Adding More Depth To MK

[Onilordasmodeus]

Crathen

You seem to be skeptical of parries and the like being added "just to be added", well in my brain storming to find a way to make cross-ups more interesting in MK, I came upon this though. Please give your feedback...

What if each character had different jump in attacks that gave them advantage on block, but at the same time that advantage could be nullified with a parry which would put the player on defense at advantage due to the attacks recovery. Other jump-in attacks wouldn't give adavantage on block, and even when parried both players would be at zero...BUT, tapping the block button to parry, and missing that parry (as in the attck was never thrown or the attack whiffed), leaves the player who tried to parry in negative frames giving the other player advantage.

Put that on top of being able to d1 out of a cross-up JP, or the attacker being able to JK to beat the d1.

This parry system (really the whole "defense meter" idea) wouldn't be for nothing, it would allow for chip to be negated in the zoning game, and it would add a deeper meta-game in cross-ups.

 

[Roko1985]

No run button, and defense stuff! I like the weapons idea and two fighting styles. Side step is ok, but should cost some meter! Air combos sounds good, but only after some luncher that cost some meter. Keep the X-Rays! Those are MK's future. One normal X-ray and one weapon's X-ray! Brutality back! Animality back! Focus attack or IGAU's B3/F3 with armor that can be canceled to use the armor to dash trough projectiles! No vest characters! I like Kratos and Freddy, but I would more happy on other MK characters! Good story mode like MK9! No new characters! We have enough! Put in as many as you can NRS! At least 10 DLC's. Put some dust around the character that is moving when they dash, jump or fall like SF! No Cyrax 100% resets and Kabal like characters! Take some combo artist like Check to be one of the testers! You need someone to show you how broken the game or the character is! I like the KI3 look and I would be happy to see that NRS come close to that graphic level or even better! Please no aggressor mode! That was a bit off the topic, but what the hell I truly believe in NRS for MK10! MK9 is still the best game I have ever played, even if some people think that it is dead.

 

[Living Corpse]

No side step and no weapons. You can't side step on a 2d game.

Catwoman.

Sort of.

 

[FrothyOmen]

"deepness"

the word you are looking for is depth.......

 

[MagicMan357]

- Rework the damage scaling so high execution combos pull the most damage
- Chip on block is always under 1% but builds more meter
- Universal armor but with a lot of moves that break it
- Keep juggle gravity same as injustice
- AA's should have priority
- Fast recovery on all strings with plausible pushback
- bring pushblock
- Make breakers have their own meter
- add something to the blocking system (maybe block + b is a parry?)
- Air combos with gravity
- make low grabs do something to standing opponents (like push them back)
- NO INVULNERABLE WAKEUPS, this is bullshit

 

[Crathen]

Crathen

You seem to be skeptical of parries and the like being added "just to be added", well in my brain storming to find a way to make cross-ups more interesting in MK, I came upon this though. Please give your feedback...

What if each character had different jump in attacks that gave them advantage on block, but at the same time that advantage could be nullified with a parry which would put the player on defense at advantage due to the attacks recovery. Other jump-in attacks wouldn't give adavantage on block, and even when parried both players would be at zero...BUT, tapping the block button to parry, and missing that parry (as in the attck was never thrown or the attack whiffed), leaves the player who tried to parry in negative frames giving the other player advantage.

Put that on top of being able to d1 out of a cross-up JP, or the attacker being able to JK to beat the d1.

This parry system (really the whole "defense meter" idea) wouldn't be for nothing, it would allow for chip to be negated in the zoning game, and it would add a deeper meta-game in cross-ups.

The question you have to ask yourself is "why i want to put this new mechanic into the game?What does is solve?Is it needed?Can't i use a mechanic that is already in the game?" , your crossup parry suggestion does nothing other than giving an other option just for the sake of it , the metagame of will i AA you with my normals / i get a crossup and pressure is already there , just make it more consistent , sure to add depth you can have different air normals with different hitboxes / hurtboxes / block / hit advantage but what would that parry system really add into the game?

 

[Onilordasmodeus]

The question you have to ask yourself is "why i want to put this new mechanic into the game?What does is solve?Is it needed?Can't i use a mechanic that is already in the game?" , your crossup parry suggestion does nothing other than giving an other option just for the sake of it , the metagame of will i AA you with my normals / i get a crossup and pressure is already there , just make it more consistent , sure to add depth you can have different air normals with different hitboxes / hurtboxes / block / hit advantage but what would that parry system really add into the game?

Yes, the cross up pressure that you are talking about is already there, but it is always in favor of the attacker as it currently stands. A blocked JKs or JPs will always allow the attacker to be at adanvantage, but being able to parry would allow you to negate that advantage.

What would a parry system add to the game? Well, IMO only if all the "defense meter" stuff in this thread was incorporated, and a parry system was tied to that, then a parry would add more options against zoning opponents (the attacker would gain super meter but the defender would gain defensive meter), and make the cqc a little less passive in terms of adding more reversal attacks opportunities.

What I'm trying to solve at the end of the day is the "lay on the block button" syndrom that exists in MK, all while adding more ways to reverse attacks, balance breakers, and just have stronger defensive options so having situations where you just have to take the chip can be avoided.

 

[Deyrax]

Just make it 3D and bring back everything from that era reworked a little bit.

 

[THTB]

The major issue with MK9 tended to be how favored offense was over defense. A bit of it had to do with bugs, but take that away and the game still favors offense a good deal more. Chip damage was really high, there were ways to rack up to 10% chip damage + set up mixup scenarios. Also, projectiles faced a heavy problem of most of them having zero pushback and being terrible on frames. Also, pokes were very, very unrewarding outside of the opportunity to chip back, while risking full combo punishes on block on some. While the footsies game was developed eventually and became a super important aspect, this offensive issue was still a problem.

In all honesty, the additions I'd like to see would be ones that don't eliminate this feel of the game, because really, it made MK9 as fun as it was, regardless. I just want to see some ways to deal with the problems of MK9 without really getting rid of them.

-A defense meter would be cool. Only building off of successful blocks on your end, and being the meter source for pushblock and breakers. Sometimes, MK9 just doesn't reward you for being patient and blocking for extended periods. This would be the answer to that, while allowing NRS to keep chip damage at the level it's currently at. Making it fill at a reasonable rate (enough so that blocking maybe like 5-7 hits granted a stock) and maybe giving it 3 total stocks (with a full stock granting a breaker). The pushblock could have some of the same mechanics as IGAU in that you can armor through the push. This would also allow the main meter to be fully utilized for every attacking option, and actually fill on successfully landed attacks (comparable to using a special that builds 1/17 of a bar when executed).

-I think armor tends to be a sloppy answer to extra defensive mechanics, because then it allows you, in some cases, to use it for more than just 1 particular situation. Put more usage into the invincibilities. This would allow you to get the intended use out of certain moves (Like Sonya's EX cartwheel).

-4 stocks of main meter, and 2 levels of X-Rays. Level 1 X-Rays would basically be a weaker version of the standard X-Ray, with a shorter animation and no cut to the bone-breaking part, costing 3 bars. Level 2 X-Rays would simply be the X-Rays of MK9, and require a full meter gauge. And the scaling on X-Rays could be less strict and universal, with Level 2s being scaled to 90% of the full damage, and Level 1s being scaled to 75%. Also, add in a "drive cancel" which allows you to cancel a special into another special for the cost of 1 stock, removing maybe 20% of the current scaling and restoring 1st-combo-hit properties to that move that was drive cancelled into. Also, maybe add a "roman cancel" in place of stance switch. The main thing I'm getting at here is to give characters ways to achieve good amounts of damage for actual investment, without completely limiting the viability of using a lot of meter in combos, and the extra stock of meter would lend to the leniency, alongside the meter building changes.

The rest of fixing the engine from MK9 to MK10 would really just lend itself in doing things like adding pushback to more projectiles, fixing poke block and hit advantages and maybe increasing damage on them, and buffing uppercuts and jabs so that more characters aren't completely screwed in that department, and removing the idea of infinite-armor-inside-a-time-window.

 

[ForeverKing]

I love MK9 the way it is, it is deeper than Injustice in my opinion

 

[Sami]

Can anyone think of a way to have cross-ups AND a block button? I think if this is figured out, MK's depth would jump up immediately.

Cross-ups are not depth, they're a flaw of back-to-block that somehow became a fighting game standard. "Oh look I landed on your head. Pure guesswork to decide which way to block!"

 

[THTB]

Cross-ups are not depth, they're a flaw of back-to-block that somehow became a fighting game standard. "Oh look I landed on your head. Pure guesswork to decide which way to block!"

While they were a flaw in the design of back-to-block, crossups do add things in their own way. It lends to a much more potent wakeup offense, due to the fact that its something that adds to being knocked down, or work as a general option to open up opponents. They add something that you can't get out of a block button. Is that bad? Not necessarily.

This idea of one type of blocking is superior to the other has to stop. Both things add aspects to a game that the other doesn't.

 

[Sami]

While they were a flaw in the design of back-to-block, crossups do add things in their own way. It lends to a much more potent wakeup offense, due to the fact that its something that adds to being knocked down, or work as a general option to open up opponents. They add something that you can't get out of a block button. Is that bad? Not necessarily.

This idea of one type of blocking is superior to the other has to stop. Both things add aspects to a game that the other doesn't.

When timed right it's pure guess that requires no skill to avoid, just a blind guess as to where the magic pixel will be. I don't hate back-to-block, but I do hate cross-ups. If anything, I'd rather have B2B with cross-ups removed (overheads are blocked from the side the move started on, and jump-in overheads are blocked based on the side the opponent was jumping from). Seriously hate cross-ups :'(

As for opening up players, MK has very high chip damage, so if somebody wants to block all day they will still lose the match very quickly. I much prefer that system (penalise excessive blocking) than pure guesswork on the block.

 

[THTB]

When timed right it's pure guess that requires no skill to avoid, just a blind guess as to where the magic pixel will be. I don't hate back-to-block, but I do hate cross-ups. If anything, I'd rather have B2B with cross-ups removed (overheads are blocked from the side the move started on, and jump-in overheads are blocked based on the side the opponent was jumping from). Seriously hate cross-ups :'(

As for opening up players, MK has very high chip damage, so if somebody wants to block all day they will still lose the match very quickly. I much prefer that system (penalise excessive blocking) than pure guesswork on the block.

You generally have to have pretty specific setups, and more often than not, the setups still generally aren't so ambiguous it's hard to tell.


The high chip damage along with the lack of defensive options other than armor or poke is what's wrong with MK9's offense in the first place.

 

[Braindead]

Also DEPTH.

what baffles me is MAPUSA used depth in the title, then deepness deepness deepness lol

 

[Sami]

You generally have to have pretty specific setups, and more often than not, the setups still generally aren't so ambiguous it's hard to tell.

The high chip damage along with the lack of defensive options other than armor or poke is what's wrong with MK9's offense in the first place.

Pushblock, briefly invincible reversal attacks, blockstrings having more negative frames (on some characters) to make maintaining block pressure far more difficult, removal of Kabal and Cage (joke), blocked-damage regenerating unless you get hit, etc. All options that can be added to the game.

 

[Prinz]

Adding a defense and offence meter would add so-called depth, but doesn't one common bar for offence and defense add actually more depth? Ask a Kenshi player. What if Kenshi had a bar for armored specials and another one for breaker? What about Kabal? Or god forbid Cyrax or Smoke?

 

[Badboy Takuma]

what baffles me is MAPUSA used depth in the title, then deepness deepness deepness lol

no thtb edited that ;D
also dont bash me i know that my English is pretty thrash tier

 

[Prinz]

I love MK9's dash-blocking. I love chip damage. I love the offensive feel to it, even of zoning and footsies. It's a great, simple and entertaining game. BUT NEEDS A BALANCE PATCH!!! Ugh...

 

[Badboy Takuma]

I love MK9's dash-blocking. I love chip damage. I love the offensive feel to it, even of zoning and footsies. It's a great, simple and entertaining game. BUT NEEDS A BALANCE PATCH!!! Ugh...

actually dash block and the knockdown options are the only good mechanics in mk9.

mk9 is a very bad game for "defensive style" players.
like i said before mk9 is pretty 1 dimensional.

 

[TarkatanDentist]

Cross-ups are not depth, they're a flaw of back-to-block that somehow became a fighting game standard. "Oh look I landed on your head. Pure guesswork to decide which way to block!"

So what? Combos as we know them today originally stemmed from a glitch in Street Fighter 2 - that doesn't make combos automatically bad, does it? And standing 50s/50s are just as much 'pure guesswork to decide which way to block'...

One thing that bothered me about MK9 was that you build up insane meter from block strings (3 blocked hits = almost a quarter of a bar!), yet build up none from actually landing an attack. As far as I'm concerned, landing a hit needs to build up meter (maybe 6% of a bar per hit?), and a blocked hit should build up maybe half as much as a hit that connects?

Block damage is good - MK's high block damage gives it an edge that other fighting games don't have. That can stay as is.

Push block could be interesting, and would certainly help balance out some of the top tier characters who rely a lot on pressure. The 'instant guard' idea where you take no chip damage sounds fairly cool, and is less ridiculous than SC5's just guard system where p. much anything you just guard can then be punished.

Sidestep should stick to fighting games like Tekken and Dead or Alive - 2D MK is where it's at.

It bothers me that every character in MK9 has a projectile. Unlike, say, Street Fighter where several characters don't have projectiles and rely on rushdown and other such tactics. Especially considering that MK is a lot more offensive in nature than Street Fighter is, NRS could easily design a few projectile-less characters without them being left in the dust. (Seriously, though, characters like Sonya do not need a projectile on top of all their other tools)

Running and defense meter... sound like pretty cool ideas, though IDK how well they'd necessarily work in practice.

One idea I have which I think I've written about somewhere on TYM before, is the idea of 'stage transitions', which would kind of be a cross between MK3-style and Injustice-style transitions. Every character has an uppercut with d2, right? Well, if you were on a stage with transitions, and you were on the 'bottom' floor, hitting them with d2 while your opponent is in mid-air would send them going through the ceiling and onto the next stage. This would deal 6% unscaled damage to the opponent - whether you hit it after a one-hit combo, or a 10-hit combo, it will always do 6%. Then, they could add another universal attack in the form of u1 - a slow overhead strike that normally only provides frame advantage on hit and 0 on block. However, if performed on a mid-air opponent while on the 'top' floor, it will smack them back onto the bottom floor, again for 6% unscaled damage. This could lead to some interesting dilemmas when performing combos - do you want to end it early to go for d2 to get 4-5% extra damage overall, or do you want the wake-up set-ups that come from other options?

Regarding weapons, you could maybe have a 'weapon' mode, whereby you can unleash it after your weapon meter has charged for a long while, and hit your opponent with some powerful blows (but lose your regular normals in the process). However, there'd need to be some sort of limit on how long you could use it for.

 

[Eddy Wang]

actually dash block and the knockdown options are the only good mechanics in mk9.

mk9 is a very bad game for "defensive style" players.
like i said before mk9 is pretty 1 dimensional.

Stay Fray map

 

[Prinz]

actually dash block and the knockdown options are the only good mechanics in mk9.

mk9 is a very bad game for "defensive style" players.
like i said before mk9 is pretty 1 dimensional.

I also consider the meter system very good. Adding invincibility to back dash would make some justice to defenders. And not to forget the dial strings. They have uses and are awesome.

 

[Deyrax]

I want death traps back. Doesn't get any deeper when one hit and you're dead.

 

[Wigy]

they need to make sure there is no absolutely fucking pointless normals .. too many of those in mk9

almost every character except strykers standing 4 was useless.