BnB, Max Damage, & Setup Combos Discussion [OLD THREAD. OUT-DATED]

[cirkusfreaksho]

Maybe I wasn't clear. You're still setting up a reset, it's not a jump in attempt. Instead of doing MB grab, j.2, f+113 daggers, you just do MB grab, j.2. You lose 11% from the combo but get much more advantage, making the reset more likely to succeed.

no i get what your saying...theres no point to not go into the reset.... J.2 after the MB grab is a jump in attack whether you jump forward or straight up into a blockstring or w.e. Yes they are forced to block what you do after the j.2 but why not go for the standing reset and use the advantage to start your mindgames without losing the damage. 11% is a good amount

 

[ApocaLips]

What are you dropping with f+113 xx BF1? Maybe we could help.

Remember, it's not just damage, it's meter you're losing too. Could be the difference between the next combo having a bar to burn on it. Plus the damage can matter a bit, two strong combos means you only had to hit with a few Glaciers or anti-airs or whatnot.

I'm not dropping it. It's just an added plus that it's easier. The important thing is to eliminate options to escape, which I named earlier - backdash, poke (especially as people start figuring out what stuffs slide), armor, etc.

I think the meter dropped is negligible as well, but I'll double check on that.

no i get what your saying...theres no point to not go into the reset.... J.2 after the MB grab is a jump in attack whether you jump forward or straight up into a blockstring or w.e. Yes they are forced to block what you do after the j.2 but why not go for the standing reset and use the advantage to start your mindgames without losing the damage. 11% is a good amount

You're still going for a standing reset. You trade the damage to make the reset tighter. I explained why I don't mind losing the damage - because that damage ultimately won't end up mattering.

 

[Primiera]

If you're not a fan of daggers, you could go for NJ2 > f+112~4. That will have far, far more frame advantage than you could need for an unbreakable 50/50 and you'll get a little more damage/meter out of it than raw NJ2.

Or if you're into trait charging, you could finish your charge after MB Ice Grab and get an insane reward on the 50/50.

 

[WLK_EdwarD]

Here's a combo without bars guys i hope u like!

 

[Seapeople]

Slide, u3, u3, (whiffed b2) is a pretty cool ghetto reset. It sacrifices about 10% damage but gives you an ambiguous crossup depending on how early you whiff the b2. Your next blockstring can't be escaped by jumping, poking, or using armor (unless it's a wakeup), and slide can't even be escaped if timed correctly. Not sure if this will be worth using but I kinda like it. Maybe there's a way to set it up for more damage...

This can be done using three u3s but that makes it really hard to position yourself to land in front of the opponent.

 

[xKhaoTik]

Idk if b3 combos were discussed, but i found a 41% b3 combo, 46% one bar b3 combo that ends with the reset, and 50% 2 bar b3 combo that ends with a reset.

41% - b3, j3, f113 slide, u3, 2 iceberg.

46% - b3, j3, slide, u3, 22 MB Grab, j2 f113 dagger

50% - b3, j3, f113 slide, u3, 2 MB Iceberg, MB Grab, j2 f113 dagger.


Seapeople mannnnnnn I thought I found that 73% trait combo lol. I was gonna post it today. Thank God I checked the thread before posting.


Also, I came up with a nice corner combo using trait charge. Its completely worthless and its mainly swag, but it could give us an idea of her trait charge combos to be discovered in the future. The game is still fresh so this combo is still in its early phases:


1133, d2 4, 11 4, 111 slide, 2 super.

 

[16 Bit]

I get what you're saying, Apocalips. I still have not come close to mastering the f+1,1,3~daggers reset. I mistime the slide and they can jump out. Since you can always jump out of f+3 my opponents often jump banking on me doing f+3 or hoping I don't do slide fast enough. It's tough IMO. Must be only a few frames to get the unjumpable slide. I have to use anti-jump out strategies all the time because it's so unreliable. Who's actually got that down? I practice by having the CPU set to jump away then hit them with f+1,1,3~daggers and try to slide them. It seems like there's certain MU it's harder in, I use Catwoman to prsctice. I'm not sure if my struggle with this is me sucking or if others have the same problem.

 

[RiBBz22]

I get what you're saying, Apocalips. I still have not come close to mastering the f+1,1,3~daggers reset. I mistime the slide and they can jump out. Since you can always jump out of f+3 my opponents often jump banking on me doing f+3 or hoping I don't do slide fast enough. It's tough IMO. Must be only a few frames to get the unjumpable slide. I have to use anti-jump out strategies all the time because it's so unreliable. Who's actually got that down? I practice by having the CPU set to jump away then hit them with f+1,1,3~daggers and try to slide them. It seems like there's certain MU it's harder in, I use Catwoman to prsctice. I'm not sure if my struggle with this is me sucking or if others have the same problem.

People jump out on me all the time and it is annoying, I agree. The most annoying part about it is sometimes I will miss an optimal follow-up to the slide when it actually does hit because I will not expect it to and kind of fall asleep at the wheel in that respect.

 

[RiBBz22]

So I've been dropping the f+113xxdaggers at the end of my resets and just using the hitstun off of j.2. I think it's a much better setup overall.

Sure, you lose 11% on your combo, which looks big. However, you're still doing 33% on each successful mixup, so you're still in a 2-mixup win situation as you would if you leave in the f+113xxdaggers.

In return, you get a LOT more advantage. The j.2 leaves them in that odd stagger state that was in MK where you can't do anything but block. It makes the f+3 or slide mixup much, much tighter.

On the other hand, ending with daggers leaves you at only at +9. That means if you're going straight into overhead, the enemy has 10 frames to do something. Slide is even slower.

Using only j.2 means no chances to backdash, jump, poke, or use an armored move. It's also basically error-proof on KF's end - no need to be nearly frame perfect on the f3 or slide anymore. You can even buffer either move during the jump attack.

The tradeoff has been working very well for me. I don't even notice the loss in damage because, again, it's still going to take 2 successful mixups to kill after reset regardless. But enemies aren't getting out nearly as often, whether my fault or theirs. I'm more than happy to exchange inconsequential damage to increase the odds of succeeding on any given reset.

I hear ya on having to time f3 or slide being a nuisance allowing people to escape. However, I think as a rule of thumb we as a community need to keep grinding to perfect the timing on traps like this. I think what you are saying regarding getting a larger advantage from the j2 hit stun could be a good option if you are in the situation where the extra 11% damage you are giving up won't close out a round, but a successful mix-up will.

Another option is to look at some alternative ways to use the +9 (I think the frame data is probably wrong and we are actually at a little more advantage) to get damage. Check out the options you can do after the mb grab in the thread by Scar for some of those alternatives.

 

[ApocaLips]

Lowering the execution bar is a secondary concern. The primary concern is to eliminate escape options, which I believe there are plenty for most characters right now. I just don't think a 10 frame window (the window you give the opponent even when you perfectly execute an f3) is tight enough, and I think the daggers setup will get blown up pretty soon.

+9 looks like a big number, but set the dummy to jump and you'll see how early he can actually move if you're going for a slow move like slide or f3. We need to tighten it up.

And on the damage note - I'm saying the extra 11% is overkill. If you do 44% or 33% per successful mixup, you're still going to win on two correct guesses in either case.

 

[xKhaoTik]

I get what you're saying, Apocalips. I still have not come close to mastering the f+1,1,3~daggers reset. I mistime the slide and they can jump out. Since you can always jump out of f+3 my opponents often jump banking on me doing f+3 or hoping I don't do slide fast enough. It's tough IMO. Must be only a few frames to get the unjumpable slide. I have to use anti-jump out strategies all the time because it's so unreliable. Who's actually got that down? I practice by having the CPU set to jump away then hit them with f+1,1,3~daggers and try to slide them. It seems like there's certain MU it's harder in, I use Catwoman to prsctice. I'm not sure if my struggle with this is me sucking or if others have the same problem.

I cry/laugh everytime someone jumps out. I can usually get it down to the perfect frame offline, but online its damn near impossible. I've even been poked out of my slide follow up online lolol

 

[RiBBz22]

Lowering the execution bar is a secondary concern. The primary concern is to eliminate escape options, which I believe there are plenty for most characters right now. I just don't think a 10 frame window (the window you give the opponent even when you perfectly execute an f3) is tight enough, and I think the daggers setup will get blown up pretty soon.

+9 looks like a big number, but set the dummy to jump and you'll see how early he can actually move if you're going for a slow move like slide or f3. We need to tighten it up.

And on the damage note - I'm saying the extra 11% is overkill. If you do 44% or 33% per successful mixup, you're still going to win on two correct guesses in either case.

Hopefully once they fix the frame data we will truly know what the advantage is and how fast slide is, and then we can make more definitive judgements on what traps are worthwhile. There is no way slide is 21 frames of startup and since daggers hit twice, the frame data is probably messed up on that as well.

I understand your point about the damage and the math involved to get to 100%, no worries there. I am just saying that it makes the most sense to exhaust our efforts in perfecting some of these setups that may have smaller windows that lead to more damage because every round is different, and a lot of them do not simply just come down to a number of guesses multiplied by combo damage.

 

[RiBBz22]

I cry/laugh everytime someone jumps out. I can usually get it down to the perfect frame offline, but online its damn near impossible. I've even been poked out of my slide follow up online lolol

Honestly, it is a pretty tight window so if people jump out when I have slid, I don't even hate.

 

[ApocaLips]

Hopefully once they fix the frame data we will truly know what the advantage is and how fast slide is, and then we can make more definitive judgements on what traps are worthwhile. There is no way slide is 21 frames of startup and since daggers hit twice, the frame data is probably messed up on that as well.

I understand your point about the damage and the math involved to get to 100%, no worries there. I am just saying that it makes the most sense to exhaust our efforts in perfecting some of these setups that may have smaller windows that lead to more damage because every round is different, and a lot of them do not simply just come down to a number of guesses multiplied by combo damage.

Agreed on all counts.

 

[Lord Beef]

I get what you're saying, Apocalips. I still have not come close to mastering the f+1,1,3~daggers reset. I mistime the slide and they can jump out. Since you can always jump out of f+3 my opponents often jump banking on me doing f+3 or hoping I don't do slide fast enough. It's tough IMO. Must be only a few frames to get the unjumpable slide. I have to use anti-jump out strategies all the time because it's so unreliable. Who's actually got that down? I practice by having the CPU set to jump away then hit them with f+1,1,3~daggers and try to slide them. It seems like there's certain MU it's harder in, I use Catwoman to prsctice. I'm not sure if my struggle with this is me sucking or if others have the same problem.

I was meaning to ask. Since f3 can be jumped, is there another set up outside of the f113~daggers being used to make the 50/50 a bit more of a true two-way guessing game. rather than having the added variable of the jump out?

 

[Primiera]

I was meaning to ask. Since f3 can be jumped, is there another set up outside of the f113~daggers being used to make the 50/50 a bit more of a true two-way guessing game. rather than having the added variable of the jump out?

f+3 can't necessarily be jumped, at least, I've recorded setups where I do the setup on myself and I can only jump backwards, but I don't even know if you can jump back if the timing is tighter. Online you'll probably get jumped ...

NJ2 > f+112~4 is way looser, no timing involved more or less.

 

[Primiera]

Idk if b3 combos were discussed, but i found a 41% b3 combo, 46% one bar b3 combo that ends with the reset, and 50% 2 bar b3 combo that ends with a reset.

41% - b3, j3, f113 slide, u3, 2 iceberg.

46% - b3, j3, slide, u3, 22 MB Grab, j2 f113 dagger

50% - b3, j3, f113 slide, u3, 2 MB Iceberg, MB Grab, j2 f113 dagger.

Thanks, I'll add them to that list I made until better ones are found. They look pretty online-proof as well!

 

[Lord Beef]

f+3 can't necessarily be jumped, at least, I've recorded setups where I do the setup on myself and I can only jump backwards, but I don't even know if you can jump back if the timing is tighter. Online you'll probably get jumped ...

NJ2 > f+112~4 is way looser, no timing involved more or less.

Wait, i thought f112 ended in a knock down? I might be thinking of a different string. (forgive me, I have had very little time to hit the lab since release, So I have just been learning old school..by plying people)

 

[Primiera]

Wait, i thought f112 ended in a knock down? I might be thinking of a different string. (forgive me, I have had very little time to hit the lab since release, So I have just been learning old school..by plying people)

Only the second hit. If you cancel into T as part of your chain, the knockdown portion of it doesn't come out.

 

[Lord Beef]

Only the second hit. If you cancel into T as part of your chain, the knockdown portion of it doesn't come out.

Oh nice. So you're saying f112~4 has more hitstun than f113 daggers? Now, it there a risk of the follow up f3/slide still comboing after or does it still create the true 5050 that can be blocked?

 

[Primiera]

Oh nice. So you're saying f112~4 has more hitstun than f113 daggers? Now, it there a risk of the follow up f3/slide still comboing after or does it still create the true 5050 that can be blocked?

Definitely more hit-stun than BF1.

Links don't exist in this game as we know them, if you do an attack with a shit ton of frame advantage it will always be a reset if you didn't chain or cancel or juggle.

 

[Lord Beef]

Definitely more hit-stun than BF1.

Links don't exist in this game as we know them, if you do an attack with a shit ton of frame advantage it will always be a reset if you didn't chain or cancel or juggle.

word. I am gonna try this out then too. Might be a better all around replacement for hte dagger ender.

 

[Primiera]

word. I am gonna try this out then too. Might be a better all around replacement for hte dagger ender.

Definitely not all-around as it inflicts a bit less damage and builds a little less meter, but if your opponent is countering your 50/50 with dagger specific timing or you just can't get it in general (online especially) then yeah, it's definitely better.

 

[xKhaoTik]

I've been doing the f112 4 ender lately. I think it creates a true 50/50, and it catches those pesky jumpers/backdashers lol

 

[16 Bit]

Yeah I might switch to f+1,1,2~4 too. At least until I get better at f+1,1,3~daggers into slide, if I decide to play KF long term.