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Flash Facts: Matchup Discussion

doomfarmer

unorthodox
I'm always up for games if anyone wants to play. I'm on Xbox though, and most of you are probably PSN. But if anyone is interested my gt is 'doomfarmer'.

And @Redk9 as far as Adam having no bad matchups, I do know that Slayer specifically did not use his Adam against Whiteboi's scarecrow at CEO. Now I don't know enough about that matchup to comment in depth but i'm just saying he might not be as invincible as some people seem to think. I believe Flash handles him very well.
 

DarksydeDash

You know me as RisingShieldBro online.
@AK Harold and I ran a large set and the match-up isn't too Bad for Flash because Running Man stance let's him low profile a lot. If he gets a serious life lead, he can just sit back and build super to close rounds out. That being said, the match-up needs more exploration because Fate can definitely keep him out and abuse healing orbs. Both characters are also free on wake-up.
 
Eh, I don't know about some of these numbers.

Aquaman and Green Arrow are probably more 4-6.

Black Adam, Darkseid, Deadshot and Harley are probably 5-5. Haven't played a lot of Red Hoods yet but as of now it also feels 5-5 to me.

Poison Ivy is feeling 4-6 to me right now. Anyone else seem to be having any difficulty with her? Her B2D2 string has ridiculous reach and is only -4 and leaves her with great spacing on block. Between that, her great back dash, F3, vines and trait, getting in on her is a nightmare. I going to start popping trait in neutral against her to see how that works.
 

doomfarmer

unorthodox
@Zenrage
I agree the Ivy matchup feels tough and could be 4-6., that was one of the characters I didn't have a lot of matchup experience with. Flash / Harley being 4-6 in Harley's favor I originally took from @FOREVER EL1TE's matchup chart in the HQ forums, I feel like that's pretty accurate. A handful of numbers are from @HappyPow's feedback, and when I think of the best Flash players out there right now I think of him next to @Zyphox and @HoneyBee. Hopefully those other guys can chime in as well at some point.
 
@doomfarmer

Granted I may not be playing the same people, but this is the reasoning from my experience for the numbers I've given:

Aquaman: The biggest change is that he got a frame trap from B123, but we're able to back dash the D1 or punish with armored F3 even if they cancel into Trident Rush. The trait has a longer cooldown than before and also causes him to take full damage while blocking during his trait. Also we have Sonic Pound which will launch regardless of his trait; since Lightning Kick is no longer safe I use SP cancels more often than LK anyway. Within a certain range we can punish From the Deep with BF2. The advantage he has is in the neutral, but it doesn't feel enough to warrant 3-7 in my opinion.

Green Arrow: Match up plays out like it used to IGAU. Walk him to the corner taking the chip and avoiding his DB1. We lost Lightning Charge, but we can still threaten with RMS to punish his DB1 if you time it correctly. The only thing Arrow got was the ability to meter burn his DF1 but that really only gives him safety, no follow up pressure. Oki game stays the same as well, make the read for which wake up he will use and act accordingly. Patience is the key. In IGAU the match up was considered to be 5-5 IIRC, even though it felt 4-6 to me, and not much has changed other than the changes to Flash, but they don't seem bad enough to have made it 3-7.

Darkseid and Deadshot: While the changes with zoning recovery are annoying, walking in and meter burn roll still get the job done. Once you get in, you can stay in, unless they open you up and send you back to full screen. They both have low defense so we get good damage on them when we touch them. With Deadshot you need to be ready to pressure between his staggers. Sure he has a 50/50 but they don't hit that hard. If you're patient and only take chip from his zoning, you're eventually going to corner him. With Darkseid, if he doesn't have trait out to make his teleports safe, you can punish the air teleport with Ji1 on reaction and with the grounded one with D1D2 or you at least get pressure and he came right to you. He still can get mix ups though if he gets his trait out, hits hard, and should have the meter advantage. On knock down he has a safe wake up that can give him pressure if he spends the bar. Feels even to me.

Black Adam: I don't see how Flash wins. Sure we can punish his advancing high with D2 but if they're spacing properly, you should be worried about the overhead that's going to open you up for big damage to be blocking low in the hopes he's going to throw our his high starting string. He has a lot of plus frames and his meter burn low lightning and lightning hands on block after block strings space him well enough to reset the neutral. His keep away game is strong as well. When he touches you he can deal as much damage as our traited corner combos and without his trait he deals more damage than us without our trait, midscreen at least. The equalizing factor is the fact that once we're in we're in, but between the chip and damage we can take trying to get that touch, it feels pretty 5-5.

Harley: Another match up where much didn't change. She has the new trait, but RMS 1 can punish the call in the neutral from almost full screen because of the start up. The dog still comes out, but she still gets hit and knocked down from the RMS 1 and it's your turn for pressure and you just . The only way she can force chip is from the cup cake bombs or meter burn cupcake bombs into gunshot. She has low defense so one trait combo take half her life bar. The neutral is in her favor slightly, but you have the damage to counteract that, and you both have the overhead low game. Seems pretty even.
 
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HappyPow

Noob
@doomfarmer

Granted I may not be playing the same people, but this is the reasoning from my experience for the numbers I've given:

Aquaman: The biggest change is that he got a frame trap from B123, but we're able to back dash the D1 or punish with armored F3 even if they cancel into Trident Rush. The trait has a longer cooldown than before and also causes him to take full damage while blocking during his trait. Also we have Sonic Pound which will launch regardless of his trait; since Lightning Kick is no longer safe I use SP cancels more often than LK anyway. Within a certain range we can punish From the Deep with BF2. The advantage he has is in the neutral, but it doesn't feel enough to warrant 3-7 in my opinion.

Green Arrow: Match up plays out like it used to IGAU. Walk him to the corner taking the chip and avoiding his DB1. We lost Lightning Charge, but we can still threaten with RMS to punish his DB1 if you time it correctly. The only thing Arrow got was the ability to meter burn his DF1 but that really only gives him safety, no follow up pressure. Oki game stays the same as well, make the read for which wake up he will use and act accordingly. Patience is the key. In IGAU the match up was considered to be 5-5 IIRC, even though it felt 4-6 to me, and not much has changed other than the changes to Flash, but they don't seem bad enough to have made it 3-7.

Darkseid and Deadshot: While the changes with zoning recovery are annoying, walking in and meter burn roll still get the job done. Once you get in, you can stay in, unless they open you up and send you back to full screen. They both have low defense so we get good damage on them when we touch them. With Deadshot you need to be ready to pressure between his staggers. Sure he has a 50/50 but they don't hit that hard. If you're patient and only take chip from his zoning, you're eventually going to corner him. With Darkseid, if he doesn't have trait out to make his teleports safe, you can punish the air teleport with Ji1 on reaction and with the grounded one with D1D2 or you at least get pressure and he came right to you. He still can get mix ups though if he gets his trait out, hits hard, and should have the meter advantage. On knock down he has a safe wake up that can give him pressure if he spends the bar. Feels even to me.

Black Adam: I don't see how Flash wins. Sure we can punish his advancing high with D2 but if they're spacing properly, you should be worried about the overhead that's going to open you up for big damage to be blocking low in the hopes he's going to throw our his high starting string. He has a lot of plus frames and his meter burn low lightning and lightning hands on block after block strings space him well enough to reset the neutral. His keep away game is strong as well. When he touches you he can deal as much damage as our traited corner combos and without his trait he deals more damage than us without our trait, midscreen at least. The equalizing factor is the fact that once we're in we're in, but between the chip and damage we can take trying to get that touch, it feels pretty 5-5.

Harley: Another match up where much didn't change. She has the new trait, but RMS 1 can punish the call in the neutral from almost full screen because of the start up. The dog still comes out, but she still gets hit and knocked down from the RMS 1 and it's your turn for pressure and you just . The only way she can force chip is from the cup cake bombs or meter burn cupcake bombs into gunshot. She has low defense so one trait combo take half her life bar. The neutral is in her favor slightly, but you have the damage to counteract that, and you both have the overhead low game. Seems pretty even.
Dude you just said it.... If you get hit by the OH, it is on you. BA has no low starters. Thing is you get in range of the OH and you are not blocking it : is not a well spacing done by the BA but a wrong spacing coming from you.
Flash can phase through DK and punish with 11 (aight hard to do online) indeed D2 is good vs F1 and gives you trait into restand or at least a setup. If the Flash player doesn't do any mistakes like Backdashing when he has the pressure (It happens to me sometimes lol when my RMS doesn't come out) then I do not know how BA can win this.
Honestly I'm a BA main since inj1. Still maining BA in this one and picked Flash as my secondary. I main both. And if you tell Flash gets out zoned, I'll tell you BA's zoning is a fact, he has tools for that.... but those tools are not good zoning tools.
Then BA has damages but Flash has damages/mix/plus frames/meter build/ vortex.
 

Kotal_Wannabe

AKA AndyPandy
@Zenrage
I agree the Ivy matchup feels tough and could be 4-6., that was one of the characters I didn't have a lot of matchup experience with. Flash / Harley being 4-6 in Harley's favor I originally took from @FOREVER EL1TE's matchup chart in the HQ forums, I feel like that's pretty accurate. A handful of numbers are from @HappyPow's feedback, and when I think of the best Flash players out there right now I think of him next to @Zyphox and @HoneyBee. Hopefully those other guys can chime in as well at some point.
I did see FOREVER EL1TE's list, though I disagree with a few of his matchup numbers, I honestly don't think either harley or flash have anything that makes the match one sided, both have the tools to win and win well. It's a very even matchup tbh.
 
Dude you just said it.... If you get hit by the OH, it is on you. BA has no low starters. Thing is you get in range of the OH and you are not blocking it : is not a well spacing done by the BA but a wrong spacing coming from you.
Flash can phase through DK and punish with 11 (aight hard to do online) indeed D2 is good vs F1 and gives you trait into restand or at least a setup. If the Flash player doesn't do any mistakes like Backdashing when he has the pressure (It happens to me sometimes lol when my RMS doesn't come out) then I do not know how BA can win this.
Honestly I'm a BA main since inj1. Still maining BA in this one and picked Flash as my secondary. I main both. And if you tell Flash gets out zoned, I'll tell you BA's zoning is a fact, he has tools for that.... but those tools are not good zoning tools.
Then BA has damages but Flash has damages/mix/plus frames/meter build/ vortex.
I'm not the one saying block low. But the way you're saying it makes it seem like BA cannot open people up; just because he doesn't have a low starter doesn't mean he can't open people up through footsies. He has the same tools in every match up and still manages to open people up.

He has block string pressure for days from plus strings and trait cancels, all of which space him nicely denying guaranteed reversal pressure, deals good chip damage, has guaranteed damage from trait and can hit just as hard as Flash's best trait corner combos anywhere on the screen.

When we get in and get the knock down, we're in, so I feel that balances the advantages BA has in the neutral.

I don't think Flash loses the match up in any way but it does feel even to me but that's just my opinion as of now.
 
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HappyPow

Noob
I'm not the one saying block low. But the way you're saying it makes it seem like BA cannot open people up; just because he doesn't have a low starter doesn't mean he can't open people up through footsies. He has the same tools in every match up and still manages to open people up.

He has block string pressure for days from plus strings and trait cancels, all of which space him nicely denying guaranteed reversal pressure, deals good chip damage, has guaranteed damage from trait and can hit just as hard as Flash's best trait corner combos anywhere on the screen.

When we get in and get the knock down, we're in, so I feel that balances the advantages BA has in the neutral.

I don't think Flash loses the match up in any way but it does feel even to me but that's just my opinion as of now.
What is opening people up?
 

HappyPow

Noob
Really not sure if you're trolling or not. Whiff punishing, baiting a throw, well timed dive kicks, well timed low lightning, F3 cancels after conditioning with low lightning, armored F/B3 in neutral...
So all of this is opening people up?
Honestly to me whiff punishes are not "people opened up" but peeps making mistakes. Baiting throws I guess could count as it but ... baiting throws??? I mean a throw is a way to open people up lol how can you bait a throw lol
Dive kicks? The only way I agree on is that since you can get it either crossing up or not.
I think the way I define opening people up would be different from yours.
Flash can open people up. B22 RMS cancel D12. Once conditionned you can go for F2 or a grab.
BA him on the other has the grab and that's it (reactable). Only guaranteed stuff most of the time after trait cancel is D1. If you're blocking low after a trait cancel, it is a mistake (it happens to me. I'm not ashamed).
What I mean is you can open people up through the many options you have during the mind games state. Flash has a lot of options for instance even after his D12 which is +2. BA on the other hand has D1 most of the time.
I'm not an expert tho so you might have defined "opening people up" well! I hope what I tried to explai was still understandable lol
 
So all of this is opening people up?
Honestly to me whiff punishes are not "people opened up" but peeps making mistakes. Baiting throws I guess could count as it but ... baiting throws??? I mean a throw is a way to open people up lol how can you bait a throw lol
Dive kicks? The only way I agree on is that since you can get it either crossing up or not.
I think the way I define opening people up would be different from yours.
Flash can open people up. B22 RMS cancel D12. Once conditionned you can go for F2 or a grab.
BA him on the other has the grab and that's it (reactable). Only guaranteed stuff most of the time after trait cancel is D1. If you're blocking low after a trait cancel, it is a mistake (it happens to me. I'm not ashamed).
What I mean is you can open people up through the many options you have during the mind games state. Flash has a lot of options for instance even after his D12 which is +2. BA on the other hand has D1 most of the time.
I'm not an expert tho so you might have defined "opening people up" well! I hope what I tried to explai was still understandable lol
I guess I should have said he finds a way to get his damage, but yeah.

The throw bait is a thing a lot of them do, but if you try it against less experienced players it probably wouldn't work because they'd just be pressing buttons regardless. They do a trait cancel, walk forward a slight bit to make you think they're going to throw you, then either to an armored F3 or raw F3 so they're airborne causing the enemy throw to whiff and they get the combo. He also has trait cancels into grabs that do more than a regular grab because of the trait. Like I said too, I've seen BA's open people up by canceling into F3 from a string after conditioning them to expect low lightning, and then as you've said he has dive kick cross ups in the corner.

The whole point I'm getting at is he has his ways of getting damage and he probably has the best damage in the game. His footsies are excellent and Flash can have issues in the neutral in this game. Black Adam wins the neutral and has better meter build, but Flash has the better oki on knock down. Seems even to me as of now, but who knows, Flash could win the match up and I might not see it yet.
 

doomfarmer

unorthodox
This is why we really needed this thread. For the record none of the matchup numbers are anywhere near final obviously. We're supposed to argue about this stuff so good job so far lol. If you guys want I can put a (?) next to the matchup numbers that we're having a hard time agreeing on, just to make sure we all know it's up for debate when you glance the list.
 

HappyPow

Noob
@doomfarmer
That's alright, I don't think anyone actually thinks the numbers are concrete as of now anyway.
Lol it is all about debates anyway. BA "wins zoning" but RMS is a good counter to it. To me in the neutral is it is pretty much balanced even if it is slightly better for BA cause of DK. Then close Flash is way much better cause BA can't do anything.
 

kelevra

Steel cable bungee jumper
Can anyone explain why some of y'all think that supes is a 5-5? Imo he bullies flash to death with f23breath alone. The only way to counter it is with a well timed 112 or d2 while those get blown up by a multitude of supes options. Not to mention that supes can hit as hard as flash when he traits up and his rising grab and his flying punch both are a nightmare to punish unless you see it coming from a mile away.
 

HappyPow

Noob
Can anyone explain why some of y'all think that supes is a 5-5? Imo he bullies flash to death with f23breath alone. The only way to counter it is with a well timed 112 or d2 while those get blown up by a multitude of supes options. Not to mention that supes can hit as hard as flash when he traits up and his rising grab and his flying punch both are a nightmare to punish unless you see it coming from a mile away.
Whut? I think a lot of char struggle vs f23 breathe, like BA for example but vs every characters Supes has free mind games with that. Doesn't mean everyone loses to him.
Flash has a great D2 to kill his air dash. He can go through his zoning pretty much easily. Rising grab is not hard to punish and only annoying thing in the MU imo is the low crushing Superman Punch. Once close Flash is a nightmare to most of the characters. You just need to be careful on the fact that either you have to be in either you have to be out of the range of F2 to punish it.
 

doomfarmer

unorthodox
Can anyone help me vs Robin? I keep getting the mop
I still feel this could be in Robin's favor to be honest. Not by much though. It's probably just online matches that make me feel that way. Typically Robins like to just go in and mash buttons on you so you're gonna have to really familiarize yourself with his strings. Know that he doesn't have a low starter to open you up (trait is another story), so stand blocking is fine. I believe he only has one string with a low in it that he can combo off of, and the low is the 2nd hit of the string. Look for that so you don't get opened up. Same way you'd fight Supergirl, you're always aware of that low on 2nd hit. So you're blocking him and he's mashing, he's going to go for that birdarang, as soon as he throws it you have to react. You'll get a combo.

Ok so now you're getting your knockdowns when he's pressuring you, Robins looooove to go for that wakeup attack. Lucky you he's not great on wakeup and you happen to be the fucking Flash. Pretty sure his specials are unsafe unless he spends meter. Go into practice mode and learn your punish on some of his most used specials. Most of them give you plenty of time to punish. Except assassin strike. That one is pretty tight, especially online. Practice this one a lot. Set the AI to always block and reversal mode assassin strike. The animation for that move is weird on block. When you block it, he still charges forward so it looks like you're stuck in block stun longer than you actually are. You can punish it with your b,f 1 special, or standing 1 combo, or down+1 combo. Just takes practice. Wish we had a 6 frame poke like everyone else in the game but fuck me right? Anyway, if you're in a laggy online game and having trouble punishing that move, throw punish is an easy bet. You just don't get the damage obviously.

Other than that you're just playing your usual game.
 
@WB-chan

Doom covered it well. When you're outside of his button range keep threatening with RMS. If he tries to throw his projectile you can punish it with RMS 1. Then like he said, Robin's like to try to cancel mid string into the projectile, usually off of B2 I think it is, it's the one where he stabs straight, so watch for that and you can get a F2 punish for big damage. If he max spaces it, B2 won't reach, so it's safer to go for F2. Also if he tries to cancel into his trait you can either punish or start pressure depending on the string/distance he is at. It recovers quicker than his projectile so if he's not in D12 range then you just have to start pressure.
 
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Very important too is punishing his whiffs with BF2. He has very little presence on the screen and you can approach from anywhere with RMS and cancels. However, if the player is godlike with patience they can catch your errors too. I do think Flash wins just because our knock down and corner game are far superior to his AND we can pop trait to force mistakes.
 
It definitely feels 5-5 to me now. I don't know if it feels Flash favored yet, to me at least. We have the better oki for sure, but he has better buttons and if he does get a hit he can get good pressure and overhead low mix ups with trait.