Match-up Discussion Bane Matchup Discussion

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

Aww I got tagged in here and thought maybe someone posted my bane set vs tyrant's grundy =[

But nooooope just more Doombawkz arguing.




I like GL maybe 6-4 over Bane still. GL is free to shoot straight missiles all day and MB them on reaction to a charge. Jumping missiles also recover fast enough that you can't charge them on reaction unless they're reallllly close. I honestly don't think a good Bane should be charging in the first place though.

Up close Bane has an advantage, but GL will have a lot of meter for MB B3/F3s or pushblocks on a good read. He can also push Bane really far with a 223 xx MB Minigun if he touches Bane at all. An underrated tool in this matchup is d1 xx Lift as it hits twice very quickly, which breaks a lot of bane's armor.

Walking back in generally is really good for GL in this matchup too since his walk back speed is ridiculous. Makes it hard to space your dashes to hit me without getting scooped out of a dash with b1 or whiffing a move.






And Doombawkz you have to understand, people don't hate you because you play Bane, people hate you because you act like a pretentious asshole. I understand that you love your character, and that's fine, but there's a reason why so many people are hating on you and it isn't because of your level of play or your character choice. There is a way to positively promote the work of the Bane forums, but the way you are doing it is a very negative way that makes not only yourself, but the rest of the bane forums look bad.

 

[chief713]

I like GL maybe 6-4 over Bane still. GL is free to shoot straight missiles all day and MB them on reaction to a charge. Jumping missiles also recover fast enough that you can't charge them on reaction unless they're reallllly close. I honestly don't think a good Bane should be charging in the first place though.

Up close Bane has an advantage, but GL will have a lot of meter for MB B3/F3s or pushblocks on a good read. He can also push Bane really far with a 223 xx MB Minigun if he touches Bane at all. An underrated tool in this matchup is d1 xx Lift as it hits twice very quickly, which breaks a lot of bane's armor.

Walking back in generally is really good for GL in this matchup too since his walk back speed is ridiculous. Makes it hard to space your dashes to hit me without getting scooped out of a dash with b1 or whiffing a move.

EGP Wonder_Chef I agree with the stuff you're saying (didn't know about d1 xx lift, sounds like a good tool) , but GL needs a lot of meter in the MU. If he doesn't have it far away, Bane can get in relatively quick, especially if GL doesn't have trait. But up close, he NEEDS meter for MB b/f.3 and pushblock or he has absolutely nothing to check Bane from just going in balls deep. Even then, when Bane juices up to lvl 3, MB missile and b/f.3 can be punished/beaten out. Keep in mind also that he needs meter to do good combo damage as well as clash. What's even more messed up is, depending on the stage and how the round starts, it's more than possible for GL to be nearly down a life bar before he even gets a chance to use any meter.

I feel like it takes GL too long to zone Bane to death, and if he tries to go in he puts himself at the very real risk of getting knocked down and literally losing the round without ever getting back on his feet. Also, I believe the MU demands more meter than GL can build and have handy at all times. Thoughts?

 

[Doombawkz]

Aww I got tagged in here and thought maybe someone posted my bane set vs tyrant's grundy =[

And Doombawkz you have to understand, people don't hate you because you play Bane, people hate you because you act like a pretentious asshole. I understand that you love your character, and that's fine, but there's a reason why so many people are hating on you and it isn't because of your level of play or your character choice. There is a way to positively promote the work of the Bane forums, but the way you are doing it is a very negative way that makes not only yourself, but the rest of the bane forums look bad.

Bane vs Grundy is free, nothing to see here. >_> If I wanted to watch a 3-7 MU I'd go play Rev0lver's Lex.
The term "arguing" means disagreement or dissonance. I'm "agreeing" with what Reno Racks and you have said about me.

Also pot calling the kettle black? I don't go around saying the UK scene is weak because "they never have to prove themselves", when I'm fully aware that their top 4 could body out most of WNF for free, yourself included, and a good amount of top players to boot. That alone is more "pretentious asshole" than anything I've ever said, especially when you've yet to prove yourself as well. If Pig or Tom (who constantly references Maxintensity as a great Bane every time the character is brought up) said "Hey Doombawkz, you are laying it on a little thick." then I would (and have) pull(ed) it back a bit because they are people whose opinions have weight to them. They've done enough to earn the respect needed to make such comments.




I do my best not to overstep my reach, I don't tell players they are bad and I think the worst I've said about anyone as a whole is calling Grr average and that was just from a standpoint of his venom usage and general strategy, and I even told Grr I was just being a catty bitch and respect him fully. I have fun, I antagonize the Killer Frost players, and I brag about us converting Mr. Mileena to making Bane his first male character. Outside of that, its song remixes, discussions I don't bring Bane up in, and talking over new tech with the character council in private. If other forums had the same outlook I did, there probably wouldn't be near as many buff/nerf threads and some subforums would have more posts than our character council instead of less.

But they don't, they would prefer to piss and moan about how unfair life is for their character. I'm not okay with that.

tl;dr : I'm the most eccentric Bane and if people are willing to judge the entire forum off of one person then the Aquaman forum are all hyper-depressive players, the Deathstroke forums are all relentless downplayers with a fixation on low guns, and the Sinestro forums are people who are entirely hopeless because their projectiles are -35 on block. Those people's opinions don't matter, its the ones who are willing to try those characters that do. Also, you are the best GL I have played but as DS would say "You're getting annoying."

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

If Pig or Tom (who constantly references Maxintensity as a great Bane every time the character is brought up) said "Hey Doombawkz, you are laying it on a little thick." then I would (and have) pull(ed) it back a bit because they are people whose opinions have weight to them. They've done enough to earn the respect needed to make such comments.

Just saying, the only tournament that I've been to with Tom or Pig there was Evo, and I tied with Pig and outplaced Tom.

 

[Doombawkz]

Just saying, the only tournament that I've been to with Tom or Pig there was Evo, and I tied with Pig and outplaced Tom.

-snip-

You aren't worthy of receiving my multi-paragraph criticisms.
Instead, I'll post your set because it is half decent. >_>

http://www.twitch.tv/teamhazmat/b/447939702?t=4h44m50s

You should go for less command grab against Grundy, and do more 113 strings. That super whiffs sometimes, its really weird but if you do the 123 too late after the b.23 they'll be too low to catch with it. Even if you don't care about Bane, you didn't do badly.

 

[big_aug]

SO serious over a fighting game.

I still say there is no way Bane wins the GL match up. All he has to do is guess right one time to get away and pop a MB chain gun to push you back. Chain gun all day with slide canceled into more chain gun if we get close.

 

[Doombawkz]

I disagree.

I won't say Bane dominates, but I don't see it being as bad as you make it seem. Even I, with all of my horrid skills, can get in at least once.

 

[big_aug]

I disagree.

I won't say Bane dominates, but I don't see it being as bad as you make it seem. Even I, with all of my horrid skills, can get in at least once.

Getting in once doesn't mean anything. GL is always one guess away from pushing you out again. He has plenty of meter to spare in the matchup even if he is MBing chain guns the whole time.

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

Even if you don't care about Bane, you didn't do badly.

I play Bane quite a bit actually.

I like Bane a lot.

 

[Doombawkz]

Getting in once doesn't mean anything. GL is always one guess away from pushing you out again. He has plenty of meter to spare in the matchup even if he is MBing chain guns the whole time.

However, he still has to make that guess. We don't, we can just follow practically flowchart tactics without needing to wonder what his next move will be because we don't have to care for the most part.

 

[Doombawkz]

I play Bane quite a bit actually.

I like Bane a lot.

You do well with him. Against Grundy, honestly if you just avoid command grabbing in the neutral game you'd have won just about every set barring one or two. Half of his kit is grab immune as it is. If you ever fight him again and land a command grab ender, you can mash out 113 against him and it'll hit like a dream come true.

How odd, didn't you say Bane was boring one time when you asked who you should lab with and I suggested him...?

 

[chief713]

Getting in once doesn't mean anything. GL is always one guess away from pushing you out again. He has plenty of meter to spare in the matchup even if he is MBing chain guns the whole time.

If you get in on GL, more often than not, it'll be the end (or close) to the round. He can guess right, but it's not in his favor at all. And he shouldn't be able to spam MB chain gun and have lots of spare meter. If he does, then you could be playing a bit too passive.

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

You do well with him. Against Grundy, honestly if you just avoid command grabbing in the neutral game you'd have won just about every set barring one or two. Half of his kit is grab immune as it is. If you ever fight him again and land a command grab ender, you can mash out 113 against him and it'll hit like a dream come true.

How odd, didn't you say Bane was boring one time when you asked who you should lab with and I suggested him...?

I might have been joking because I know you like bane so much.


I know command throw, b23, and B11 are grab immune in various places, what else is grab immune?

 

[Doombawkz]

I might have been joking because I know you like bane so much.


I know command throw, b23, and B11 are grab immune in various places, what else is grab immune?

As a character in DC, I actually don't like Bane all that much barring him snapping Batman in half. The flash, imo, is a much better character. Lots of charisma, has more power than most anyone but isn't all "boo hoo I'm superman" about it. He plays really well and I'm just too lazy to learn anyone else. I land like 40% traitless 1 bar combos as GL and I'm just like "nerp, back to Bane."

For Bane, or for grundy?
If you mean Bane, Command grab, b.23, b.21, charge, b.11, f.1 (certain frames), 113 (inbetween the 1 and 3), 112 (inbetween the 1 and 2), f.2.d.3 (-20, don't use it). Theres some topic in the Grundy forums listing them all but those are the ones that come to mind.

And lemme think... I know for us, d.2xxcommand throw beats grab immunity if you ever need it. Its the only thing I can advise against Grundy because it outranges a lot of his normal attacks and its faster than anything it doesn't. On his wake-up, you can pretty much b.1 into whatever and its free. On block, 113 charge and 123 charge are no-gaps, which basically means if he is pressing anything inbetween them (buffering attacks or anything of the sort) you'll stuff it without it having a chance to come out (for the most part). Those two, b.23 and b.21 have pretty much 0 or 1 frame gaps inbetween animation so its handy for getting over-eager opponents.

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

As a character in DC, I actually don't like Bane all that much barring him snapping Batman in half. The flash, imo, is a much better character. Lots of charisma, has more power than most anyone but isn't all "boo hoo I'm superman" about it. He plays really well and I'm just too lazy to learn anyone else. I land like 40% traitless 1 bar combos as GL and I'm just like "nerp, back to Bane."

For Bane, or for grundy?
If you mean Bane, Command grab, b.23, b.21, charge, b.11, f.1 (certain frames), 113 (inbetween the 1 and 3), 112 (inbetween the 1 and 2), f.2.d.3 (-20, don't use it). Theres some topic in the Grundy forums listing them all but those are the ones that come to mind.

And lemme think... I know for us, d.2xxcommand throw beats grab immunity if you ever need it. Its the only thing I can advise against Grundy because it outranges a lot of his normal attacks and its faster than anything it doesn't. On his wake-up, you can pretty much b.1 into whatever and its free. On block, 113 charge and 123 charge are no-gaps, which basically means if he is pressing anything inbetween them (buffering attacks or anything of the sort) you'll stuff it without it having a chance to come out (for the most part). Those two, b.23 and b.21 have pretty much 0 or 1 frame gaps inbetween animation so its handy for getting over-eager opponents.

thanks

I learned the power of B2 xx BF2 on grundy's wakeup part way through that set

 

[Doombawkz]

thanks

I learned the power of B2 xx BF2 on grundy's wakeup part way through that set

Oh yeah, Grundy has a lot of trouble against Bane.
He gives me hope that Bane might only be bottom 6.

 

[big_aug]

If you get in on GL, more often than not, it'll be the end (or close) to the round. He can guess right, but it's not in his favor at all. And he shouldn't be able to spam MB chain gun and have lots of spare meter. If he does, then you could be playing a bit too passive.

Don't get me wrong, I have beaten pretty good GL players and beat them badly. I've gotten flawless victories against solid players. However, that's simply getting lucky. They guessed wrong every time. People make it seem like you can block/dash a couple chain guns and the match is over. It's just not the case. GL has solid damage and solid resets. Sure, you CAN block his resets. And he CAN guess right against us. We can not even begin to fight the match until we are on top of him. He's getting at least chip damage the entire time.

With trait + meter, he can do nothing but chain gun for quite a while and we can do absolutely nothing about it. We are eating chip and getting pushed back. There is no counter. You can block/dash, but you're going right back out. All the GL player has to do is be patient and play keep away. He can use rockets at full screen if we aren't at level 3 until we get into chain gun range. He can mix up his tactics. Remember, we HAVE to get in on him. He knows we're coming, and we have limited options. Block/dash into jump in, command grab, or DP is all we have. If we get in, GL players should not be using wake up attacks. They should back dash or jump. As we all know, double punch doesn't do shit for damage. It takes 5 double punches to do the damage of a standard BnB combo. It doesn't mean jack. Eat the DPs and avoid the combos and command grabs.

All the while, he's building more meter.

 

[HardlyWalken]

Chaingun being an actual projectile would fix that, yeah?

 

[big_aug]

It would help. It's the same scenario with Black Adam. If you are at full screen and he has full meter, you get to eat 4 mb lightnings and there is nothing you can do stop it. To make it worse, he gets almost a full bar of meter back from doing so. He's one normal lightning away from having another bar. Add his trait to the mix, and you can't win a match when he has meter and you're low on life.

 

[chief713]

Don't get me wrong, I have beaten pretty good GL players and beat them badly. I've gotten flawless victories against solid players. However, that's simply getting lucky. They guessed wrong every time. People make it seem like you can block/dash a couple chain guns and the match is over. It's just not the case. GL has solid damage and solid resets. Sure, you CAN block his resets. And he CAN guess right against us. We can not even begin to fight the match until we are on top of him. He's getting at least chip damage the entire time.

With trait + meter, he can do nothing but chain gun for quite a while and we can do absolutely nothing about it. We are eating chip and getting pushed back. There is no counter. You can block/dash, but you're going right back out. All the GL player has to do is be patient and play keep away. He can use rockets at full screen if we aren't at level 3 until we get into chain gun range. He can mix up his tactics. Remember, we HAVE to get in on him. He knows we're coming, and we have limited options. Block/dash into jump in, command grab, or DP is all we have. If we get in, GL players should not be using wake up attacks. They should back dash or jump. As we all know, double punch doesn't do shit for damage. It takes 5 double punches to do the damage of a standard BnB combo. It doesn't mean jack. Eat the DPs and avoid the combos and command grabs.

All the while, he's building more meter.

The match can go like that, which is why it isn't horrible for GL, but more often than not, it goes the other way for Bane. You can push block minigun which is really useful so you don't get pushed back as far. Also makes GL waste his trait/meter. And them guessing wrong every time isn't you getting lucky; it's GL having a severe lack of options when Bane gets in close. Like you said, they'd rather eat the DP so they backdash or jump. Well, when you decide to do b.23 that one time, they eat 35%+.

Minigun is all he has that's super threatening in the neutral IMO. MB missile is annoying but not a big problem. Other than that, I think we can handle his other stuff fairly easily.

 

[big_aug]

The match can go like that, which is why it isn't horrible for GL, but more often than not, it goes the other way for Bane. You can push block minigun which is really useful so you don't get pushed back as far. Also makes GL waste his trait/meter. And them guessing wrong every time isn't you getting lucky; it's GL having a severe lack of options when Bane gets in close. Like you said, they'd rather eat the DP so they backdash or jump. Well, when you decide to do b.23 that one time, they eat 35%+.

Minigun is all he has that's super threatening in the neutral IMO. MB missile is annoying but not a big problem. Other than that, I think we can handle his other stuff fairly easily.

It is getting lucky. B23 doesn't catch jumps or back dashes. You should not jump back against Bane. He can't do anything but a well timed DP to stop a jump forward. If you delay to catch a wake up special, like you have to do for GL, the opponent can jump over you. You b23 and they jump forward, they are out. You command grab and they jump, they are out. You do anything other than block and they MB b3, they full combo.

So we spend meter to push block the chain gun. Fair trade for me if I'm playing GL. I've got a full screen to work with and I'm getting meter from Bane just so he doesn't get pushed out? Sweet. I'll just do another one. And then another. And I'm still building more meter. And I still have trait. And I'm getting chip damage.

GL's b1 is an insane whiff punisher as well.

I don't think Bane wins this, but maybe I'm just awful and I don't know how to analyze a character's tools vs another character.

 

[chief713]

It is getting lucky. B23 doesn't catch jumps or back dashes. You should not jump back against Bane. He can't do anything but a well timed DP to stop a jump forward. If you delay to catch a wake up special, like you have to do for GL, the opponent can jump over you. You b23 and they jump forward, they are out. You command grab and they jump, they are out. You do anything other than block and they MB b3, they full combo.

So we spend meter to push block the chain gun. Fair trade for me if I'm playing GL. I've got a full screen to work with and I'm getting meter from Bane just so he doesn't get pushed out? Sweet. I'll just do another one. And then another. And I'm still building more meter. And I still have trait. And I'm getting chip damage.

GL's b1 is an insane whiff punisher as well.

I don't think Bane wins this, but maybe I'm just awful and I don't know how to analyze a character's tools vs another character.

Meaty b.23 will catch jumps. That's the mixup. If you delay to beat wakeups with armor like you mentioned, then they can jump out. But if you do meaty b.23 instead, they get hit. If they're crutching on jump, though, you can do d.2 on their wakeup. Covers backdash too and cancelling into specials can make it safe (with charge/DP) or you can get a nearly free command grab. d.1 stops jumps as well and on hit, frame traps into b.23 or can cancel into DP for the low/overhead. If you crossup splash, MB b/f.3 will whiff. I know you don't wanna eat lift for 50% AND get pushed out, but you really have to condition your opponents on wakeup. You can't always just do the stuff that's relatively safe. Sometimes you have to go on a limb with your reads or you become predictable, especially in a MU like this where Bane can't give up too much ground because it's difficult for him to make it up.

What you have to remember is that in those situations, GL will almost always be more afraid. If he guesses right, he gets out or, worst case, you eat full combo. Unless you had low HP, you're alive after that with another chance. But from his end, he's constantly having to guess and he's on edge because he's right where you want him. If GL is the one making you feel uncomfortable on a KD, then you have to condition them more and/or shut down the options that they crutch on to show them that you know about it and you're not having that shit.

EDIT: I'm pretty sure you can time DP such that it'll beat lift and catch jumps/backdashes. I'll try to remember to check it out when I get home but I'm almost sure.

 

[Doombawkz]

I know d.2xxBP cancel on their wake-up will stuff a lot of options but you have to 0-point it precisely otherwise they will beat it with lift. I think someone, somewhere, posted a video of how to do a dirty d.2 set-up out of charge.

 

[big_aug]

I just don't get how you can say GL is 6-4 and Raven somehow beats us. If GL is a 6-4, then so is Raven. She has the exact same problems as GL, but she doesn't have anything like chain gun. She doesn't even have MB rocket to use on our charge. She doesn't have b1. She doesn't have the easy resets. Her zoning is easily blocked and dashed in the same way GL's can be.

I guess I don't get it. I can see why GL would be 6-4, but I don't see how Raven beats us if that's the case.

 

[Doombawkz]

I just don't get how you can say GL is 6-4 and Raven somehow beats us. If GL is a 6-4, then so is Raven. She has the exact same problems as GL, but she doesn't have anything like chain gun. She doesn't even have MB rocket to use on our charge. She doesn't have b1. She doesn't have the easy resets. Her zoning is easily blocked and dashed in the same way GL's can be.

I guess I don't get it. I can see why GL would be 6-4, but I don't see how Raven beats us if that's the case.

I never said Raven beats us, I said its a 5-5. I also asked Blind man to verify, which he did.
As far as GL goes, I've changed my stance from "6-4" to "We don't lose as badly as you say" as in it is no worse than a 4-6 and it probably closer to a 5-5 but I'm not going to put absolute faith in my numbers.

As far as Raven goes, she has better mobility and I think better damage naturally. She also shuts us down from jumping at a much further distance. If GL is a mid-screen god, Raven is a mid-far god. Also unlike GL, she has her f.2(?) which is a quick 2-hit mid which beats out literally everything it touches. When we go into cooldown, we can run from GL and just duck the rockets while Raven has access to trait pillars and the like.