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Are there really 7-3s in this game?

NothingPersonal

Are you not entertained!?
Shao vs Scorpion feels bad. Like REAL bad. I know real bad, I mastered the T.hawk vs Blanka match in SF4, I might be the most experienced in the world in that match, and its legit 8-2.

Shao vs Scorpion feels almost close to that. Scorpion can walk back all day and threaten anything/everything and there's nothing Shao can do to dissuade him from doing it.
Spear and spear tornados are punishable on block by shoulder charge from full charge distance. Spear buff is punishable on reaction by full screen hammer leap. Wake-up teleport is checked by fullscreen spear toss. I don't struggle myself. When I lose I only feel outplayed by the player and not the character. Also Shao has more range and does about the same damage. I feel like it's a fair m-u at this point.
 
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Elias6999

Mournful Master
Jade doesn't have 7-3s but her 6-4s are damn hard. Scorpion can literally punish me for pressing a button that does not connect before his teleport comes out.
She also struggles with Sonya at long and short range bc her drone drop negates glow lol. She can compete with her in sweep distance footsies though.
 

GLoRToR

Positive Poster!
She also struggles with Sonya at long and short range bc her drone drop negates glow lol. She can compete with her in sweep distance footsies though.
Her d4 is a huge leverage in that matchup. It's definitely a 6-4 too. If they fix Drone Drop not being immune to Glow it will be a 5-5
 

NothingPersonal

Are you not entertained!?
I want to be clear. Sonya, Geras, Erron to some extent may have 6-4's across the board simply because of their base move sets. Some may have 7-3's, I can't tell since I only play Shao Kahn, but these three imo have potential for 7-3's.
 

Olcadan13

mkx apologist
Shao vs Scorpion feels bad. Like REAL bad. I know real bad, I mastered the T.hawk vs Blanka match in SF4, I might be the most experienced in the world in that match, and its legit 8-2.

Shao vs Scorpion feels almost close to that. Scorpion can walk back all day and threaten anything/everything and there's nothing Shao can do to dissuade him from doing it.
how do i sad react
 

GLoRToR

Positive Poster!
Shao vs Scorpion feels bad. Like REAL bad. I know real bad, I mastered the T.hawk vs Blanka match in SF4, I might be the most experienced in the world in that match, and its legit 8-2.

Shao vs Scorpion feels almost close to that. Scorpion can walk back all day and threaten anything/everything and there's nothing Shao can do to dissuade him from doing it.
Odd. Jade vs Scorpion is very similar.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
since flawless blocking is a universal mechanic, how big of a difference could it make? I mean hypothetically if we know that Erron has two gaps that can be flawless blocked by any character, does it really change the fundamental match up between two characters toolsets? I’m truly curious, is this a stupid question?
It's universal, but the gaps are not. So based on which strings you can flawless block hits of, and how important those specific strings are to a particular character's meta, it could have pretty different effects depending on what the MU is.

If it's in a character's main safe midrange string, for example, that has to the potential to alter a MU a great deal.
 

Osagri

Fear the blade of Osh-Tekk
7-3 sounds really drastic. even old games like third strike barely have such bad matchups. top players in third strike consider hugo-chunli a 8-2 and it feels impossible to win as hugo.
Sun god/bloody god vs grand master, dvorah vs grand master, alien vs grand master. Few MUs I personally felt were 7/3. Got better after the patch that made alien (and dvorah?) tail not to go through clone
 

LawAbidingCitizen

Bomb Setups & Ball Rolls(Mileena/Cyrax)
Not sure about numbers since it's week 3-4
Kotal has a definite possibility of being 3-7 vs Geras, Erron, Sonya, Scorpion and maybe Sub.
But honestly not sure yet. Played a billion Scorpions but they are making constant mistakes and not utilizing Flawless Block or punishing everything they should.
 

LawAbidingCitizen

Bomb Setups & Ball Rolls(Mileena/Cyrax)
since flawless blocking is a universal mechanic, how big of a difference could it make? I mean hypothetically if we know that Erron has two gaps that can be flawless blocked by any character, does it really change the fundamental match up between two characters toolsets? I’m truly curious, is this a stupid question?
Flawless Block makes a monumental difference. Errons F32 for example has gap and if you know the timing you can block wether they stagger F3 or finish F32 so either way you punish it when it comes out by knowing the timing. If they stagger you are safe since you planned on blocking then too. The second hit comes out late enough to see if you need to U2/U3.
I believe flawless block can change a bad matchup into a winning one. Kabal with zero gaps vs Scarlet with many will determine tiers later on down the road.
 

DixieFlatline78

Everyone Has A Path
Most likely, but there isnt really anything wrong with that tbh. Character specialists will lab their bad matchups or counterpick them.

Someone said Liu vs Kotal and I'd be inclined to agree. It's not a fun matchup. You have to run perfect set play after you get that first miracle hit. I imagine theres some ancient tech for this matchup that'll help even the odds.
 
If you aren't playing a consistent training partners in a match up, it is very difficult to call any numbers.

Match ups change drastically when you learn specific tools. No one here so far has exhausted a match up in enough detail. If you lose to only scorpion in ranked it still doesn't mean much right now because you are more focused on winning then trying to find you options. If we move to more specific match ups we could all get better, instead of just saying geras blanket 6 4 the cast.

Example.
Geras IW vs Johnny
In neutral, Johnny has better range advancing strings and can initiate exchanges.
His shadow kick can punish sand pit on block.
At mid range geras has to guess if Johnny is throwing a projectile.
Has better wave dashing to control space.

Up close
Johnny has a lot of safe strings that Geras D1 can't capitalize on.
Geras f21 whiffs on Johnny and can be full combo punished with f3.
Johnny can dash under punish body splashes and his anti air game in better since he can connect at several ranges.

Geras damage ratio is higher than Johnny if he can land a hit.
Geras momentum is better with his 50 50s even if they require risk.
Geras fatal blow changes neutral heavily.
Johnny fatal blow cancels also change up close game heavily.

No idea on the numbers still lol
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
It's universal, but the gaps are not. So based on which strings you can flawless block hits of, and how important those specific strings are to a particular character's meta, it could have pretty different effects depending on what the MU is.

If it's in a character's main safe midrange string, for example, that has to the potential to alter a MU a great deal.
You are assuming the low and mid tier characters have safe, mid-range strings to begin with. They are generally the characters with unsafe strings that have gaps. For example, Frost's b+2,2, Raiden's b+3,1, and Shao Kahn's f+3,4 have a gap between the first and second hit that is long enough to flawless block. On the other hand, Jacqui has a safe, 9 frame, mid-hitting, cancelable (with special moves as well as stance switch) normal attack that can be hit-confirmed into combos anywhere on the screen. If you gave Jacqui's f+3,1 to any of the currently perceived low tier characters, they would at least become mid tier characters.

I agree that 7:3 match ups are too early to call but the top tier characters are not. Historically speaking, NRS does not create deep fighting games. The characters that were winning in the second month of Mortal Kombat X as well as Injustice 2 would have been the characters that would have won forever if the games had not been patched. Believing that flawless blocking will all of a sudden catapult a character like D'Vorah to mid tier and allow her to compete with Geras and Erron Black is a delusion.
 

Name v.5.0

Iowa's Finest.
If you aren't playing a consistent training partners in a match up, it is very difficult to call any numbers.

Match ups change drastically when you learn specific tools. No one here so far has exhausted a match up in enough detail. If you lose to only scorpion in ranked it still doesn't mean much right now because you are more focused on winning then trying to find you options. If we move to more specific match ups we could all get better, instead of just saying geras blanket 6 4 the cast.

Example.
Geras IW vs Johnny
In neutral, Johnny has better range advancing strings and can initiate exchanges.
His shadow kick can punish sand pit on block.
At mid range geras has to guess if Johnny is throwing a projectile.
Has better wave dashing to control space.

Up close
Johnny has a lot of safe strings that Geras D1 can't capitalize on.
Geras f21 whiffs on Johnny and can be full combo punished with f3.
Johnny can dash under punish body splashes and his anti air game in better since he can connect at several ranges.

Geras damage ratio is higher than Johnny if he can land a hit.
Geras momentum is better with his 50 50s even if they require risk.
Geras fatal blow changes neutral heavily.
Johnny fatal blow cancels also change up close game heavily.

No idea on the numbers still lol

This is the one I came here for. I play both characters and your breakdown is really accurate. The only way Geras can win is by using his 50/50s and KBs. The problem is it's hard for him to even start. The entire match is about reads and it's still in Cage's favor because he can punish hard if Geras guesses wrong. This match is easily a 6-4 for Cage, but I'd be willing to bet it's 7-3 at the highest levels.
 

Krankk

Smoke & Noob & Rain
During the Summit there was a match between aFoxyGrandpa and Waz. Foxy played Cassie, Waz Noob Saibot. The commentators were talking about how Ketchup, Gross, Waz and another pro player said that the match up is a 7-3 for Cassie. The match looked very bad for Waz. After 2 devastating losses he switched characters from Noob Saibot to Jade.
 

CliffP

Noob
ranked is shit and doesn't represent skill. the leaderboard is all over the place and makes no sense.
You can think that sure, but it’s still relevant to what SwiftEagle is arguing.

I’m curious who the caliber of players they’re facing as well as their relative level of play. Because the observations they made are interesting.

This leaderboard is far better than MKX. It rewards cerebral play due to the 3/5 nature and idk about y’all but I haven’t encountered a single lesser opponent except in those periods that I’ve leveled up beyond my grouping on the leaderboards.

Whereas in MKX I had like a 150 win streak because matchmaking was busted in terms of fairness. Most I’ve managed in a row here is 8, and 29 out of 30 matchings feel fair.
 
7-3's that we can talk about right now will probably stem from hitbox issues.

For example, I know that a majority of Johnny Cage's tools cannot be used on female characters because they whiff while they are blocking.