leaves u at a disadvantage cause grundy's whole game is wake up stuffing and using his armor to control characters up close. But giving him 2 buffs is too much.....he should not get dmg and anything else or health plus chip.....i just see that being op.

I dont ever use 112 to punish sword flip, but it does work and is the optimal punish. If you are having trouble with that just use standing 2xx(MB)swamp hands, j2, b1, trait reset of your choice. It does 3% less damage, Its a one button punish that leads into WC if you have no meter, and it will hopefully encourage you to use the standing 2 to poke more.

 

[Nonameformedude]

Why are you so fixated with the health buff? I feel that the defense buff isn't all that great in most situations, but the strength buff is decent at x2 against most characters.

Is there some secret about the health buff that I don't know?


I'm by no means a Grundy expert, by the way.


I'd still rather just have them buff all of the traits, level 1 and 2, wether or not the other stuff I suggested happens.

Grundy already gets 50% with a bar of meter on all his bnb's. That means two combos into the health chain kill anyone regardless of what trait he has on. The benefit from the health chair is most important to grundy for multiple reasons. Someone correct me if im wrong about the actual percentage, but if you land this chain before you are hit and dont take it off you get something around 40% bonus health. This is very much needed because grundys most reliable way to build meter is by eating things in WC. Imo even in the MU's that grundy would use his defense chain, its only beneficial to use if you already have the life lead. The power chains has almost no practical use other than using just the first hit to switch the side the opponent lands on(which can be done for a bar of meter using dead air). Obviously there are situations where using the power chain can be beneficial, but in practical use the health and defense are all thats needed(and you want both hits on any one chain for it to be really effective).

 

[1truking]

Why are you so fixated with the health buff? I feel that the defense buff isn't all that great in most situations, but the strength buff is decent at x2 against most characters.

Is there some secret about the health buff that I don't know?


I'm by no means a Grundy expert, by the way.


I'd still rather just have them buff all of the traits, level 1 and 2, wether or not the other stuff I suggested happens.

To expand on what was just posted. health chain reduces all damage taken by 20%. So as mentioned if you land it before taking any damage you've essentially gained 20% health on each life bar.

Power chain is the goto chain of the bad grundys you run into online. It add's 15% damage IIRC and who cares. Almost any touch with meter leads to 50-59%. meterless you can often do close to 40%. You need 4/5 touches to kill with grundy and power chain doesn't change that. You'll still need 4/5 touches to kill.

Defense chain reduces all chip damage to 10%. Thats not 10% less its 10% of the original total. So if you would've taken 1% in chip you now take .1%. It's still useful in matches where you potentially eat a lot of chip getting in even without the life lead. You can use it against deathstroke for example and move in at a more patient pace and eventually corner him. I remember hearing that it reduces all light attacks to no chip so batmans trait does no chip with it on. Haven't tested that out though.

BSo the health chain does the most damage at 31% raw and it reduces damage you take by 20%. Its the go to trait in almost all matches.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

i can't believe no one has figured out exactly how much damage is cut from using the Health Chain
I don't think it helps you as much as gaining more damage from the Power Chain

I'm not saying anyone is wrong

but 2 WC MB's is 48% with power chain and is unclashable and a dirty setup that when done properly is a true 50/50.

I think it is significantly less without... i think 38%.... maybe?

I mean numbers are numbers....
Grundy's most Reliable way to gain meter is to actually hit someone. I've learned to just use the 1 bar combo's and I typically never lose that bar... because he gains so much of it back within the combo itself.
I stopped using meter to get up.... and started using the background bounce combo's more (70% for a bar).

So to each his own on this one... because I value the Power Chain way more than the Health Chain.

 

[Jeffreys]

i can't believe no one has figured out exactly how much damage is cut from using the Health Chain
I don't think it helps you as much as gaining more damage from the Power Chain

I'm not saying anyone is wrong

but 2 WC MB's is 48% with power chain and is unclashable and a dirty setup that when done properly is a true 50/50.

I think it is significantly less without... i think 38%.... maybe?

I mean numbers are numbers....
Grundy's most Reliable way to gain meter is to actually hit someone. I've learned to just use the 1 bar combo's and I typically never lose that bar... because he gains so much of it back within the combo itself.
I stopped using meter to get up.... and started using the background bounce combo's more (70% for a bar).

So to each his own on this one... because I value the Power Chain way more than the Health Chain.

It doesn't matter to Grundy if you do 50% damage or 70% damage, your still taking off your opponents life bar in two hits, why not ensure that you take that 20% health damage reduction for your own lifebar?

Landing a Walking Corpse is already pretty outdated strategy, and as time goes on it will be almost required for any good Grundy's to master WCC.

And yes learning background combos is a good thing and will be required in the future to max out Grundy's damage while still ensuring that you get trait benefits such as defense trait or health chain.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

and no
you're not always going to take 50% with every touch. not even the best players take 50% every single time

It also goes the same way for your opponent. Most characters take about 40-45% .... so yeah.... they're still going to have to combo you about the same

The numbers can skew either way.

WC is not an outdated strategy.... because the corpse hop works and works well.
Like I said... i'm not saying you are wrong

But i'm not wrong either.

 

[fluxxshredder]

I dont ever use 112 to punish sword flip, but it does work and is the optimal punish. If you are having trouble with that just use standing 2xx(MB)swamp hands, j2, b1, trait reset of your choice. It does 3% less damage, Its a one button punish that leads into WC if you have no meter, and it will hopefully encourage you to use the standing 2 to poke more.

i could chalk it up too lag since all my match experience is online. i will definitely try that. I bet it's just a timing error on my part....there is no way all u guys r wrong.

 

[1truking]

and no
you're not always going to take 50% with every touch. not even the best players take 50% every single time

It also goes the same way for your opponent. Most characters take about 40-45% .... so yeah.... they're still going to have to combo you about the same

The numbers can skew either way.

WC is not an outdated strategy.... because the corpse hop works and works well.
Like I said... i'm not saying you are wrong

But i'm not wrong either.

I need to mess with the corpse hop some more see if I'm missing something because when I really started to play with it I noticed that if you finish the WC with your foot forward you can't get a cross up scenario with the stance switch or even just doing an up close neutral jump. If you finish with foot back the stance switch causes you to cross up and of course you can try to do a slight step back then stance switch so it doesn't cross up. But if what I've been testing is right then its not as useful since you have to have your stance set to begin with. I did a lot of experimenting with starting stance and couldn't find a way to cross up with foot forward.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

I need to mess with the corpse hop some more see if I'm missing something because when I really started to play with it I noticed that if you finish the WC with your foot forward you can't get a cross up scenario with the stance switch or even just doing an up close neutral jump. If you finish with foot back the stance switch causes you to cross up and of course you can try to do a slight step back then stance switch so it doesn't cross up. But if what I've been testing is right then its not as useful since you have to have your stance set to begin with. I did a lot of experimenting with starting stance and couldn't find a way to cross up with foot forward.

Against people with only single hit wakeups... you can sneak a Grave Rot and still get the same setup.... because they'll respect the WC

It isn't something I do everytime... because you have three different things you can do off the MB WC.

It is just shocking for someone to see you always do ... Grave Rot f1,3 90%.... then all the sudden you just jump straight up and it crosses up their wakeup and they eat a full 60% combo

He has good Oki off of it that is completely safe.... and why I use the Power Chain in conjunction. Just my playstyle.

 

[fluxxshredder]

I tried that punish......it would wiff regularly for me.....cause i hold back for too long. lol So i'm walking back when i should've already started the 11 animation so......now i do 2 bf2, 22, trait. Works wonders....even tested it online....i didn't know the n2 was so good 13 frames, great range, and plus on blk.....u can cancel it into wc or dead air.

 

[fr stack]

health is my favourite trait , i just yolo wcc after getting a health trait its so intimidating

 

[nAuseA87]

Its a 5-5 match but the grundy has to be extremely good for it to be a 5-5 but the DS doesn't

You don't seem to understand how these mu's numbers work. An "extremely good" Grundy vs. a whatever-skill DS being 5-5 is simply a silly and irrelevant statement. The accurate numbers would show when two equally good players face each other, not a good player vs a not so good player.

Let's pretend two mastermind computers (or two highly professional players of equal skill) would play against each other (Grundy vs DS). They play 1000 games, so the mistakes they would make over all these matches even out.

I'm very certain DS will come out the winner. By how, much I do not know, but in my opinion DS is AT LEAST a 55% favorite. At least.

 

[1truking]

You don't seem to understand how these mu's numbers work. An "extremely good" Grundy vs. a whatever-skill DS being 5-5 is simply a silly and irrelevant statement. The accurate numbers would show when two equally good players face each other, not a good player vs a not so good player.

Let's pretend two mastermind computers (or two highly professional players of equal skill) would play against each other (Grundy vs DS). They play 1000 games, so the mistakes they would make over all these matches even out.

I'm very certain DS will come out the winner. By how, much I do not know, but in my opinion DS is AT LEAST a 55% favorite. At least.

Actually no I do understand better than you and probably anybody here. The match is 5-5 based on high level grundy and high level deathstroke play. The statement that it takes a skilled grundy for you to see the balance in the match applies because often at even lower skill levels you'll find the match up numbers play out pretty accurately. If you have an average grundy vs an average DS you run into a lopsided looking match. As illustrated by posts in this thread not all grundy's have a concept of how the fight is supposed to work. I am a very good grundy and I typically split against high skill deathstrokes. Grundy needs to land a defense trait which isn't terrible difficult to do. Deathstroke can't do guns when grundy is in walking corpse range or risk getting opened up and grundy has a strong wake up game and can punish deathstroke if he blocks sword flip or baits sword spin. Both sides have to make reads to win but grundy does significantly more damage and takes away deathstrokes options if he makes one read.

Pig recently made a similiar comment to me regarding a zod matchup. He said it was 5-5 but the zod had to be very good before the 5-5 became apparent. You have two pro's/former pro's using the exact same terminology and analogy maybe its you who doesn't understand. It's rather condescending to explain to me how match up charts work when I was placing top 8 at major tournaments and writing strategy guides before you had a concept of how high level fighting games worked.