a Tier list because its been a while

[Qwark28]

GA has a good anti-air that can definitely deal with joker, whilst I am unaware of Joker's true footsie capabilites GA actually has solid footsie options, not that people would believe it, so I don't see how joker out and out wins in footsies, more explanation is needed here. The damage is an issue but GA's damage comes from zoning and general hit and run which he does very well. GA has better options than most on wake-up to escape jokers bs so that isn't an issue, and again whilst I am unaware of joker's general wall carry off of practical set-ups Ga has good wall carry as well. So the only thing I'm currently seeing is that joker does more damage than arrow.

Overall, more explanation is need before conclusions are drawn.

If Joker jumps on aquaman, wonderwoman and sinestro, arrow does not fare that well. You will anti air joker, it's true, but he won't be discouraged. you will not do it often at all and your damage is pitiful.

Joker's d2 hits from jump distance and converts 37% into a setup.

green arrow's wakeup is full combo punishable by j3 d2 mb rlg while he only hits us for 7% and pushes himself further in the corner.

Joker has 60% wallcarry combos and if he catches you within jump distance of the corner than you're in for 100% resets.

Let me know what else you need to know.

 

[Cossner]

There is slightly more to it though, even if we do have accurate mu charts.

Is it better to have mostly 6-4's and a couple losing matchups, or all 5-5's?

Does it skew rankings if you have two characters with the same amount of good/bad matchups, but one does better against the top tiers?

What about those who do well overall, but get bodied by a couple characters?

It's impossible to be completely objective. Going by number of good/bad matchups doesn't take enough into account, and adding MU numbers improperly skews things in a game with multiple 7-3's+more.

How is that even a question, of course it's better to have mostly 6-4s. It means you have an advantage in the game.
I've never seen a single game where 2 characters had the same amount of match ups, but if so, then yes.
If a character does well overall, then he's a top character. Even if he gets bopped by a couple of characters, obviously. Reptile gets bopped by like 3 characters, does this mean he's not good, just because he isn't kuhbawl? No.
Of course it's impossible to be objective, since the match up numbers where you're taking the data aren't objective. But it's the definition of a tier list. A tier list is "how well this character does in this game". It's not about tools, or what he has, or anything like that, but how well or bad it does against the rest of the characters.

Or are you saying tier lists like this one based on "oh I feel this character isn't that bad" are more accurate.

 

[Fred Marvel]

For all the discussion about "how useless tier lists are" these threads never fail to be immensely entertaining.

lol thats why i made this and put "have fun kiddies" in the OP

 

[Phosferrax]

If Joker jumps on aquaman, wonderwoman and sinestro, arrow does not fare that well. You will anti air joker, it's true, but he won't be discouraged. you will not do it often at all and your damage is pitiful.

Joker's d2 hits from jump distance and converts 37% into a setup.

green arrow's wakeup is full combo punishable by j3 d2 mb rlg while he only hits us for 7% and pushes himself further in the corner.

Joker has 60% wallcarry combos and if he catches you within jump distance of the corner than you're in for 100% resets.

Let me know what else you need to know.

I haven't seen a joker jump at those characters with great success in honesty, not offline.

Arrow is either shooting fire/electric arrows at you at jump distance, savage blasting, or sliding at jump distance, not jumping in. All of which leave him at advantage on block.

The thing with GA's wake-ups is you're either guessing a savage blast or a slide, which can be mb'd on block for advantage, so it isn't as simple as you put it with '
green arrow's wakeup is full combo punishable by j3 d2 mb rlg while he only hits us for 7% and pushes himself further in the corner' which suggests you don't have that much experience in that situation against GA. Also Joker can't reliably attempt a cross-up on Arrows wake-up either because of dead on into a combo.

 

[Qwark28]

I haven't seen a joker jump at those characters with great success in honesty, not offline.

Arrow is either shooting fire/electric arrows at you at jump distance, savage blasting, or sliding at jump distance, not jumping in. All of which leave him at advantage on block.

The thing with GA's wake-ups is you're either guessing a savage blast or a slide, which can be mb'd on block for advantage, so it isn't as simple as you put it with '
green arrow's wakeup is full combo punishable by j3 d2 mb rlg while he only hits us for 7% and pushes himself further in the corner' which suggests you don't have that much experience in that situation against GA. Also Joker can't reliably attempt a cross-up on Arrows wake-up either because of dead on into a combo.

I've played several arrows, none of them used wakeup slide more than once per 2-3 games. Are you really going to risk half your life and you being cornered for a slide?

If Joker's crossup setups work on a 6f air snatch and 10f lift, they work on dead on. You can't even react to the jump, you need to do your wakeup on a read.

 

[Phosferrax]

I've played several arrows, none of them used wakeup slide more than once per 2-3 games. Are you really going to risk half your life and you being cornered for a slide?

If Joker's crossup setups work on a 6f air snatch and 10f lift, they work on dead on. You can't even react to the jump, you need to do your wakeup on a read.

Because you can mb b3 it? So what? It's just a guessing game that both characters have options in. The only difference is the damage output, but I would agree that it is equal, joker does more damage on the inside, arrow does more on the outside. Fair enough on the dead on though.

 

[Qwark28]

Because you can mb b3 it? So what? It's just a guessing game that both characters have options in. The only difference is the damage output, but I would agree that it is equal, joker does more damage on the inside, arrow does more on the outside. Fair enough on the dead on though.

Is wakeup slide not only partly invincible?

 

[rev0lver]

How is that even a question, of course it's better to have mostly 6-4s. It means you have an advantage in the game.
I've never seen a single game where 2 characters had the same amount of match ups, but if so, then yes.
If a character does well overall, then he's a top character. Even if he gets bopped by a couple of characters, obviously. Reptile gets bopped by like 3 characters, does this mean he's not good, just because he isn't kuhbawl? No.
Of course it's impossible to be objective, since the match up numbers where you're taking the data aren't objective. But it's the definition of a tier list. A tier list is "how well this character does in this game". It's not about tools, or what he has, or anything like that, but how well or bad it does against the rest of the characters.

Or are you saying tier lists like this one based on "oh I feel this character isn't that bad" are more accurate.

1. It's still not that simple though. That means you can be counterpicked, and there's a weakness in your game, whereas the other character is balanced to do well against everyone. That's why there are legitimate arguments about Batman, who players like Forever King argue goes even against the vast majority of the cast, who could be top tier or just be high tier. At the same time, there's characters like Kenshi in mk9 who bops most of the cast but has a couple of arguable bad matchups, which put him under Kabal despite having a stronger advantage against most of the cast.

2. Then how are you making proper tiers by that? I agree that it should be taken into account, but there would be a need to quantify it.

3. There has been a big debate about this though. For example, the sinestro players argue that their character can't be top tier because he gets bodied by a couple characters. Cowboy argues that Lex is a "shitter" because he has a near-unwinnable matchup against Sinestro, even though he does well against most of the cast. In a game with a good amount of lopsided matchups, a character that has 2-8's can create an anomaly within the tier list if they also have a few 7-3's.

I think pure matchup-based tier lists work better in games like Street Fighter, where more of the matchup numbers range between 4-6 and 6-4. I actually think there needs to be a higher amount of subjectivity in rankings in this game by how viable a character is.

 

[Phosferrax]

Is wakeup slide not only partly invincible?

Can't remember of the top of my head and I'm unable to test.

 

[Youphemism]

Can't remember of the top of my head and I'm unable to test.

*off

 

[Cossner]

1. It's still not that simple though. That means you can be counterpicked, and there's a weakness in your game, whereas the other character is balanced to do well against everyone. That's why there are legitimate arguments about Batman, who players like Forever King argue goes even against the vast majority of the cast, who could be top tier or just be high tier. At the same time, there's characters like Kenshi in mk9 who bops most of the cast but has a couple of arguable bad matchups, which put him under Kabal despite having a stronger advantage against most of the cast.

2. Then how are you making proper tiers by that? I agree that it should be taken into account, but there would be a need to quantify it.

Then you adjust it with a point system, just like BillStickers did in MK9. Just like DuckNation did a few months ago.

3. There has been a big debate about this though. For example, the sinestro players argue that their character can't be top tier because he gets bodied by a couple characters. Cowboy argues that Lex is a "shitter" because he has a near-unwinnable matchup against Sinestro, even though he does well against most of the cast. In a game with a good amount of lopsided matchups, a character that has 2-8's can create an anomaly within the tier list if they also have a few 7-3's.

And that's exactly why tier lists shouldn't be made by 1 person. Because 1 person doesn't have enough experience and knowledge to cover the entire cast.

You can't make a list based on "the tools a character has", because even if the tool sounds great on paper, it may not work against anyone.

 

[Youphemism]

And that's exactly why tier lists shouldn't be made by 1 person. Because 1 person doesn't have enough experience and knowledge to cover the entire cast.

You can't make a list based on "the tools a character has", because even if the tool sounds great on paper, it may not work against anyone.

Wow, someone doesn't appreciate REO's efforts to make guides for each character...you saying he doesn't have enough experience or knowledge to cover the entire cast?

A character's tools don't change per matchup though, how they use them or how effective those tools are against different characters varies. That's why a character's toolset is more effective in creating a tier list than how many matchups the character wins/loses, because no one can agree on who wins what but everyone can agree that a character has this tool or that tool and it is more effective in this matchup than that.

 

[Cossner]

Wow, someone doesn't appreciate REO's efforts to make guides for each character...you saying he doesn't have enough experience or knowledge to cover the entire cast?

Wait, what does Reo have to do with anything?
And no, Reo isn't the master of the 465 possible match ups in this game. And what does making a character combo and setups guides have to do anything with specific match up knowledge? Yes, of course I trust Reo's opinion because he sits down and learns the tools of each character, but unless he's one of those autistic people with magical powers on TV, then no, I don't think he knows the specifics of each and every match up for each and every character.
But seriously where did that Reo thing even come from? Are you even reading what I'm writing?

A character's tools don't change per matchup though, how they use them or how effective those tools are against different characters varies. That's why a character's toolset is more effective in creating a tier list than how many matchups the character wins/loses, because no one can agree on who wins what but everyone can agree that a character has this tool or that tool and it is more effective in this matchup than that.

No, wrong. An example, you said 111 xx super is something with Green Arrow right? (which is hilarious that something that requires 4 bars for 45% is suddenly broken now) Try doing that on BANE, who kills ALL of Green Arrow tools. Try to even get close to Raven, or Zod, or Superman, or MMH and do anything. Hell, Green Arrow has specific combos that only work on SOME characters, both midscreen and corner.
Just because he has the tools, doesn't mean he can even use them.

And that's why the whole tier list discussion is silly. Because you obviously don't know what works or not with some characters, yet you have an authority on saying how good or bad that character is. I'm sorry but to me, that makes no sense.

 

[Youphemism]

Wait, what does Reo have to do with anything?
And no, Reo isn't the master of the 465 possible match ups in this game. And what does making a character combo and setups guides have to do anything with specific match up knowledge? Yes, of course I trust Reo's opinion because he sits down and learns the tools of each character, but unless he's one of those autistic people with magical powers on TV, then no, I don't think he knows the specifics of each and every match up for each and every character.
But seriously where did that Reo thing even come from? Are you even reading what I'm writing?

No, wrong. An example, you said 111 xx super is something with Green Arrow right? (which is hilarious that something that requires 4 bars for 45% is suddenly broken now) Try doing that on BANE, who kills ALL of Green Arrow tools. Try to even get close to Raven, or Zod, or Superman, or MMH and do anything. Hell, Green Arrow has specific combos that only work on SOME characters, both midscreen and corner.
Just because he has the tools, doesn't mean he can even use them.

And that's why the whole tier list discussion is silly. Because you obviously don't know what works or not with some characters, yet you have an authority on saying how good or bad that character is. I'm sorry but to me, that makes no sense.

Yes I'm reading what you're writing, the REO thing was because you said '1 person doesn't have enough experience and knowledge to cover the entire cast'. By saying this you are implying that REO's guides are useless because he 'doesn't have enough experience or knowledge' to make them, and that's wrong, he has every right to based on his experience.

I clearly apologised because I didn't know it was backdashable and I have been proven wrong, that's the point of me making the tier list - discussion. Obviously I'm going to be wrong in some ways but so are you. Of course the different weird pieces of tech with a character aren't going to apply/work in SOME situations, but the actual tools themselves aren't changing. Bane can crush GA's tools but someone like Cyborg might not. Same tools, different matchup. It depends

I 'obviously' don't know? I somehow now think I have 'an authority'? Those are pretty arrogant things to say or assume of me, you aren't 100% right yourself you know, that's why discussion is important. I never said I had an authority, but I have EVERY right to have an opinion. Because that's what it is, my opinion, of course there are people who'll disagree with me and of course I'm going to be wrong about some things. I never once said my opinion is fact so don't assume I'm being an ass. Of course there'll never be a truly correct tier list, because no one agrees, but that's why discussion is important, so that everyone can prove the other wrong with facts ie. Green Arrow's 111 xx super IS in fact backdashable

And I hope you don't take anything I've said personally, I'm just one person who likes to discuss characters and learn new things. I made the tier list for discussion, not argument

 

[Cossner]

Yes I'm reading what you're writing, the REO thing was because you said '1 person doesn't have enough experience and knowledge to cover the entire cast'. By saying this you are implying that REO's guides are useless because he 'doesn't have enough experience or knowledge' to make them, and that's wrong, he has every right to based on his experience.

Yeah because making a guide for combos and setups is the same as having in-depth match up experience of every character over a period of years and years.
Totally the same.

I clearly apologised because I didn't know it was backdashable and I have been proven wrong, that's the point of me making the tier list - discussion. Obviously I'm going to be wrong in some ways but so are you. Of course the different weird pieces of tech with a character aren't going to apply/work in SOME situations, but the actual tools themselves aren't changing. Bane can crush GA's tools but someone like Cyborg might not. Same tools, different matchup. It depends

Then if you admit that you don't know all his tools, or how they play out in match ups, then why are you saying he's mid-low. Independently if he's mid-low or not, why do you say it is if you just don't know?

I 'obviously' don't know? I somehow now think I have 'an authority'? Those are pretty arrogant things to say or assume of me, you aren't 100% right yourself you know, that's why discussion is important. I never said I had an authority, but I have EVERY right to have an opinion. Because that's what it is, my opinion, of course there are people who'll disagree with me and of course I'm going to be wrong about some things. I never once said my opinion is fact so don't assume I'm being an ass. Of course there'll never be a truly correct tier list, because no one agrees, but that's why discussion is important, so that everyone can prove the other wrong with facts ie. Green Arrow's 111 xx super IS in fact backdashable

Yes, you obviously don't know that for example, 111 xx Up Haven Blast whiffs on Superman in the right corner of Batcave. There are some very specific things that unless you know your character very well, you'll never know. That's why I don't dare to post how good any other character is, except for my characters, which I've spent time learning.

And I hope you don't take anything I've said personally, I'm just one person who likes to discuss characters and learn new things. I made the tier list for discussion, not argument

I don't, I don't see why would I or would you take anything personally lol.

 

[Youphemism]

Yeah because making a guide for combos and setups is the same as having in-depth match up experience of every character over a period of years and years.
Totally the same.

Then if you admit that you don't know all his tools, or how they play out in match ups, then why are you saying he's mid-low. Independently if he's mid-low or not, why do you say it is if you just don't know?

Yes, you obviously don't know that for example, 111 xx Up Haven Blast whiffs on Superman in the right corner of Batcave. There are some very specific things that unless you know your character very well, you'll never know. That's why I don't dare to post how good any other character is, except for my characters, which I've spent time learning.

I don't, I don't see why would I or would you take anything personally lol.

Ok clear overexaggeration (this game hasn't been out for years and years) doesn't help your argument. And since when is every tier list based on every single tool in every single matchup in the game? It's not, and mine was based on MY OPINION of how the characters toolset fares in general. Not fact, my opinion.

Because I'm basing it on his toolset in general, I've mentioned several times that this is a toolset-based tier list not matchup based. Why are you even taking my opinion so seriously anyway? It's an opinion, and you might feel im wrong but you're not the only one. And I doubt you know everything also, so dont act like you do...

Well duh, I never said i knew everything. I'm taking into account the basics, the tools that are laid out in front of everyone clearly. You have a right to an opinion, if you want to speak about another character then by all means do so. Anyone that wants to take away that right is just being plain rude, instead they should be using facts to show why your opinion might be wrong not just saying you're wrong so you cant speak about this character. That's kinda closed-minded.

That's cool, just double checking lol

 

[Cossner]

Ok clear overexaggeration (this game hasn't been out for years and years) doesn't help your argument.

At this point in time in MK's life, people were saying Raiden was top S+tier.

And since when is every tier list based on every single tool in every single matchup in the game? It's not, and mine was based on MY OPINION of how the characters toolset fares in general. Not fact, my opinion.

Because then it's not a tier list, but a "character tool tier list".

Because I'm basing it on his toolset in general, I've mentioned several times that this is a toolset-based tier list not matchup based. Why are you even taking my opinion so seriously anyway? It's an opinion, and you might feel im wrong but you're not the only one. And I doubt you know everything also, so dont act like you do...

Because you asked me to argue with you. I don't know everything, where did you get that? Matter of fact, I wrote that because I don't know everything, I don't say wether a character I don't play is good or bad.
I don't get how am I "acting" that.

Well duh, I never said i knew everything. I'm taking into account the basics, the tools that are laid out in front of everyone clearly. You have a right to an opinion, if you want to speak about another character then by all means do so. Anyone that wants to take away that right is just being plain rude, instead they should be using facts to show why your opinion might be wrong not just saying you're wrong so you cant speak about this character. That's kinda closed-minded.

So you see my point?
You made a list and you asked why was it wrong. Then I posted why I think it could never be right. Now you're saying I'm rude because I stated my opinion. wut.

 

[Youphemism]

At this point in time in MK's life, people were saying Raiden was top S+tier.

Because then it's not a tier list, but a "character tool tier list".

Because you asked me to argue with you. I don't know everything, where did you get that? Matter of fact, I wrote that because I don't know everything, I don't say wether a character I don't play is good or bad.
I don't get how am I "acting" that.

So you see my point?
You made a list and you asked why was it wrong. Then I posted why I think it could never be right. Now you're saying I'm rude because I stated my opinion. wut.

After a year? Had all the patches been released by then also?

Wut. A tier list is a tier list man...and not all of them are based on matchups

I asked for discussion, not an argument. There's a difference between arguing with me and discussing with me why I'm wrong by stating facts. And I requested discussion to do with my tier list as I was eager to hear other peoples opinions, not argue about whether my tier list is fact and accurate or not.

I asked others to explain why they THOUGHT it MIGHT be wrong, not 'why it was wrong'. Theres nothing definite to say it is or isn't wrong. Did I say YOU were being rude? No, I was making a general statement about the fact you dont talk about characters besides ones you main. And your reply had nothing to do with what I asked for. I asked for explanations as to why I may have, in your opinion, placed some characters in the wrong tier, instead you posted that my tier list was based on the wrong thing and that (without explanation btw) Grundy is good. The only relevant thing you replied with was proving me wrong about the 111 xx super, but yet again you said nothing about the actual placings in the tier list. I get that you tend not to comment on characters you dont main but what about the ones you do? All I asked for was opinions on the placings in the tier list, not whether what I was basing it on was the best thing to base it on or not.

 

[Cossner]

After a year? Had all the patches been released by then also?

Yup, they ended patching the game 2011.

Wut. A tier list is a tier list man...and not all of them are based on matchups

Well, that's like saying a croissant is the same as a cake.

I asked for discussion, not an argument. There's a difference between arguing with me and discussing with me why I'm wrong by stating facts. And I requested discussion to do with my tier list as I was eager to hear other peoples opinions, not argue about whether my tier list is fact and accurate or not.

Wait but, I did tell you why I thought you were wrong stating facts.
Dude, you stated Raven, Grundy, NW and Hawkgirl are either same or worse than GA. That's absolutely wrong at many levels lol.

I asked others to explain why they THOUGHT it MIGHT be wrong, not 'why it was wrong'. wat Theres nothing definite to say it is or isn't wrong. Did I say YOU were being rude? No, I was making a general statement about the fact you dont talk about characters besides ones you main.

I didn't understand what you were trying to say here.

And your reply had nothing to do with what I asked for. I asked for explanations as to why I may have, in your opinion, placed some characters in the wrong tier, instead you posted that my tier list was based on the wrong thing and that (without explanation btw) Grundy is good.

Because Raven, NW, Grundy and Hawkgirl do not have 15+ losing match ups.
And I know Grundy is very good because I just spent the last 3 months playing against a perfectly competent Grundy offline.

The only relevant thing you replied with was proving me wrong about the 111 xx super, but yet again you said nothing about the actual placings in the tier list. I get that you tend not to comment on characters you dont main but what about the ones you do? All I asked for was opinions on the placings in the tier list, not whether what I was basing it on was the best thing to base it on or not.

How can I place my characters in a list, where ALL the characters are being considered. You wanna know the list of the characters I know how to use? In order:
-Aquaman
-Batman
-Hawkgirl
-Green Arrow
-Cyborg

There.

 

[BunLantern]

He doesn't win it but he doesn't lose it.

Agreed, it's even. Both need to be careful while zoning.

 

[fr stack]

The op is bad, the reasons are bad, and the people posting aren't any better.

Overall the whole thread is fail. FAIL!!!!

Btw. Ga 111 super can be back dashed. FAIL!

can grundy ? ive tried and never once gotten it

 

[Youphemism]

Yup, they ended patching the game 2011.

Well, that's like saying a croissant is the same as a cake.

Wait but, I did tell you why I thought you were wrong stating facts.
Dude, you stated Raven, Grundy, NW and Hawkgirl are either same or worse than GA. That's absolutely wrong at many levels lol.

I didn't understand what you were trying to say here.

Because Raven, NW, Grundy and Hawkgirl do not have 15+ losing match ups.
And I know Grundy is very good because I just spent the last 3 months playing against a perfectly competent Grundy offline.

How can I place my characters in a list, where ALL the characters are being considered. You wanna know the list of the characters I know how to use? In order:
-Aquaman
-Batman
-Hawkgirl
-Green Arrow
-Cyborg

There.

Some people had an opinion that Raiden was good, fine, just because your opinion differs doesn't mean it's right. But that doesn't mean they're right either don't get me wrong.

No it isn't :L a tier list is a tier list, one tier list might be based on the number of winning and losing and even matchups, one might be based on toolsets, but they're both tier lists.

It's absolutely wrong IN YOUR OPINION. Fair enough you know arrow better than me but that doesn't mean my entire tier list is wrong. It's wrong in your opinion, all you needed to say was 'Arrow needs to be lower because he has more losing matchups' or something. Playing one good player of a character offline could make any character look good, so that's not really a valid reason to move someone up or down tiers.

Because you know the characters, you can make an educated guess as to where they lie in comparison to others. I'm sure you understand most characters to an extent, either from having played against them or watching tournament footage of them or going into practice with them. You're more than welcome to give your reasons as to why you feel the characters you know should be placed differently if you do

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

can grundy ? ive tried and never once gotten it

not sure if it is character specific.

I never did it before until FR when I was playing @7L in casuals. Then I did it on my first try. lol

 

[Pan1cMode]

Batslut is easier than MMH and potentially better IMO , MMH actually has a learning curve , and bane and batman should not be compared to the likes of WW and Supes.

While I agree she may be easier in the short term to learn, she is most definitely not better than Martian. Once you get past vortex, BG actually does have a bit of a learning curve especially for her footsie, baiting and punishment game. Everyone's combos in injustice are minimal execution so I won't even bother with that.

Ok, I'll repeat it for the 100000th time.
Sorry for the quality, I just recorded this with the ipad:

Please also note, saying anything Super with Green Arrow is the same as saying "Kano is not bad because his X-Ray is great".

While I agree with you RE super, GA does have an unavoidable super reset from whifffed standing 1 after ice arrow (which I'm sure you already know about)

 

[fr stack]

not sure if it is character specific.

I never did it before until FR when I was playing @7L in casuals. Then I did it on my first try. lol

damn im gonna have to practice the timing then