Question Am I alone in finding him really boring?

[Amadeous]

It's just adorable that every time I read a post with blatant or thinly veiled negative remarks in it, the person has almost inevitably only just signed up on this site. Please understand that you are on a website that fosters a competitive community and players with a competitive mindset. The vast majority of us play for fun, but when doing so, we play to the best of our ability.

If you're playing in a way that purposefully handicaps you from using the strongest possible strategies, then you are NOT playing to win, even if you think you are. While you may even believe that you are doing this in the name of things like "not being cheap," you're not doing anyone any favors - particularly yourself. Push yourself! Push other players! Learning, improving, and playing these games at the highest level is far more fun than playing a "fake" version of the game shackled by some false notion of "honor" or whatever else. Let the scrubs (those players with no desire to improve) complain about "spam" or "cheapness." Here, we're all trying to have fun through self improvement.

I have been a zoner my entire life. I was playing Guile when I was 10 years old, and I'm still playing Guile now at over 30. I play a zoning MVC team. I play Peacock in Skullgirls. Etc etc. Deathstroke is a very entertaining zoning character thanks to the versatility of his up-close game and the availability of the universal armor options in this game.

You should pick up blazblue. That game has amazing zoning with Rachel, Lambda, mu, and Arakune to some extent.
Zoning is the most entertaining playstyle in my opinion, it's why I picked up Deathstroke and it's why I will stay with Deathstroke.

With that being said I also like mixup characters, Harley is looking nice.

 

[Skkra]

Zoning is the most entertaining playstyle in my opinion, it's why I picked up Deathstroke and it's why I will stay with Deathstroke.

Zoning fits my personal approach to 2D fighting games. I enjoy patient, thoughtful zoning.

I do play all styles of character across multiple games though. In Tekken, I play complete rushdown. In SF4, my main is Guile but I also love THawk and Guy. I play Valentine in Skullgirls and have a rushdown/lockdown team in MVC3.

It goes without saying, but playing several different styles gives you much better insight into how to deal with those styles when you're facing them.

 

[xWEBSx]

You're not going to change the fact that Slade is a complete groaner. You just know that when you pick him, the other guy is thinking "FFS..." not because he's scared of how elite you are, but because he knows this game is going to be a slog win or lose .

True story. I don't mind facing ANY character in this game other than DS.. And not because I can't win, but because the zoning is sooooo damn boring. It brings a fast and brutal fighter to a screeching halt..

I've said it once, I'll say it a million times- Deathstroke's form of multiple hitting projectiles DOES NOT FIT IN THIS GAME. He is a round peg in a square hole. I have no problem with zoners, or keep away for that matter- I actually prefer them in other games, but I refuse to touch DS in this game due to the fact that he is so dull and brain dead.

Take a look at Deadpool in UMvC3.. A Character built for zoning.. Shoots any direction- with multiple shots. In a game with wall jumps, super jumps,and where projectiles cancel out one another.. He goes from a potential lockdown, dominating, super beast to an annoying, beatable mid to low tier character, thanks to the games mechanics that he fits into.

 

[Mikman360]

True story. I don't mind facing ANY character in this game other than DS.. And not because I can't win, but because the zoning is sooooo damn boring. It brings a fast and brutal fighter to a screeching halt..

I've said it once, I'll say it a million times- Deathstroke's form of multiple hitting projectiles DOES NOT FIT IN THIS GAME. He is a round peg in a square hole. I have no problem with zoners, or keep away for that matter- I actually prefer them in other games, but I refuse to touch DS in this game due to the fact that he is so dull and brain dead.

Take a look at Deadpool in UMvC3.. A Character built for zoning.. Shoots any direction- with multiple shots. In a game with wall jumps, super jumps,and where projectiles cancel out one another.. He goes from a potential lockdown, dominating, super beast to an annoying, beatable mid to low tier character, thanks to the games mechanics that he fits into.

As a person who mains both, I can confidently say that DS's projectiles work in the game just as well as DP's. DP's had more powerful keepaway in a game with more powerful mobility. Likewise, DS has more static keepaway, in a game with less mobility options.

 

[xWEBSx]

As a person who mains both, I can confidently say that DS's projectiles work in the game just as well as DP's. DP's had more powerful keepaway in a game with more powerful mobility. Likewise, DS has more static keepaway, in a game with less mobility options.

I just don't get how powerful with mobility and static with less mobility can be considered similar. I appreciate where you are coming from, however they are not in the same league.
DP can spam his mid range guns over and over and get blown up by 90% of the cast.
DS can spam his assault rifle over and over and blow up 90% of the cast.

Guile is a good example of a zoning character.. He has his sonic boom and his flip kick when people want to jump in on him.. He does not have an option to throw out 3-5 sonic booms, does not have an air sonic boom, mid range sonic boom and low sonic boom.

No zoning character is meant to be "best" in any game. They are meant to be niche characters where the player can make them shine and stand out. (How many DP teams and Guile's ever won a major?) yet some players use them like a piece of art.
DS wins brainlessly.. Against a large majority of the cast... Plus slows the game to a halt in the process.. There is a problem with his design.

 

[Mikman360]

I just don't get how powerful with mobility and static with less mobility can be considered similar. I appreciate where you are coming from, however they are not in the same league.
DP can spam his mid range guns over and over and get blown up by 90% of the cast.
DS can spam his assault rifle over and over and blow up 90% of the cast.

Guile is a good example of a zoning character.. He has his sonic boom and his flip kick when people want to jump in on him.. He does not have an option to throw out 3-5 sonic booms, does not have an air sonic boom, mid range sonic boom and low sonic boom.

No zoning character is meant to be "best" in any game. They are meant to be niche characters where the player can make them shine and stand out. (How many DP teams and Guile's ever won a major?) yet some players use them like a piece of art.
DS wins brainlessly.. Against a large majority of the cast... Plus slows the game to a halt in the process.. There is a problem with his design.

This is just completely untrue. Spamming rifle will get your ass handed to you by 90% of the cast, ESPECIALLY at a mid range.
And DP had more options than just his guns to aid his keepaway. If you were just using guns, then yes, you will get blown up.

A game can easily have a zoning character being the best. MvC2 had Cable in top tier. There's no rule against it. Who's to say that the rushdown characters were meant to be the best? When game designers make characters, they dont TRY to make character A better than character B. It's not brainless either. Playing efficient keepaway requires knowledge of your opponents options to get through your attacks, reading skills, and prediction.

There is no problem with his design at all.

 

[Skkra]

No zoning character is meant to be "best" in any game.

You mean the way Kabal and Kenshi both have incredible zoning and are clearly the top 2 characters in MK9? Or how Old Sagat is the best character in ST? Zoning is zoning. Zoning should be allowed to be just as viable an option as any other. It's up to good players to be on point with it if they want to win.

They are meant to be niche characters where the player can make them shine and stand out. (How many DP teams and Guile's ever won a major?)

If a top tier player picked a Deadpool team, I bet we'd see Justin Wong or Yipes be able to win a major with him. Dieminion's Guile has won several SF4 majors. Infiltration's Jin/Alisa zoning team in SFxT is winning every major he enters lately. Or how about Arturo's SFxT Dhalsim/Alisa pure zoning team that just won Civil War the other day?

DS wins brainlessly.. Against a large majority of the cast... Plus slows the game to a halt in the process.. There is a problem with his design.

Deathstroke wins brainlessly against brainless players. When you fight Deathstroke, you need to adapt and play a patient game to get in. That's how zoners have worked for the last 20 years. Duck, dash, walk, be patient. Pick your moments to jump. Watch your opponent and read their tendencies.

 

[xWEBSx]

You mean the way Kabal and Kenshi both have incredible zoning and are clearly the top 2 characters in MK9? Or how Old Sagat is the best character in ST? Zoning is zoning. Zoning should be allowed to be just as viable an option as any other. It's up to good players to be on point with it if they want to win.


If a top tier player picked a Deadpool team, I bet we'd see Justin Wong or Yipes be able to win a major with him. Dieminion's Guile has won several SF4 majors. Infiltration's Jin/Alisa zoning team in SFxT is winning every major he enters lately. Or how about Arturo's SFxT Dhalsim/Alisa pure zoning team that just won Civil War the other day?


Deathstroke wins brainlessly against brainless players. When you fight Deathstroke, you need to adapt and play a patient game to get in. That's how zoners have worked for the last 20 years. Duck, dash, walk, be patient. Pick your moments to jump. Watch your opponent and read their tendencies.

I spoke of character types and touched on how the player makes the character. You go and post pro names playing pro games... Please..

How many new players you know pick Guile and stand a chance vs a competent player? One sonic boom and one flaah kick before Guile is laying on his back. How many newer players you know say.. OHHH you beat my Ryu .. Ok.. Now face my Guile!!
It doesn't happen!
Now injustice on the other hand... In a majority of rooms (say in KoTH, Survival) players lose their asses off and come back next match as..... DS!!! I wonder why that could be?

You have a correct statement about zoners over the past 20 yrs... What zoners do you know where one single misread puts you BACK to full screen distance?

 

[Mikman360]

I spoke of character types and touched on how the player makes the character. You go and post pro names playing pro games... Please..

How many new players you know pick Guile and stand a chance vs a competent player? One sonic boom and one flaah kick before Guile is laying on his back. How many newer players you know say.. OHHH you beat my Ryu .. Ok.. Now face my Guile!!
It doesn't happen!
Now injustice on the other hand... In a majority of rooms (say in KoTH, Survival) players lose their asses off and come back next match as..... DS!!! I wonder why that could be?

You have a correct statement about zoners over the past 20 yrs... What zoners do you know where one single misread puts you BACK to full screen distance?

Tatsunoko vs. Capcom's Saki. 1 rifle shot+grenade = back to full screen.

And what I'm getting from this is a matter of casual vs. non-casual. We are discussing this game on a professional level (not saying I or all of us are pros), where only competent players matter. In a competetive scene, there is nothing wrong with DS's design. Even the makers of this game intended this game to be a competetive level game.

 

[Psychotropic]

There's no denying that Deathstrokes (mostly) lame playstyle is accessible to bad/new players. That's why you see so many of them online who don't know much else outside of zoning - bad zoning - zoning that gets them blown up. I'd only consider a player as spamming if they didn't understand how to do anything else.

 

[xWEBSx]

Tatsunoko vs. Capcom's Saki. 1 rifle shot+grenade = back to full screen.

So 1 character out of how many games?
[/quote]
And what I'm getting from this is a matter of casual vs. non-casual. We are discussing this game on a professional level (not saying I or all of us are pros), where only competent players matter. In a competetive scene, there is nothing wrong with DS's design. Even the makers of this game intended this game to be a competetive level game.[/quote]

A competent player is a competent player, in any forum. "The competitive scene".. when i see this I laugh... it's a fighting game.. Both parties want to win, try their best.. Hence- a competitive game. A person who just picks up the game wants to win as much as a fighting game veteran. This or any forum talking about a game on a professional level is like a little league baseball team talking on a professional level... At the end of the day.. We are all at home or at a friends practicing and learning (wish I could say enjoying- not so however, for many).. And at the end of the day.. DS character design is flawed... It is what it is... I deal with it.

 

[RYX]

You have a correct statement about zoners over the past 20 yrs... What zoners do you know where one single misread puts you BACK to full screen distance?

Any Zoner who can do combos.

In MK: Kabal can flash parry, full combo. Kenshi can armor anything you do, full screen. Noob Saibot's Up knee and Freddy's claws.

Injustice: Superman lasers. Deathstroke has to spend meter to put you full screen. That isn't unfair in the slightest since at a close distance the grenade misses completely.


EDIT: DS is flawed, okay yeah. Don't respond to me please.

 

[xWEBSx]

I'm not fighting the entire board of DS loyalists and enthusiasts.. You like who you like.

To the OP: i find him boring to play so you are not alone.

 

[Skkra]

A competent player is a competent player, in any forum. "The competitive scene".. when i see this I laugh... it's a fighting game.. Both parties want to win, try their best.. Hence- a competitive game. A person who just picks up the game wants to win as much as a fighting game veteran.

Anyone who picks up a game theoretically wants to win. But there is a gigantic difference between normal players and competitive/tournament players. Fighting games are our hobby. We spend hours and hours in practice mode figuring out new technology, maximizing techniques, and refining details. We share our findings, discuss them, and refine them further. We spend thousands of dollars traveling around the country entering tournaments. We take the time to make videos and write guides, kindly condensing hundreds of hours of playtime, experience and knowledge down into a format that allows new players to massively benefit in a very short time.

I have friends all over the country who I know exclusively through playing fighting games. You clearly are not a part of the "competitive scene" or you wouldn't laugh when you see it mentioned. This is a fun hobby, and it's one that brings people together.

How many new players you know pick Guile and stand a chance vs a competent player? One sonic boom and one flaah kick before Guile is laying on his back. How many newer players you know say.. OHHH you beat my Ryu .. Ok.. Now face my Guile!!

Your argument makes no sense. Your problem is that you are lumping in newer players and treating their skill level with the same respect as competent, tournament-level players.

Now injustice on the other hand... In a majority of rooms (say in KoTH, Survival) players lose their asses off and come back next match as..... DS!!! I wonder why that could be?

The serious answer to this question? Because they are bad, and if they then start instantly winning with Deathstroke, the players they are beating are also bad. The majority of players who play this game online are very casual players who do not have a solid grasp of basic fighting game paradigms and mechanics.

They use words like "spammer" to make themselves feel better when facing someone who is using a single repetitive tactic that, despite it's obviousness and simplicity, they just can't seem to beat! Well golly gee! If its the same exact "spam" every time, it should be the easiest possible thing to beat.

Deathstroke mows people down because they are inexperienced or bad players who do not understand how to deal with a zoner.

 

[Demeisen]

You've answered the question yourself: Nobody plays good games. Gaming nowadays caters towards shitty gamers.

Loads of people play good games, I was talking specifically about fighters, which have a reputation for being elitist and closed off, so very few people bother. You guys do know there was basically a massive stagnation and basically a crash in the fighting game world, right?

And there are plenty of games that cater towards pro's like yourself, it's just not the mainstream. Because the mainstream needs dirty casual people with limited free time and not hundreds of hours to learn buttons(but dat disposable income), and this fucks with people that make fighting games because the game itself might be beginner accessible, but the environment around it sure as shit isn't.

--

But allow it, I've given this game a crack, the online environment is horrible and the arcade scene is dominated by Lanterns and Strokes. The try-hard mentality that you guys think is a completely painless and totally non-toxic way to play.

That's what you 'well, it's all fair, play to win and be the best!!!' crowd don't get. This game, at least in London and online, is quite quickly becoming a two horse race between THE two lamest characters in the game. It's been out in the UK like a week or two? Yeah, that's not a good thing. Fuck it though, in the last few days I've been behind a kind of resurgence for Arcana Heart 3, so I got my fighter, you guys enjoy yours. I can't say I haven't given it a fair crack, but honestly I just don't think it's for me.

Skkra - Fair point about the naming of games that other pros play and their zoning teams and what-not. It's funny because I'd bet money that all of these games are going to be better supported and have a longer life than Injustice. Fact is, this game is a bit boring.

 

[Amadeous]

Loads of people play good games, I was talking specifically about fighters, which have a reputation for being elitist and closed off, so very few people bother. You guys do know there was basically a massive stagnation and basically a crash in the fighting game world, right?

And there are plenty of games that cater towards pro's like yourself, it's just not the mainstream. Because the mainstream needs dirty casual people with limited free time and not hundreds of hours to learn buttons(but dat disposable income), and this fucks with people that make fighting games because the game itself might be beginner accessible, but the environment around it sure as shit isn't.

--

But allow it, I've given this game a crack, the online environment is horrible and the arcade scene is dominated by Lanterns and Strokes. The try-hard mentality that you guys think is a completely painless and totally non-toxic way to play.

That's what you 'well, it's all fair, play to win and be the best!!!' crowd don't get. This game, at least in London and online, is quite quickly becoming a two horse race between THE two lamest characters in the game. It's been out in the UK like a week or two? Yeah, that's not a good thing. Fuck it though, in the last few days I've been behind a kind of resurgence for Arcana Heart 3, so I got my fighter, you guys enjoy yours. I can't say I haven't given it a fair crack, but honestly I just don't think it's for me.

Skkra - Fair point about the naming of games that other pros play and their zoning teams and what-not. It's funny because I'd bet money that all of these games are going to be better supported and have a longer life than Injustice. Fact is, this game is a bit boring.

Do you really think the only two good characters are Lantern and DS?

Did you see Tom Brady's Aquaman? REO's Batman? FChamp's Sinestro?

There are good players for every main so I have no idea what you are taking about with this "Horse race".

 

[Skkra]

Because the mainstream needs dirty casual people with limited free time and not hundreds of hours to learn buttons(but dat disposable income)

I don’t think anyone is coming out against “dirty casual” players whatsoever. We want and need those people to play. The more people that join the scene, come to tournaments, and make friends, the stronger it becomes. Trust me, I AM one of the people with very limited free time… I get to play games maybe 4-6 hours a week, depending. I work a lot of hours, spend time with my wife, play music, etc etc. While I’ve been playing fighters competitively since 2000, I don’t think it’s a coincidence that the period in my life in which I was a consistent top 3 placer in my main game was right around the end of college, when I had a LOT of time to play.

I don’t think it requires hundreds of hours as much as it did… a lot of work is already done for us nowadays. Combos are all listed on the forums, so all I need to do is read it once and execute it. It’s on me to pay very close attention in all of my games and make the most of the playtime I get to learn, absorb and retain as much as possible.

But allow it, I've given this game a crack, the online environment is horrible and the arcade scene is dominated by Lanterns and Strokes. The try-hard mentality that you guys think is a completely painless and totally non-toxic way to play.

To be fair, the “try-hard mentality” you mention is simply wanting to win. No one is forcing anyone to go to this website, to go to tournaments, or to even give a damn about the competitive scene. I imagine that the vast, vast majority of people who own this game will probably only ever play online, or with a few friends. And that’s totally fine. If you don’t want to deal with GL and DS, don’t go to the arcade. But you can’t fault players for using characters that are easy to pick up… remember, it’s only Week 3. I don’t know if you’ve ever played SF4 online, but you’re going to fight a looooot of Kens and Ryus.

I play SF4 and Marvel and P4A, and love watching those games at a high level, but as for playing… it’s basically just my friends and I getting drunk and having fun on the weekends. Yeah, we’re all solid simply because we’ve been playing fighting games for years, but none of us actually stand a chance of placing in a tournament.

If you don’t enjoy the game, return it and play something else. If you don’t want to strive to play at a high level, don’t waste your time coming here to discuss the game. As much as I love watching and playing MVC3, I’ve never wasted a moment discussing it or reading forums about it since I have no desire to be competitive.

 

[Demeisen]

Valid stuff.

If you don’t enjoy the game, return it and play something else. If you don’t want to strive to play at a high level, don’t waste your time coming here to discuss the game. As much as I love watching and playing MVC3, I’ve never wasted a moment discussing it or reading forums about it since I have no desire to be competitive.

You might not be privy or partaking in 'dirty casual' talk, and that may be me para-phrasing, but I assure you, it's there. I'm not even crying about it, I know I'm just a few words from the new guy round here, but I was playing Soul back when it was Blade, SF Alpha 3, MK Trilogy back in the day... Trust me, this isn't my first fighter lol, and I know how this whole thing works and I'm not disrespecting anybody or expecting to be fed. Honestly I'll just go back to playing Arcana Heart 3 and hoping that one of my homies picks up P4A when that drops here so I can try before I buy.

As for not really digging the scene and bothering the people on the forums, I hear you man and I'm bouncing. No disrespect to anybody here, but my time with this game has gone like this:

Couple of fantastic days in which I do well and enjoy the game and have a great time, decide to see what the forums were saying and maybe take this seriously seeing as how my local is gonna pick it up and I want to support that establishment.

A week passes in which I don't get a verification email. Over the space of that week it's raw cheese as far as the eye can see IRL and online. I'm not even losing every time. I'm probably about 5/5 against both lantern and Stroke with Doomsday, which is probably in line-ish with the matchup data. But win or lose the game is simply no fun. Stroke might be too refined for my mere 15 year experience of fighting games to understand, but that's on me. But it feels like I'm following the same basic formula constantly, and it's not an entertaining one, and it's the same story with Nightwing and Doomsday. I'm done trying to like this game. It's like when I moved from Soul 5 because they made Mitsurugi really limited and boring if you wanted to do anything but get blown up. Like that, only without 5 other games of being really interesting.

So fuck that, the game just ain't for me. Probably gonna trade in it for P4A. Speaking of which, how does that game rate for you?

Amadeous - What I will say is I've written a *handful* of posts here, and about a third of them have straight up been not read. I never said I thought the only two good characters are DS and GL. I said that's what the metagame around me seems to be, at least for the most part. I do indeed run into the odd stream watcher try-hard Batboy, and I also get the odd straight up spammy Sinestro and Aquaman. I've ran into a good player for any of these characters.

That actually pretty much is it though. DS and GL by far the most abundant, and they both make the game really shit in totally different ways. IMO.

 

[Skkra]

I was playing Soul back when it was Blade, SF Alpha 3, MK Trilogy back in the day...

So fuck that, the game just ain't for me. Probably gonna trade in it for P4A. Speaking of which, how does that game rate for you?

I hear you man. I go way back as well. It sucks when you get excited about a game then it doesn't pan out. I was really hyped up for SFxT and it disappointed the hell out of me... although I've been enjoying the 2013 patch quite a bit. I'm enjoying Injustice for now; we'll see how long it holds my interest, or if I'll end up just going back to SF4 and Marvel and MK2 haha.

I enjoy P4A. It has all of the standard "Arc" mechanics for the most part along with some other simplified stuff that I imagine they put in to make it more accessible. Considering that I've never been really into GG or any of the other Arc games, I find some of the simplified stuff very nice, since it makes it easier for me to pick up and play.

Overall I like it. I play it once a week with a few buddies, it's fun, it feels smooth, plays well on a Madcatz TE stick.

 

[echelonNYK]

" F*ck Deathstroke" - Bane

 

[RYX]

" F*ck Deathstroke" - Bane

You should be worried more about Killer Frost. Bitch is a nightmare.

 

[RM Jonnitti]

i love playing lame/keep away. thats why i play DS. if you can't deal with zoning then its your own damn fault.

 

[afrozilla86]

I wouldn't know if he was a boring character to play with, but I did get a few rounds in playing against a really good death stroke after my roommates scrubbed out, a few times and I still enjoyed the battles. Even had a chance to incorporate my zoning for a few stretches of the match. The one downside to playing against deathstroke is wager, regardless of who does it, benefits death stroke by pushing him full screen away for more zoning. Aside from that just played through it and I felt a lot of the matches were dictated by hard reads and reset guesses. That being said, I play g.l and could picture the needs being more important to add for the sake of other characters.