"Believe in magic yet?" - Zatanna Match-Up Discussion thread

[Mr. Mileena]

What makes Batgirl a 5-5?

What panic said, also

Zatanna eliminates batgirls overhead low reset because it can be punished. (5f s1)
And s1 can also punish her bf3 after the low b4 it comes out. She would have to cancel into something unsafe and take a guess.

So Batgirl's options are limited to low starter or overhead into the launcher.

She can do the low and cancel it into something, but it's a guess at that point in which BG can be punished

 

[Pan1cMode]

What panic said, also

Zatanna eliminates batgirls overhead low reset because it can be punished. (5f s1)
And s1 can also punish her bf3 after the low b4 it comes out. She would have to cancel into something unsafe and take a guess.

So Batgirl's options are limited to low starter or overhead into the launcher.

She can do the low and cancel it into something, but it's a guess at that point in which BG can be punished

Overhead low is really a gimmick though. Also, if you know the opponent is gonna try and poke out after b2d3, the BG player can bounce cancel into another overhead with armour (beats pokes) or go into db33 or db2.

 

[Mr. Mileena]

Overhead low is really a gimmick though. Also, if you know the opponent is gonna try and poke out after b2d3, the BG player can bounce cancel into another overhead with armour (beats pokes) or go into db33 or db2.

There's no way to know when an opponent will poke out, it's a guess. If you guess right, well you'll get a nice combo reset for 2 bars, guess wrong, and BG just wasted 2 bars. If she goes into db33 it gives you breathing room from her reset., and her db2 also has holes, but it's all a guessing game again, and if you guess wrong at the end of her db2, at least you're out of her reset
Point is overhead low works on everyone and goes unpunishes except for characters with a 2-5 frame move

 

[Pan1cMode]

There's no way to know when an opponent will poke out, it's a guess. If you guess right, well you'll get a nice combo reset for 2 bars, guess wrong, and BG just wasted 2 bars. If she goes into db33 it gives you breathing room from her reset., and her db2 also has holes, but it's all a guessing game again, and if you guess wrong at the end of her db2, at least you're out of her reset
Point is overhead low works on everyone and goes unpunishes except for characters with a 2-5 frame move

True, but tbh, BG can afford to waste the meter and remain plus maintaining pressure.

I completely agree with you though to make it clear.

 

[DarksydeDash]

So what can be done against Black Adam? His jump goes over the MB fire kiss, his divekick on block seems really hard to punish (unless its whiff punished with levitate), and his air normals beat all of hers from what I experienced.

 

[EMPRESS_SunFire]

So what can be done against Black Adam? His jump goes over the MB fire kiss, his divekick on block seems really hard to punish (unless its whiff punished with levitate), and his air normals beat all of hers from what I experienced.

TBH i have almost no Black Adam experience But always punish his divekick with S3 or MB B3 it on reaction and you're going to use fureball use the slow version.

 

[AK Stormthegates]

So how should Zatanna approach the MMH matchup in general?

 

[Pan1cMode]

So how should Zatanna approach the MMH matchup in general?

Deg vs Reo is probably the best example of it. Although I don't think this MU is worth playing tbh. I always run to Babs.

 

[Phosferrax]

I'd like to get some discussion about Doomsday going. In Sonicboombrad's recent guide to fighting doomsday, @deg222 said about the Zat-Doomie MU this:

"Teleporting - irrelevant, MB venom catches her anytime. If she teleports behind, you d1 xx ES. If she MB teleport behind, jump back every once in a while.
Levitate Teleport - irrelevant , MB venom catches her out of the air.
Damage output - not as significant as you think when you completely out footsie her with d1. Sure she has better mixups on big characters like DD, but she's not gonna land a clean hit very often.

And not only that, but he controls the air by just body splashing. She can somewhat deal with it by f3 on reaction (non-MB), but he can still block when he lands. Post f3, she just gets a standing 3 and her pressure ends there.

Only thing that's preventing this MU from being 7-3 in DD's favor is her trait. When she activates it, she controls half to full screen."

I disagree with the statement that teleporting is irrelevant. Doomsday can't just go ham with venom against Zatanna in neutral or on her wake-up, as if he does venom and Zatanna teleports behind him then she gets a full combo punish. The teleport means that Zatanna is one of the few characters who makes Doomsday think twice about venom. If he catches her with mb venom then he can't just dash up on knockdown and mash buttons either because of wake-up multi-kicks. Knockdown's aren't that bad against Doomie either imo, it just gets an interesting guessing game going, where zatanna has better damage output than him, and ever combo either ends in a vortex, sending doomsday fullscreen into trait or into her corner game.

Thoughts? I'd like to here from a doomsday player's perspective as well.

@EMPEROR PRYCE
@EMPEROR_SunFire
@Mr. Mileena
@Tm_whiteboi
@Pan1cMode

 

[Pan1cMode]

I'd like to get some discussion about Doomsday going. In Sonicboombrad's recent guide to fighting doomsday, @deg222 said about the Zat-Doomie MU this:

"Teleporting - irrelevant, MB venom catches her anytime. If she teleports behind, you d1 xx ES. If she MB teleport behind, jump back every once in a while.
Levitate Teleport - irrelevant , MB venom catches her out of the air.
Damage output - not as significant as you think when you completely out footsie her with d1. Sure she has better mixups on big characters like DD, but she's not gonna land a clean hit very often.

And not only that, but he controls the air by just body splashing. She can somewhat deal with it by f3 on reaction (non-MB), but he can still block when he lands. Post f3, she just gets a standing 3 and her pressure ends there.

Only thing that's preventing this MU from being 7-3 in DD's favor is her trait. When she activates it, she controls half to full screen."

I disagree with the statement that teleporting is irrelevant. Doomsday can't just go ham with venom against Zatanna in neutral or on her wake-up, as if he does venom and Zatanna teleports behind him then she gets a full combo punish. The teleport means that Zatanna is one of the few characters who makes Doomsday think twice about venom. If he catches her with mb venom then he can't just dash up on knockdown and mash buttons either because of wake-up multi-kicks. Knockdown's aren't that bad against Doomie either imo, it just gets an interesting guessing game going, where zatanna has better damage output than him, and ever combo either ends in a vortex, sending doomsday fullscreen into trait or into her corner game.

Thoughts? I'd like to here from a doomsday player's perspective as well.

@EMPEROR PRYCE
@EMPEROR_SunFire
@Mr. Mileena
@Tm_whiteboi
@Pan1cMode

I definitely think that trait is one of her biggest assets in this MU. However I do agree that you have to be more careful with teleports in the DD MU. I don't know if I'd go so far as to call them irrelevant, but they're definitely not as strong in this MU as some others. I tend to think this MU is even but if it's in anyone's favour it'd be in DD's favour. True, the risk/reward is in her favour when she starts her offense, but DD can just plow right through and doesn't really care about anything she has too much.

I don't really have much experiences with this MU however because I also use KF and BG which I usually use in preference to Zatanna in this MU. I need to grind out this MU more before I form a proper opinion.

 

[EMPEROR PRYCE]

I think zatanna builds meter faster than doomsday does. I just put up fireballs and zone. DD can armor through them, but so can every character. Also, trait works wonders.

 

[cR_whiteboi]

I'd like to get some discussion about Doomsday going. In Sonicboombrad's recent guide to fighting doomsday, @deg222 said about the Zat-Doomie MU this:

"Teleporting - irrelevant, MB venom catches her anytime. If she teleports behind, you d1 xx ES. If she MB teleport behind, jump back every once in a while.
Levitate Teleport - irrelevant , MB venom catches her out of the air.
Damage output - not as significant as you think when you completely out footsie her with d1. Sure she has better mixups on big characters like DD, but she's not gonna land a clean hit very often.

And not only that, but he controls the air by just body splashing. She can somewhat deal with it by f3 on reaction (non-MB), but he can still block when he lands. Post f3, she just gets a standing 3 and her pressure ends there.

Only thing that's preventing this MU from being 7-3 in DD's favor is her trait. When she activates it, she controls half to full screen."

I disagree with the statement that teleporting is irrelevant. Doomsday can't just go ham with venom against Zatanna in neutral or on her wake-up, as if he does venom and Zatanna teleports behind him then she gets a full combo punish. The teleport means that Zatanna is one of the few characters who makes Doomsday think twice about venom. If he catches her with mb venom then he can't just dash up on knockdown and mash buttons either because of wake-up multi-kicks. Knockdown's aren't that bad against Doomie either imo, it just gets an interesting guessing game going, where zatanna has better damage output than him, and ever combo either ends in a vortex, sending doomsday fullscreen into trait or into her corner game.

Thoughts? I'd like to here from a doomsday player's perspective as well.

@EMPEROR PRYCE
@EMPEROR_SunFire
@Mr. Mileena
@Tm_whiteboi
@Pan1cMode

At the distance a doomsday should be doing a venom, a teleport I'm positive is a read and not on reaction. And if your wrong you get punished. True, she does have a wakeup you'll somewhat have to respect, but most times doomie will be waiting on knockdown or splashing. So you'll be wasting a bar for nothing and get back in dds pressure. Her damage output doesn't mean that much. She'll only really hurt you on a punish. She can't get close enough to even try to mix him up because of his d1 and air throw. Her only redeeming factor is trait, if she can get that, doomsday can not do anything but walk towards her and take chip. Now Im not the greatest at explaining things, but I've played this mu enough to know this is a clear 6-4 in dds favor.

 

[Phosferrax]

At the distance a doomsday should be doing a venom, a teleport I'm positive is a read and not on reaction. And if your wrong you get punished. True, she does have a wakeup you'll somewhat have to respect, but most times doomie will be waiting on knockdown or splashing. So you'll be wasting a bar for nothing and get back in dds pressure. Her damage output doesn't mean that much. She'll only really hurt you on a punish. She can't get close enough to even try to mix him up because of his d1 and air throw. Her only redeeming factor is trait, if she can get that, doomsday can not do anything but walk towards her and take chip. Now Im not the greatest at explaining things, but I've played this mu enough to know this is a clear 6-4 in dds favor.

This is how I perceive that:

- I meant teleport as a read, can't react to that shit with it. Both characters get good punishes of a correct read in this situation, and if doomsday gets a punish then it puts both of them back into the guessing game on her wake-up, but if Zatanna guesses right you get combo'd into the vortex or comdo'd and then she gets trait up fullscreen.

-If doomsday is waiting on a knockdown then she can teleport away and either zone, or make a read on a venom. Both to me seem like the options of a 5-5 mu, unless i'm being to simplistic in my explanation.

I'll admit however that some of this is theory fighting on my behalf. It may and probably will play out differently in-game. I'll add you on xbl and get a better understanding of the mu though.

 

[cR_whiteboi]

This is how I perceive that:

- I meant teleport as a read, can't react to that shit with it. Both characters get good punishes of a correct read in this situation, and if doomsday gets a punish then it puts both of them back into the guessing game on her wake-up, but if Zatanna guesses right you get combo'd into the vortex or comdo'd and then she gets trait up fullscreen.

-If doomsday is waiting on a knockdown then she can teleport away and either zone, or make a read on a venom. Both to me seem like the options of a 5-5 mu, unless i'm being to simplistic in my explanation.

I'll admit however that some of this is theory fighting on my behalf. It may and probably will play out differently in-game. I'll add you on xbl and get a better understanding of the mu though.

God she's utter horseshit online though. We can play, but I warn you it's won't be anything like it should be lol.
If he's waiting then if she teleport away he gets a dash and back in the range that he beats her in. Doomsday doesn't mindlessly need to venom. Also In-game is a different beast compared to theory fighting. I've played this mu offline with the best zatanna in the world. It's not even. But I can understand why you could think it was.

 

[deg222]

I disagree with the statement that teleporting is irrelevant. Doomsday can't just go ham with venom against Zatanna in neutral or on her wake-up, as if he does venom and Zatanna teleports behind him then she gets a full combo punish. The teleport means that Zatanna is one of the few characters who makes Doomsday think twice about venom. If he catches her with mb venom then he can't just dash up on knockdown and mash buttons either because of wake-up multi-kicks.

Actually, he can mindlessly use MB venom as long as he presses the MB button quick enough. The only way to punish a predicted MB venom is by doing a MB teleport, puppet master. And on her wakeup, he can always play it safe by just neutral jumping your wakeup and if you decide to teleport away, you're just playing into his corner game.

Knockdown's aren't that bad against Doomie either imo, it just gets an interesting guessing game going, where zatanna has better damage output than him, and ever combo either ends in a vortex, sending doomsday fullscreen into trait or into her corner game.

Yeah but the problem is, it's very hard to get a clean punish like Whiteboi said. I have unseeable 50/50s against big characters like DD and I'm still saying that it's 6/4 in DD's favor because of how much he overwhelms her.

 

[KillaGthug4Life]

I'm agreeing with Deg there. The hop of a Dash Doomsday has makes it very difficult for Zatanna to halt his approach with Puppet Master. And just by teleporting she does not get a free full screen whiff punish on DD. Maybe she could throw some rings and put up zoning pressure, although it may offer a free safe trait activation...

In trait if DD meterburns his venom it beats out lightning cage, I'm assuming that Zatanna's sparks stop the start up of his venom?

 

[KH_Seraph]

Can anyone tell me about the Scorpion Zatanna matchup or help revisit that? I'm honestly not sure what to do with this one; it seems like every single one of scorpions tools just stuff whatever she can do. The spear literally homes in on Zatanna if I try to jump and leve/teleport, for example. .. Scorpion seems to be able to do a lot of things for free. I pretty much play the MU how the scorpion wants to play it, and only get real damage in if I block a tele or zone him out (which he can counter with tele).

Thoughts?

 

[DarksydeDash]

Can anyone tell me about the Scorpion Zatanna matchup or help revisit that? I'm honestly not sure what to do with this one; it seems like every single one of scorpions tools just stuff whatever she can do. The spear literally homes in on Zatanna if I try to jump and leve/teleport, for example. .. Scorpion seems to be able to do a lot of things for free. I pretty much play the MU how the scorpion wants to play it, and only get real damage in if I block a tele or zone him out (which he can counter with tele).

Thoughts?

How well would MB Fire Kiss work in that matchup? It would allow you zone him since he can't teleport and if he trades with spear, its in your favor right? How do you play it @deg222 ?

 

[KH_Seraph]

MB fire kiss is uber punishable by scorpion ' s teleport, or at least it was in my experience. I got bodied hard and when I tried to play more patiently, he would hellfire me. Hellfire seems to catch her in teleport attempts too. What is the best way to punish enhance teleports?

I basically want to know what makes this matchup a 5-5 because it feels like a hard 6-4 or 7-3 matchup even.

 

[bishbash]

Can anyone tell me about the Scorpion Zatanna matchup or help revisit that? I'm honestly not sure what to do with this one; it seems like every single one of scorpions tools just stuff whatever she can do. The spear literally homes in on Zatanna if I try to jump and leve/teleport, for example. .. Scorpion seems to be able to do a lot of things for free. I pretty much play the MU how the scorpion wants to play it, and only get real damage in if I block a tele or zone him out (which he can counter with tele).

Thoughts?

Learn Wonder Woman

I think we rely so much on zoning and teleporting away from pressure that many Zatanna players see all the MUs where she's unable to as unfavourable.

I do agree through that Scorpion can be difficult for her to handle, in my experience at least. Both have a crazy death touch factor but I'd say she has more options than him, at least once she's in.

All either needs is an opening, I usually spend my time blocking and dashing/neutral jumping when I notice hellfires start up hoping to frustrate the opponent into doing something unsafe. Every opportunity has to be rinsed and I wont repeat my setups.

I think there's a video of Zatanna vs Scorpion played at tournament, I'll have a look...

 

[deg222]

I dunno, Scorpion is stupid to fight online and I haven't really had much experience with him offline. I usually just pick Harley to body Scorpions lol.

 

[deg222]

What is the best way to punish enhance teleports?

Block low twice, 112.

 

[KillaGthug4Life]

If you keep your distance and force Scorpion to teleport in. He can normal teleport because on block thats full d1 punish, so he has to burn a bar to actually get close. His spear has a huge startup so if you' waiting on it's easy to read and teleport behind for punish. Hell fire is a little more difficult, but scorpion players typically get predictable with it and into patterns. So just be aware of that. This is just a matchup were Zatanna has to work off of reads mostly.

 

[bishbash]

If you keep your distance and force Scorpion to teleport in. He can normal teleport because on block thats full d1 punish, so he has to burn a bar to actually get close. His spear has a huge startup so if you' waiting on it's easy to read and teleport behind for punish. Hell fire is a little more difficult, but scorpion players typically get predictable with it and into patterns. So just be aware of that. This is just a matchup were Zatanna has to work off of reads mostly.

You can punish regular teleport with standing 3 for more damage

 

[Pan1cMode]

You can punish regular teleport with standing 3 for more damage

Yeah, but I use 112 because it's much more consistent and it punishes both MB and non MB tele.