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"Believe in magic yet?" - Zatanna Match-Up Discussion thread

Espio

Espio

Kokomo
Pan1cMode said:
Standing 3 is faster than flash's b2 and reaches just as far. 3~cards or 3~tele or 3~mb kicks. React to dashes with standing 3. Don't be afraid of the neutral.

If you're feeling pressured, jump back levi helps bait stuff out which you can whiff punish with divekick/j1/j2. Jumping in on flash is risky because his d2 is good, but Flash shouldn't be able to jump in on you either (your d2 should win and failing that ji1 air to air).

Try and slip into trait when you can since your +projectiles create some neat frame traps. Also, bait out the lightning charge and punish by either ducking the MB or by lightning cage. Flash will try and bait out lightning cage, but you can trick him by just using projectiles or 2~low spark or 2~tele or 1/2~df3.

I feel this is 5-5.
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That feel when you get tagged and think it's to address your post, but it's not :(.

At least a cute Aussie boy acknowledged me though (but not on purpose lol ;____; ).
 
Phosferrax

Phosferrax

Original Liu Kang cop.
Pan1cMode said:
Standing 3 is faster than flash's b2 and reaches just as far. 3~cards or 3~tele or 3~mb kicks. React to dashes with standing 3. Don't be afraid of the neutral.

If you're feeling pressured, jump back levi helps bait stuff out which you can whiff punish with divekick/j1/j2. Jumping in on flash is risky because his d2 is good, but Flash shouldn't be able to jump in on you either (your d2 should win and failing that ji1 air to air).

Try and slip into trait when you can since your +projectiles create some neat frame traps. Also, bait out the lightning charge and punish by either ducking the MB or by lightning cage. Flash will try and bait out lightning cage, but you can trick him by just using projectiles or 2~low spark or 2~tele or 1/2~df3.

I feel this is 5-5.
Click to expand...
The thing I feel about s3 in foosties is that it can't be hit confirmed, and you either have to burn a bar to make it safe (max range kicks isn't even safe) or you just have to do s3~tele, meaning the risk/reward is way skewed against Zat. All i manged to do was corner myself when I did that, or miss combo opportunities, when flash doesn't have to worry about that, as he just derps b2 and gets a 50/50 on block. I find that d2 isn't totally reliable against flash's j2, mind you it is online so a pinch of salt with that one. And I'm finding trait a double-edged sword against a patient flash with good reactions. I just feel like it doesn't really matter how much chip I do, he makes it all back in one combo anyway, and she has to contest his superior footsies as well.
 
KillaGthug4Life

KillaGthug4Life

Believe in Magic yet? Let us Dance
Phosferrax said:
Why do people think that Zat beat Sinestro?
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Ok, so it is a 5.5-4.5 Zatanna favor and here's why: Obviously on read Zatanna can teleport behind and punish fear blast. Neither Sinestro nor Zatanna can play their usual zoning game because they both have the tools to negate it. Sinestro has his shackles that screws up our rings and we have teleport for fear blast. So full screen game is a lot of guessing and reads. However, the ONLY reason in my opinion that this is slightly Zatanna favor is being Sinestro's usual starter that his best footsi tool (the double ax swipe move) on block we can punish their back dash with standing 3. We can also punish shackles up close with standing 3. Once they start not back dashing we can do a low high mixup after his ax swipe footsi.

Some things to remember when playing Sinestro: If he has trait stay completely full screen, stick with rings because puppet master doesn't catch his dash, meterburn teleports are invaluable, Sinestro gets a free d2 after his air ax, and air ax can be punished with mb b3 on reaction.

It's definitely not as good as people make it out to be (ie 7-3. 6-4) but it's not horrible.

Flash however is NOT in our favor and definitely an even matchup. I'm at a complete loss for tools on how to win this matchup though.
 
Mighty Durpyena

Mighty Durpyena

frick
KillaGthug4Life said:
Ok, so it is a 5.5-4.5 Zatanna favor and here's why: Obviously on read Zatanna can teleport behind and punish fear blast. Neither Sinestro nor Zatanna can play their usual zoning game because they both have the tools to negate it. Sinestro has his shackles that screws up our rings and we have teleport for fear blast. So full screen game is a lot of guessing and reads. However, the ONLY reason in my opinion that this is slightly Zatanna favor is being Sinestro's usual starter that his best footsi tool (the double ax swipe move) on block we can punish their back dash with standing 3. We can also punish shackles up close with standing 3. Once they start not back dashing we can do a low high mixup after his ax swipe footsi.

Some things to remember when playing Sinestro: If he has trait stay completely full screen, stick with rings because puppet master doesn't catch his dash, meterburn teleports are invaluable, Sinestro gets a free d2 after his air ax, and air ax can be punished with mb b3 on reaction.

It's definitely not as good as people make it out to be (ie 7-3. 6-4) but it's not horrible.

Flash however is NOT in our favor and definitely an even matchup. I'm at a complete loss for tools on how to win this matchup though.
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Thank the lord someone actually agrees Flash is even and not 7-3 or 6-4 like people have said. Fuck Flash tbh
 
Phosferrax

Phosferrax

Original Liu Kang cop.
Zoning doesn't work against him; you get 2 rings on him and then he's in your face. Trait is a tricky one as well because he has a good jump and lightning charge beats out cage, and is great at whiff punishing it. His j2 is difficult to anti-air but he has an easy time using his d2 against her jumps. He has got a good option to catch tele back on wake up as well and his forward walk speed is so good. He also punishes trance from a good distance with charge.

Honestly if it was in someones favor it would be his.

KillaGthug4Life said:
Ok, so it is a 5.5-4.5 Zatanna favor and here's why: Obviously on read Zatanna can teleport behind and punish fear blast. Neither Sinestro nor Zatanna can play their usual zoning game because they both have the tools to negate it. Sinestro has his shackles that screws up our rings and we have teleport for fear blast. So full screen game is a lot of guessing and reads. However, the ONLY reason in my opinion that this is slightly Zatanna favor is being Sinestro's usual starter that his best footsi tool (the double ax swipe move) on block we can punish their back dash with standing 3. We can also punish shackles up close with standing 3. Once they start not back dashing we can do a low high mixup after his ax swipe footsi.

Some things to remember when playing Sinestro: If he has trait stay completely full screen, stick with rings because puppet master doesn't catch his dash, meterburn teleports are invaluable, Sinestro gets a free d2 after his air ax, and air ax can be punished with mb b3 on reaction.

It's definitely not as good as people make it out to be (ie 7-3. 6-4) but it's not horrible.

Flash however is NOT in our favor and definitely an even matchup. I'm at a complete loss for tools on how to win this matchup though.
Click to expand...
Regarding b12 on block, yes s3 catches a back dash but on hit is he too far for kicks to connect? I need to test this because that could be big. I feel Sinestro has to play this MU a bit like Raven and take a footsies approach. He fucking wrecks Zatanna in footsies and I feel like he doesn't need to zone.
 
C88 Zombieekiler

C88 Zombieekiler

Up and coming sub zero
I cant anti air truuuust me ny man phosferrax knows however good he is he jumps like fuck and if its j3 beats d2 clean others are hit and miss
 
Phosferrax

Phosferrax

Original Liu Kang cop.
C88 Zombieekiler said:
I cant anti air truuuust me ny man phosferrax knows however good he is he jumps like fuck and if its j3 beats d2 clean others are hit and miss
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I jump so much because it's her best way off getting stuff started against him. J3 beats d2 but loses to Flash's j1, and her j1 gets wrecked by d2. His j1 trades with hers and his j2 usually beats it. His j2 also beats her d2 pretty cleanly.
 
C88 Zombieekiler

C88 Zombieekiler

Up and coming sub zero
Phosferrax said:
I jump so much because it's her best way off getting stuff started against him. J3 beats d2 but loses to Flash's j1, and her j1 gets wrecked by d2. His j1 trades with hers and his j2 usually beats it. His j2 also beats her d2 pretty cleanly.
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J1 does not trade at all lol mine gets smashed
 
Phosferrax

Phosferrax

Original Liu Kang cop.
kevkopdx said:
why killer frost? air levitate basically renders her slide useless
also, i agree with @EMPEROR_SunFire about the flash mu - i'd like to see some high level play cuz i dont know what to do in that mu...
sinestro is 5-5 for me.... mb b3 punishing, like @KillaGthug4Life said and full screen reading - i think its a fun match up!
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Frost is only all about slide when she can't play footsies against her opponent. Both of them have a similar level of ability at footsies, it's just that there are few smart frosts that also know about the mu. I also feel that zoning is in Frost's favour.
 
kevkopdx

kevkopdx

Kombatant
Phosferrax said:
Frost is only all about slide when she can't play footsies against her opponent. Both of them have a similar level of ability of footsies, it's just that there are few smart frosts that also know about the mu.
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yes agreed, slide aside, Z feels better at mid range, granted i havent played a frost in forever but it never felt like z was at disadvantage... oh well, i wont lose any sleep over it ;)
 
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