Auto-Building Meter - A Step Backwards?

[kabelfritz]

i think mk11 has many interesting new mechanics, but the new meter-building seems like a questionable one to me.

im fine with having one offensive and one defensive bar. the usages seem to be well-thought in mk11 (like off. meter for juggles and def. meter for wakeups).

the crucial question is the way you build the meter:

i always thought meter building went the wrong way in mk: gain by hitting on block and getting hit. basically meter build was a reward for playing badly. i'm glad thats gone.

BUT: is auto-refill over time really something that makes meter-building better on every level of play or is it just a casual friendly-measure?

i would have prefered to gain meter for successful offensive (hit) or defensive (block) moves.

for now i cant really see the benefits of auto-load meter vs meter as reward for certain action. it looks like it would take an important tactical aspect of the game away. surely new tactics are gonna be build around the new mechanics, like extra-long juggles or turtling, but i dont feel they can get as deep as the alternative.

thoughts?

 

[Braindead]

Stamina in MKX regenerated over time, they have the same idea here.

Zoning looks to considerable part of the matches in MK11 and having a self-regenrating meter will avoid traditional zoning issues like strong Zoners constantly having meter to do whatever while characters who get zoned will struggle in that regard.

It's a bold change and I'm interested in seeing how it plays out.

 

[kabelfritz]

Stamina in MKX regenerated over time, they have the same idea here.

Zoning looks to considerable part of the matches in MK11 and having a self-regenrating meter will avoid traditional zoning issues like strong Zoners constantly having meter to do whatever while characters who get zoned will struggle in that regard.

It's a bold change and I'm interested in seeing how it plays out.

interesting view, but that issue would also be covered if you gain meter on hit, not on block.

 

[M.D.]

Kung lao-ish characters hitting one string in my block and gaining one bar - gone

Mileena/Kitana zoning and by the time I crouch walk to them, they already have xray - gone

Being zoned without meter and losing 30% in chip and mistakes to get one bar so I can get in - gone

Being cornered by grandmaster crap and no meter to get out so i have to take 50 mixups - gone

I absolutely love this new system.

 

[kabelfritz]

Kung lao-ish characters hitting one string in my block and gaining one bar - gone

Mileena/Kitana zoning and by the time I crouch walk to them, they already have xray - gone

Being zoned without meter and losing 30% in chip and mistakes to get one bar so I can get in - gone

Being cornered by grandmaster crap and no meter to get out so i have to take 50 mixups - gone

I absolutely love this new system.

i share your criticism but i dont know if auto-build is the right solution.

 

[RYX]

i think it's meant as a workaround to how instant-air projectiles and people who can cancel their specials a lot could just always have meter while characters who had to be more conservative often ended up meter starved unless they could just blockchip you and get their bar up

I actually think it's a neat idea, I'm curious to see how it plays out

 

[Braindead]

I hope another aspect of this would be character-specific meter regeneration time. Would be very useful in balancing purposes imo. But last night it looked like a universal time

 

[CrazyFingers]

The problem with previous systems of meterbuild in MK games is that you couldnt really do it any other way or it would get weird and gross. Plus this removes the every present "character is garbage without meter" archetype that NRS seemed to get themselves into a lot in their games, MK9 Quan, Killer LF in MKX, stuff like that. Here every character is on an even playing field with their resources and the problem of zoners building meter while rush down characters just dont get to is completely nullified. Use too much meter in a short amount of time you might risk getting knocked down and not being able to use wakeup attacks which means using the weaker rolls, which are beaten by meaty grab or just sitting and waiting slightly. The system is clearly super thought out.

 

[Crimea]

It looks like you need a lot more meter in this game. Scorpion can't combo of his spear without enhancing it

 

[Wetdoba]

Love all the new universals. Great way to let the characters be crazy and unique while still be balanced against each other to a certain level at a minimum. NRS finally made a fighting game with real rules this time

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

I think it's a great idea!

No more letting kabal build meter for free with iagb's while you crouch walk in just to get flash parried.

 

[John Grizzly]

interesting view, but that issue would also be covered if you gain meter on hit, not on block.

How is this a solution, though? You're saying you want someone landing a 50% combo in the corner and ALSO gaining meter in the process, while the dude getting cooked in the corner gets nothing? This seems like a bad idea. There has to be a way for someone on defense to have a chance to make a comeback. What's the point of even taking meter away during a combo if you're just going to regenerate it during a combo anyway?

 

[kabelfritz]

How is this a solution, though? You're saying you want someone landing a 50% combo in the corner and ALSO gaining meter in the process, while the dude getting cooked in the corner gets nothing? This seems like a bad idea. There has to be a way for someone on defense to have a chance to make a comeback. What's the point of even taking meter away during a combo if you're just going to regenerate it during a combo anyway?

matches with huge skill gap would be over quicker - no more mario kart kombat. but its an excellent point that it would be quite gross to gain meter while you spend it.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

If you played Bane at all in Injustice 2, you’d be psyched

 

[John Grizzly]

matches with huge skill gap would be over quicker - no more mario kart kombat. but its an excellent point that it would be quite gross to gain meter while you spend it.

Yeah, I don't want matches to be over when someone gets the first launch. Let's let this meter thing play out before we start suggesting changes. I'm interested to hear what the players (i.e. Sonic, Rewind etc.) thought about it.

 

[kabelfritz]

Yeah, I don't want matches to be over when someone gets the first launch. Let's let this meter thing play out before we start suggesting changes. I'm interested to hear what the players (i.e. Sonic, Rewind etc.) thought about it.

im not bashing it - i really made this thread with an open mind. it might as well be the best possible solution.

 

[kcd117]

If you play a matchup like Donatello vs Starfire you'll know why this is a good idea.

 

[FattyNipples]

I agree with you, it feels like rewards you no matter what and also worries me that zoners can just enhance once or twice and keep you at distance and wait to refill their meter.

So far there are some mechanics that looks off to me, i hope i'm wrong and it's actually fun to play.

 

[Lokheit]

As someone who managed to calculate the meter gain formulas from MKX (it's a similar formula than for damage scaling only that the damage scaling factor of each hit is used twice, meaning that combos with few hits and X damage reward more meter to the opponent than combos with the same damage but more hits, not to mention zoning and pressure strings being huge here), I have to say I prefer this method a lot more, the previous one rewarded certain playstyles a lot, this time around it's more balanced.

Also no need to force plays to make the first hit for the extra bar!

 

[Marlow]

I agree with you, it feels like rewards you no matter what and also worries me that zoners can just enhance once or twice and keep you at distance and wait to refill their meter.

So far there are some mechanics that looks off to me, i hope i'm wrong and it's actually fun to play.

I think the new auto-building system actually hurts zoners more than it helps. In a game like Injustice 2, a good zoner could simply stay full screen and build 2-3 bars of meter while the opponent struggles to get in. The meter build actually mattered more than the damage, because more meter lead to more potential damage and escapes later on.

The change also means that the player trying to work their way in will be on equal footing meterwise once they do get in, so if they do get in they'll have the resources to properly punish zoning.

 

[portent]

Let me remind everyone that SF3 3rd strike has a unique meter building system as well. You can whiff normals in order to build meter. While this is different in that you must actively press buttons to build meter, it works similarly in that you have to wait a period of time before your meter based moves are available to you again. Again, I realize that in 3s it's active as opposed to passively waiting as in MK11.

Let me also remind everyone how universally loved 3s is. It's meter building mechanic may be flawed, but its equal across the board in terms of how you can quickly and efficiently re-build meter by whiffing normals. Let's hope that this forward thinking for MK11 helps us catch lightning in a bottle. MK9 was SO CLOSE to that, but it needed one more balance patch and the removal of the input bug and meter drain glitch.

This IS NOT, however, the first time this mechanic has been introduced. There is a cancelled game, called Rising Thunder, which uses a similar timing based/cooldown mechanic for special moves and enhanced moves.

 

[Lokheit]

Let me remind everyone that SF3 3rd strike has a unique meter building system as well. You can whiff normals in order to build meter. While this is different in that you must actively press buttons to build meter, it works similarly in that you have to wait a period of time before your meter based moves are available to you again. Again, I realize that in 3s it's active as opposed to passively waiting as in MK11.

Let me also remind everyone how universally loved 3s is. It's meter building mechanic may be flawed, but its equal across the board in terms of how you can quickly and efficiently re-build meter by whiffing normals. Let's hope that this forward thinking for MK11 helps us catch lightning in a bottle. MK9 was SO CLOSE to that, but it needed one more balance patch and the removal of the input bug and meter drain glitch.

This IS NOT, however, the first time this mechanic has been introduced. There is a cancelled game, called Rising Thunder, which uses a similar timing based/cooldown mechanic for special moves and enhanced moves.

This also brings another point. Whiffing attacks (normals in SF, specials in MKX) to build meter always looks off, like... why is that guy hitting the air? This way there is no need to act weird.

 

[colby4898]

Being cornered by grandmaster crap and no meter to get out so i have to take 50 mixups - gone

Ice clone - gone

 

[kabelfritz]

This also brings another point. Whiffing attacks (normals in SF, specials in MKX) to build meter always looks off, like... why is that guy hitting the air? This way there is no need to act weird.

i always wished everyone had a quick taunt move to build a tiny bit of meter

 

[Lokheit]

Ice clone - gone

M.D. has had so many nightmares with the klone he still plans for it even when it's no longer in the game