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An honest look at Scarecrow

DubiousShenron

DubiousShenron

Beware my power.
Espio said:
Whether Scarecrow's teleport sucks or not, most people with a zoning game cannot reliably keep him out. If you shoot air projectiles you better shoot your one or two before he is in striking distance with his vastly superior ground and air range. The only real zoner struggle should be Batman maybe Deadshot and maybe Darkseid but Blue Beetle, Cyborg, Harley Quinn, Fate among the majority of zoning game characters are not on the list. You walk, block and duck a little bit and you can start your game.
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Plus scarecrow should win the midrange vs every zoner. Don't know why scarecrow players need to get "in" to win. Close range isn't where he's strongest
 
AA25Mamba

AA25Mamba

Batman, Scarecrow, Bane
lol MD, I don't get you. You like to discount anything Crow can do and give merit to zoning when it doesn't deserve it.

You're talking about Fate's projectiles like they lock Crow down from everywhere. What you're discounting is that Scarecrow straight up ducks them at the range he excels in. It's not very difficult to walk Fate into the corner and start ducking his magic shots for free. Hell, in the last few days I've been able to get off a F1 into full combo in the range that they don't connect.

Fate then throws out orbs, well, you can Fearnado those and continue the walkdown.

Fate will MBF3 to try and sneak in an advancing bounce. Or throw out the string where he teleports into overhead. Both are pretty easy to read and lead to punishing or pressure.

You knock Fate down and he wants to use his wakeup? A MB F or B3 of Crows will still hit at the right range (which is up to you to know).

Dubious has a good point. You don't need to get "in" in the traditional sense with Crow. Deadshot is more problematic because of the recovery of his projectiles.

Hell, I didn't even mention the advantages of jumping a projectile and using his great J2.

A lot of theory fighting in this post, but speaking from experience in matches.
 
Toonstrack

Toonstrack

Noob
Exactly. Its very difficult to keep him out, even if you succeed in knocking him down a few times, its very much a zoning challenge for the zoners themselves. Every shot they take is a chance of letting him get in, and they have to calculate that risk. Scarecrow battles can be quite a mind game.
 
Temetias

Temetias

"MKX kid"
DubiousShenron said:
Plus scarecrow should win the midrange vs every zoner. Don't know why scarecrow players need to get "in" to win. Close range isn't where he's strongest
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It actually is.

I don't agree with Scarecrow losing too badly to zoning or him being in any need of buffs but most of the things you've said are just wrong. Tele isn't a tool you use for punishing. F2 doesn't go half screen, MB F3 isn't really that good vs zoners since you get nothing from it from max distance and jip2 isn't really a similar anti-zoning tool like Catwoman's.

You're not wrong with crow being good. You're just pointing out the wrong things imo. Crow does well against most zoners because his close up game is good and his trait is a full screen punisher. He needs to be patient to get in or build trait but once he gets in he usually stays in.
 
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DubiousShenron

DubiousShenron

Beware my power.
AA25Mamba said:
lol MD, I don't get you. You like to discount anything Crow can do and give merit to zoning when it doesn't deserve it.

You're talking about Fate's projectiles like they lock Crow down from everywhere. What you're discounting is that Scarecrow straight up ducks them at the range he excels in. It's not very difficult to walk Fate into the corner and start ducking his magic shots for free. Hell, in the last few days I've been able to get off a F1 into full combo in the range that they don't connect.

Fate then throws out orbs, well, you can Fearnado those and continue the walkdown.

Fate will MBF3 to try and sneak in an advancing bounce. Or throw out the string where he teleports into overhead. Both are pretty easy to read and lead to punishing or pressure.

You knock Fate down and he wants to use his wakeup? A MB F or B3 of Crows will still hit at the right range (which is up to you to know).

Dubious has a good point. You don't need to get "in" in the traditional sense with Crow. Deadshot is more problematic because of the recovery of his projectiles.

Hell, I didn't even mention the advantages of jumping a projectile and using his great J2.

A lot of theory fighting in this post, but speaking from experience in matches.
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The only character scarecrow struggles against in terms of being zoned out should be deadshot and nobody else and that's a result of deadshots zoning being too good in terms of recovery and hit advantage, not scarecrows inadequacies..
 
Sultan

Sultan

Kitana, Scorpion
DubiousShenron said:
People still thinking scarecrow struggles with zoning. Insane range on j2. Insane range on f2, just block one fireball and it's your turn to do f2, he also low profiles everything, including 99% of Doctor Fate fireballs. Also has a move that destroys projectiles. Mb f3 to armor through projectiles for combo and a freaking teleport. Oh also a full screen combo special that catches fireballs.

Seriously the crying needs to stop. Getting zoned out with scarecrow is a player problem not a character one, 95% of people seem to make that mistake...

Git gud.

Edit: no character that wins a major tournament gets zoned out too badly, just stop
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Fate's one of the only zoners he does well against. He struggles A LOT vs MOST zoning characters - you can't use one example that he does well against to support your argument. Look at the rest of the cast.

As nice as those tools sound in theory, they don't cut it vs Batman, Deadshot and Green Arrow. You will never successfully teleport... db2 only delays the inevitable... lol f2... f1 will not get you out of dodge. Crouch walking, J2, and a dream are your only realistic options vs those 3. Even MB.Roll is suicide half the time.

Most people aren't saying he auto-losses vs zoning. Most of us are saying he struggles vs zoning characters in general. Batman, Deadshot, G.A., Darkseid, Harley and Red Hood are all (arguably) disadvantaged MUs purely because of how well they can keep him out - and most of those characters aren't committed zoning characters, which says a lot.

Edit: snakeeyez won that exact same tourney with 'gief. just stop.

Scarecrow's a great character - pretending that he handles zoning easily is a bill.
 
AA25Mamba

AA25Mamba

Batman, Scarecrow, Bane
DubiousShenron said:
The only character scarecrow struggles against in terms of being zoned out should be deadshot and nobody else and that's a result of deadshots zoning being too good in terms of recovery and hit advantage, not scarecrows inadequacies..
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I disagree. He struggles against Deadshot for sure. But he also struggles against Green Arrow and Cyborg. Both of those characters can take away jumping over projectiles and using J2. Arrow's arrows are fast enough to take away a lot of options, and Cyborg's trait can be a nightmare. Your only options against them are really walking your way in hopefully.

Plus Arrow's wakeups are a bit of a problem.
 
AA25Mamba

AA25Mamba

Batman, Scarecrow, Bane
I don't visit many other character's sub-forums, but Scarecrow seems to be very divisive. There are two primary camps that want to downplay or act like he's top tier, respectively.

Realistically (and things will change with length of release and patches), I don't think Crow is on either end of the spectrum, and that's okay. He doesn't have many matchups that are unwinnable, and he doesn't have many matchups that are largely in his favor.

Crow has the tools to beat a lot of the cast, it just comes down to how you play him. Maybe that's too much of a reserved take on him, but whatever.
 
Juggs

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
Premium Supporter
AA25Mamba said:
I don't visit many other character's sub-forums, but Scarecrow seems to be very divisive. There are two primary camps that want to downplay or act like he's top tier, respectively.

Realistically (and things will change with length of release and patches), I don't think Crow is on either end of the spectrum, and that's okay. He doesn't have many matchups that are unwinnable, and he doesn't have many matchups that are largely in his favor.

Crow has the tools to beat a lot of the cast, it just comes down to how you play him. Maybe that's too much of a reserved take on him, but whatever.
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Scarecrow is just inside the top 10, imo.
 
TheJaquio

TheJaquio

Noob
AA25Mamba said:
I don't visit many other character's sub-forums, but Scarecrow seems to be very divisive. There are two primary camps that want to downplay or act like he's top tier, respectively.

Realistically (and things will change with length of release and patches), I don't think Crow is on either end of the spectrum, and that's okay. He doesn't have many matchups that are unwinnable, and he doesn't have many matchups that are largely in his favor.

Crow has the tools to beat a lot of the cast, it just comes down to how you play him. Maybe that's too much of a reserved take on him, but whatever.
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I agree with this. He is definitely not bad or low, but in a game with Adam, Superman, Batman, Atrocitus, Deadshot, etc, saying he is top tier seems ridiculous to me. I'd put him just outside of the top ten, but an argument could be made for him being around tenth.
 
AA25Mamba

AA25Mamba

Batman, Scarecrow, Bane
TheJaquio said:
I agree with this. He is definitely not bad or low, but in a game with Adam, Superman, Batman, Atrocitus, Deadshot, etc, saying he is top tier seems ridiculous to me. I'd put him just outside of the top ten, but an argument could be made for him being around tenth.
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As with you, the only reason I don't put him in top 5 or so forth is because the other characters that are currently there are cemented there for their insane options or their ease of use.

One thing that keeps Crow from being higher, in my mind at least, is that he is more difficult to use and execute well than those you mentioned.
 
AA25Mamba

AA25Mamba

Batman, Scarecrow, Bane
Dankster Morgan said:
Just inside top ten sounds legit. Worse than Adam, Aquaman, Batman, Atrocitus, Catwoman, Superman, Deadshot, could float anywhere from 8-10 imo
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A good placement.

However, do any of use really believe that Scarecrow can't beat any of the characters above them?
 
AA25Mamba

AA25Mamba

Batman, Scarecrow, Bane
Dankster Morgan said:
I think he could and actually did already.
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The encouraging sign from CEO was that Whiteboi didn't get first with some gimmick or broken tech that'll be patched out. He did it from great play and matchup knowledge. I'll be surprised if we don't see Scarecrow placing in future events.
 
Juggs

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
Premium Supporter
AA25Mamba said:
A good placement.

However, do any of use really believe that Scarecrow can't beat any of the characters above them?
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Yes he can, but overall, based on toolsets and MU's, these characters are better. There's several characters that aren't even top 15 that do well against some of the top tiers. It's all about matchups.
 
DubiousShenron

DubiousShenron

Beware my power.
@Sultan @AA25Mamba

You both poise good points about scarecrow vs zoning and I certainly respect your ideas. Sorry for jumping out of the woodwork and ambushing the blatant downplayers but it gets really old.

I'd like to play you guys at some point so I can get some real, constructive scarecrow experience.

Also thank you for offering thoughtful honest discussion. God knows that rarely ever happens here
 
DubiousShenron

DubiousShenron

Beware my power.
Temetias said:
It actually is.

I don't agree with Scarecrow losing too badly to zoning or him being in any need of buffs but most of the things you've said are just wrong. Tele isn't a tool you use for punishing. F2 doesn't go half screen, MB F3 isn't really that good vs zoners since you get nothing from it from max distance and jip2 isn't really a similar anti-zoning tool like Catwoman's.

You're not wrong with crow being good. You're just pointing out the wrong things imo. Crow does well against most zoners because his close up game is good and his trait is a full screen punisher. He needs to be patient to get in or build trait but once he gets in he usually stays in.
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But then I read something like this. I swear if any of these people were my kids I'd take them out back and beat them with a rubber hose.

Disrespectful downplaying = average tym user
 
AA25Mamba

AA25Mamba

Batman, Scarecrow, Bane
="DubiousShenron, post: 2306037, member: 30666"]@Sultan @AA25Mamba

You both poise good points about scarecrow vs zoning and I certainly respect your ideas. Sorry for jumping out of the woodwork and ambushing the blatant downplayers but it gets really old.

I'd like to play you guys at some point so I can get some real, constructive scarecrow experience.

Also thank you for offering thoughtful honest discussion. God knows that rarely ever happens here
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It's perfectly fine. All opinions have merit to those saying them, it's just important to remember perspective.

Are you on Xbox?
 
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