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Match-up Discussion Batgirl, all match-ups

I know we've been talking about other matchups, and I'm a little slow to post stuff due to my schedule.....but something else I learned about the Grundy throw trap setups is that when using bat evade on wakeup, even if they dash and do a f13 to try and catch a backdash....you can hit grundy with the overhead before the 3 hits you out of the air. Just figured I'd share one more thing about what bat evade can beat on this wakeup situation. If you guys test any similar things please share.

Would also like to test out the dd3 against DD. I only seem to get a hit if it is just as he leaves the screen or prior. The timing seems real tight to catch him as he returns to the screen.
 
I have a hard time with Grundy and recently GL. I played a GL who just crouched. When I smoke bombed, he hit me. When I got near, LM. I could spam him with the bolas to chip damage which I sometimes do to people that play far and duck against Batgirl, but he was just better. Still, looking for newer tactics. With other characters I can sometimes sneak in close but it feels much harder against GL.
 
(in regards to a Killer Frost player)

Well today I played against what was for me the best player yet. Now I'm not super good but I'm certainly not a bad player... However this guy was on a whole 'nother level. He beat me 25 games in a row...! o_0 Like no one I've played has been unbeatable. This guy was the first. Had some pretty close ones against him but couldn't seem to seal the deal : /

my discoveries....
- against the slide the best I can do is crouch light punch and a jump back (otherwise he'll punish with an overhead or another slide)
- I can't do wake up attacks against him due to the threat of his freeze counter move
- I have to play the most conservative/defensive game of my life to have any chance at winning

If you guys have any insight on how to play this matchup let me know! and if you're interested in challenging this guy his ID is...xX_EMO_UCHIHA_xX (really solid player. I asked him if he ever loses and he said "yeah but rarely." and yeah I believe it xD ) pretty nice guy though
 

RiBBz22

TYM's Confirmed Prophet/Time-Traveler
(in regards to a Killer Frost player)

Well today I played against what was for me the best player yet. Now I'm not super good but I'm certainly not a bad player... However this guy was on a whole 'nother level. He beat me 25 games in a row...! o_0 Like no one I've played has been unbeatable. This guy was the first. Had some pretty close ones against him but couldn't seem to seal the deal : /

my discoveries....
- against the slide the best I can do is crouch light punch and a jump back (otherwise he'll punish with an overhead or another slide)
- I can't do wake up attacks against him due to the threat of his freeze counter move
- I have to play the most conservative/defensive game of my life to have any chance at winning

If you guys have any insight on how to play this matchup let me know! and if you're interested in challenging this guy his ID is...xX_EMO_UCHIHA_xX (really solid player. I asked him if he ever loses and he said "yeah but rarely." and yeah I believe it xD ) pretty nice guy though
I actually main KF and Batgirl and I think the MU is 5-5. Obviously whenever you get hit by Frost you are put into a terrible guessing game, so the object is to always avoid getting hit at all costs. With Batgirl you are actually pretty free to stay off the ground outside of slide range to avoid iceberg checks, and KF has to be hesitant to throw out daggers at that range because it is an easy teleport punish. If KF knocks you down and tries to pressure you on wake up, obviously batwheel is going to blow up all of her options.

If you are on the edge of slide range, BG's j3 is really good at stuffing slide or leading to block pressure if the move gets blocked. If you land a j3 I will typically just go into one of her standard bnb's off of it for 40+% for 1 bar. On blocked slides I will typically throw KF players until they respect that option and start to back dash or neutral jump. Regardless of what read I make, I will normally start with a backdash and punish a neutral jump on the way down with b12 into vortex. If they decide to back dash instead, I will backdash in reaction and jump backwards in anticipation of slide. If the slide comes out you can j3 into a combo or if she tries to do something else you can punish any relatively long recovering move with smoke bomb.

The only time you really want to be fighting her up close is when you might try to surprise them with a quick dash in b12 or b2u3 launcher (be careful with this since she can slide before you recover from your dash). When I have them conditioned to respect my air options, you can play a sort of footsie game right around max slide range (dashing back and forward). Sometimes you might be able to sneak in a double dash from this range which will open up an opportunity for a block string.
 
If KF knocks you down and tries to pressure you on wake up, obviously batwheel is going to blow up all of her options.
I'm still reading but this just isn't true! he punished just about every wake up cartwheel I threw out! He will activate his counter move and do a full punish : ( I gotta respect that option and just back away : /

and you're saying on a blocked slide I can safely throw out a throw?

and when you say use JI3 on the edge of her slide don't you mean JI2? since a JI3 should knock them down? sorry if it feels like I'm bombarding you with questions I just didn't think you could combo off a JI3.
 

RiBBz22

TYM's Confirmed Prophet/Time-Traveler
If KF knocks you down and tries to pressure you on wake up, obviously batwheel is going to blow up all of her options.
I'm still reading but this just isn't true! he punished just about every wake up cartwheel I threw out! He will activate his counter move and do a full punish : ( I gotta respect that option and just back away : /

and you're saying on a blocked slide I can safely throw out a throw?
What counter move? When you do cartwheel does it say wakeup attack in the corner? It should beat every option KF has. Like I said I main Killer Frost and I would be shocked if this guy is better than I am with her. Not trying to sound arrogant.
 
Lol.... OP starts talking about high level Batgirl play, then all other posters talk about how to fight flow chart Bane's online... Good Bane's won't spam charge from full screen...
 
What counter move? When you do cartwheel does it say wakeup attack in the corner? It should beat every option KF has. Like I said I main Killer Frost and I would be shocked if this guy is better than I am with her. Not trying to sound arrogant.
c'mon brah I have every intention of becoming one of the better players in this game. If I'm missing out on something obvious show me the way ;) I'm not afraid to lose it's how you learn.
 

RiBBz22

TYM's Confirmed Prophet/Time-Traveler
hmm you got a skype/wanna go a few rounds? ^^
Yeah I have Skype but I am at work until 5 eastern time. Add RiBBz22 on PSN. You can throw off a blocked slide and it will work if the KF player is pushing buttons. They are only -4 off slide though so they are able to back dash out or jump, so you have to be prepared to start combating that if they are starting to react to you throwing.
 
Yeah I have Skype but I am at work until 5 eastern time. Add RiBBz22 on PSN. You can throw off a blocked slide and it will work if the KF player is pushing buttons. They are only -4 off slide though so they are able to back dash out or jump, so you have to be prepared to start combating that if they are starting to react to you throwing.
sounds good dude. If not today though definitely tomorrow if you're up for it. If you're confident that means I'll no doubt take something from our games : ) looking forward to it
 
Yeah I have Skype but I am at work until 5 eastern time. Add RiBBz22 on PSN. You can throw off a blocked slide and it will work if the KF player is pushing buttons. They are only -4 off slide though so they are able to back dash out or jump, so you have to be prepared to start combating that if they are starting to react to you throwing.
ah and for the record it has been saying "wakeup" attack when I do it. Pretty confident now on this. when I would do the batwheel as a wakeup he could counter with "frostbite" and he would do this over and over and over. after 25 games I'm pretty damn sure it doesn't work. (he literally would freeze me mid cartwheel lol)
 

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
Does believing that make your losses sting less when you lose to those characters? Certainly doesn't make you better. Good to have excuses in advance though I guess ;)
Losing to guesses doesn't make me feel good at all really..... especially when both options are safe and unseeable.

But she has so much dirt along with her 50/50's. She's really good. Even without the 50/50... she does 40% combo's and kills zoners. She'd be top.
 
Losing to guesses doesn't make me feel good at all really..... especially when both options are safe and unseeable.

But she has so much dirt along with her 50/50's. She's really good. Even without the 50/50... she does 40% combo's and kills zoners. She'd be top.
Y'know it's different for me because I come from a background of starcraft 2. cause like in that game there is always an answer to anything you thought was too good. even if your current self wasn't capable of beating something, you could rest easy knowing that X top player would have no issue with whatever you were having trouble with. So I like to look at this game the same way. Even though I might be having trouble against X I know that X top player who uses my character would demolish the guy I'm having trouble fighting against atm.

with the exception of top level play... Time investment > Balance issues
 

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
Y'know it's different for me because I come from a background of starcraft 2. cause like in that game there is always an answer to anything you thought was too good. even if your current self wasn't capable of beating something, you could rest easy knowing that X top player would have no issue with whatever you were having trouble with. So I like to look at this game the same way. Even though I might be having trouble against X I know that X top player who uses my character would demolish the guy I'm having trouble fighting against atm.

with the exception of top level play... Time investment > Balance issues
yeah but there really isn't a defense against the standing 50/50 resets

hence why KF and batgirl are so good :)
 

RiBBz22

TYM's Confirmed Prophet/Time-Traveler
ah and for the record it has been saying "wakeup" attack when I do it. Pretty confident now on this. when I would do the batwheel as a wakeup he could counter with "frostbite" and he would do this over and over and over. after 25 games I'm pretty damn sure it doesn't work. (he literally would freeze me mid cartwheel lol)
Yes, she can parry batwheel I was just saying if they are trying to pressure you with offense on wakeup. If they are doing the parry, then just block for a second to make sure you don't get slid, then b12 into vortex if they throw the parry out.
 
So Nightwing is a giant pain in the ass matchup. One thing that can help is to keep on him when he's in Escrima mode. In Escrima, he's D1 loses to BG's D1, his specials are worse, and he's less safe overall. And he doesn't have FLying Grayson or Electric Ground pound.

He is in Escrima at the start of the round (obviously) and after every clash.

So I guess the advice here is to forget zoning or going back to change to knuckles... go after NW from the get go.

And, save you meter to win clashes. Winning a clash will knock him down in Escrima, so stay on him. Losing one will put you down and the distance for him to just change right back into Staff.

For reference, NW's style change is only 4 frames quicker than BG's.
 
So I've found out something in the Grundy/Batgirl matchup that can definitely turn the tide in BG's favor.

Grundy's main string (112) hits all 3 mid. However THE FRAME ADVANTAGE IS DIFFERENT DEPENDING ON IF YOU DUCK OR STAND BLOCK IT.

This changes all sorts of things. The main thing is that you can reversal OUT of trait grab and MB trait grab with DF2 or DB2.

Standing:
112 UNSAFE, -7. DF2 will punish clean
112 x Swamp Hands LOSES to reversal DF2, DB2, DB33... whatever. You can just jump or poke out.
112 x Hatchet LOSES to reversal DF2 beats jump, DB3
112 x Trait Grab: CAN ONLY JUMP OUT! DF2, DB2, DB33 all lose.
112 x Walking Corpse: DF2 passes through, GRABS DB2
112 x MB Swamp Hands: Absorbs DF2, BEATS DB2 IN CORNER, LOSES to DB2 midscreen
112 x MB Hatchet: DF2 passes through, BEATS DB2 or DD3
112 x MB Trait Grab CAN ONLY JUMP OUT! DF2, DB2, DB33 all lose.


Crouch block:
112: SAFE! He's at least -5 or better b/c DF2 doesn't punish!
112 x Swamp Hands: Still loses to everything. Safe on block.
112 x Hatchet: Loses to reversal DF2, BEATS DB2, Jump
112 x Trait Grab: LOSES to reversal DF2, DB2, DB33!
112 x Walking Corpse: Passes through DF2, Grabs DB2
112 x MB Swamp Hands: Absorbs DF2, BEATS DB2 IN CORNER, LOSES to DB2 midscreen
112 x MB Hatchet BEATS DF2, DB2, DB33
112 x MB Trait Grab LOSES to reversal DB2, DF2, DD3
 
Also vs Aquaman:

I believe dash-> DF2 punishes scoop at any range.

EDIT: confirmed. This is important because it straight launches and he'll be traitless.
 
Anyone have any answers on how to respond to Aquaman's DF1? I can block it just fine, I can't really punish, it puts you just out of range of sweep.