Strategy Optimizing the Venom Time in Bane Gameplay

[GGA Max]

Abstract:
Bane has venom for a fixed amount of time, so during that time he should make the most of it. Fundamentally, characters need to output highest damage, but during venom, Bane should be working on highest damage per second. Another strong parameter is distance, Bane needs to end specials with lowest distance between fighters to start his next attack.

All data taken with a stop watch while Bane was recorded and played back by the CPU, non-venomed. Please report any corrections that need to be made.


Time:

Special ___Duration(seconds)___Damage_______Damage per Second
DBF3_________2.9__________16_______________5.5______
--EX _________4.4__________21_______________4.8______
BF2__________1.8__________ 7_______________ 3.9______
--EX__________2.1_________14_______________6.7_______
DB2__________1.1__________10_______________9.1______
--EX__________1.9__________19______________10.0______
BF1 (min*)_____1.8__________15_______________8.3______
--EX__________2.7__________22_______________8.1______
BF1 (max*)_____2.3__________15_______________6.5______
--EX__________2.9__________22_______________7.6______

*Where min and max are the closest and furthest possible distances to do the BF1, run.


Distance:

The following list shows Damage per Second in order of how far the special pushes the opponent away, with the closes being first.

Distance is measured in "Blocks" or "Tiles" on the ground in Themyscira.

Damage per Second per Block = (Damage per Second) divided by (Blocks separating characters after the attack)
A number that when higher, means more damage and closer to your opponent after the attack, relative to other possibilities.

Roll mode: On

Special___Damage per Second___Blocks (Themyscira)___Damage per Second per Block
DBF3_________5.5_______________.9_________________6.1_________
BF1 (max)_____6.5_______________1.5_________________4.3__________
BF1-EX (min)___8.1_______________2.6_________________3.1__________
BF1-EX (max)___7.6_______________2.6_________________2.9_________
DBF3-EX______4.8_______________2.7_________________1.7__________
DB2__________9.1_______________2.9_________________3.1__________
BF1 (min)______8.3_______________2.9_________________2.9__________
BF2__________3.9________________4__________________.9__________
BF2-EX_______6.7________________6__________________1.1__________
DB2-EX_______10.0_______________7.5________________1.3_________


Roll mode: Off

Special___Damage per Second___Blocks (Themyscira)___Damage per Second per Block
DBF3_________5.5_______________.9____________________6.1________
DB2__________9.1 _______________1____________________9.1________
BF1 (max)______6.5_______________1.5___________________4.3________
BF2__________3.9_______________2.3___________________1.7________
BF1-EX (min)___8.1_______________2.6____________________3.1________
BF1-EX (max)___7.6_______________2.6___________________2.9_______
DBF3-EX______4.8_______________2.7____________________1.8________
BF1 (min)______8.3_______________2.9___________________2.9_______
BF2-EX_______6.7_______________4.3____________________1.6________
DB2-EX_______10.0______________7.5____________________1.3________


Discussion (Just my opinion, discuss below):
There does not seem to be one perfect solution for what special to use ALL THE TIME. Some specials are good, decent, horrible on block. While their damage, damage per second, and damage per second per distance shows a different optimal special. Start up times are also a consideration.

Conclusion (will be added after hearing community feedback):

 

[D_Matt_Ma]

It's important to also notice WHEN the damage is distributed. This is important in the event venom is debuffing. Since Body Press does its damage towards the end, the uppercut may be better when you're low on Venom time. Also to note just how awesome tackle is in the grand scheme of Venom.

 

[GGA Max]

It's important to also notice WHEN the damage is distributed. This is important in the event venom is debuffing. Since Body Press doe sits damage towards the end, the uppercut may be better when you're low on Venom time. Also to note just how awesome tackle is in the grand scheme of Venom.

I agree. Maybe combos ending in a run are actually better. This should also be researched.

 

[Doombawkz]

The charge also has the added advantage of carrying over buffs (such as armor, projectile immunity, armor breaking) if you start it before venom runs out, however it will not carry over the damage buffs. If you need to make time out of level 3 venom cooldown, throwing a charge will definitely surprise your opponents when they try to stuff it with a MB b.3 or projectile only to be met with a shoulder drop.

 

[D_Matt_Ma]

This almost lends the theory that dealing less damage in less time is more important than doing more damage in more time so long as Venom is activated, with the goal being to land BF1 or DB2 as a combo ender and avoid Body Press and DB1 at all cost. Hmmm... I'll have to think about this.

 

[Doombawkz]

Pretty much the MBs might be for time expenditure to some measure.

 

[GGA Max]

Do either of you know if 1,2xxbf1 connects? And is it better damage that 1,1,3xxbody press? I can't check until later.

 

[Doombawkz]

Do either of you know if 1,2xxbf1 connects? And is it better damage that 1,1,3xxbody press? I can't check until later.

12 charge doesn't connect, they fall too fast to my knowledge.

 

[SUPARNOVAX]

Too much unnecessary math. NRS needs to remove the debuff cuts and that's it. You either do normal damage or you do increased damage on top of armoring past people. Having to worry about doing less damage is the stupidest thing ever for this character.

 

[Doombawkz]

Too much unnecessary math. NRS needs to remove the debuff cuts and that's it. You either do normal damage or you do increased damage on top of armoring past people. Having to worry about doing less damage is the stupidest thing ever for this character.

Yeah because lord forbid we happen to do in the area of 200% what everyone else does at level 3 venom on top of having 18 or so seconds of free armor and at level 2 we outclass most people in terms of raw damage as well. I mean obviously everyone else in the cast gets an armored projectile immune dash and overhead, armor breaking properties, and a great forward and backdash at all times.

Like if we got no debuffs, we'd probably get our damage "normalized" so hard venom wouldn't even be worth it. I like things how they are.

 

[GGA Max]

Too much unnecessary math. NRS needs to remove the debuff cuts and that's it. You either do normal damage or you do increased damage on top of armoring past people. Having to worry about doing less damage is the stupidest thing ever for this character.

We can venom up while doing anything and no start up time. No other character can do that.

Like doombawkz said, he'd be imbalanced if he was in ALL the time.

 

[Doombawkz]

To that note, don't forget to mention we can use venom to nullify pushblock.
Its not "widely" known, but its worth mentioning you can buffer out 4(being trait) into actions while being pushed.

I think 4 d.b.f.3 is the best connector since you'll snag them before they can get away.

 

[SUPARNOVAX]

Yeah because lord forbid we happen to do in the area of 200% what everyone else does at level 3 venom on top of having 18 or so seconds of free armor and at level 2 we outclass most people in terms of raw damage as well. I mean obviously everyone else in the cast gets an armored projectile immune dash and overhead, armor breaking properties, and a great forward and backdash at all times.

Like if we got no debuffs, we'd probably get our damage "normalized" so hard venom wouldn't even be worth it. I like things how they are.

Let's not kid ourselves, Bane has some capacity to deal a lot of damage in one burst but the opportunities to achieve them are incredibly difficult. With the way other characters play out in the higher end, you would have to be completely perfect in assessing the venom without getting hit during the drawbacks. If you mess up and get hit during the drawbacks, you're going to eat a 50% BnB that would otherwise be 30% on everyone else.

The drawback is completely unfair to this character whose already got mediocre wakeup and defense to begin with on top of the amount of work he needs to corner people.

Venom debuff needs to be removed. Even if they remove it, there's no real justification of lowering his damage more. His base damage is mediocre. If they reduce the venom'd damage I'm okay with it since he it makes up for poor defense.

 

[SUPARNOVAX]

We can venom up while doing anything and no start up time. No other character can do that.

Like doombawkz said, he'd be imbalanced if he was in ALL the time.

You can't stay in all the time even if you wanted right now. Eat 30% chip damage from zoning, another 40% from meter burn stage objects. Get clashed and if you lose, eat it all over again. It doesn't really look good for Bane overall. NRS has a lot of work to do.


edit: So let me ask you guys this, do you guys actually feel the drawbacks are justified? Losing damage, speed, defense, and having the opponent a chance of coming back on Bane (whether he did any damage or not during the venom) for a lot more damage.

Meanwhile there's no drawbacks for damage and armor traits for other characters.

 

[Doombawkz]

Let's not kid ourselves, Bane has some capacity to deal a lot of damage in one burst but the opportunities to achieve them are incredibly difficult. With the way other characters play out in the higher end, you would have to be completely perfect in assessing the venom without getting hit during the drawbacks. If you mess up and get hit during the drawbacks, you're going to eat a 50% BnB that would otherwise be 30% on everyone else.

The drawback is completely unfair to this character whose already got mediocre wakeup and defense to begin with on top of the amount of work he needs to corner people.

Venom debuff needs to be removed. Even if they remove it, there's no real justification of lowering his damage more. His base damage is mediocre. If they reduce the venom'd damage I'm okay with it since he it makes up for poor defense.

You realize our damage with level 2 venom is on par with BA's damage, only without using any meter...
At base damage, we pretty much match most characters but Bane isn't made to do damage outside of trait. He is meant to keep momentum by denying the opponent options while he is in trait. Also you have 6 seconds to bypass the debuff at 3. If you play it right, you can outright prevent about 3 to 4 seconds of it by ending your combo with a MB command grab, MB double punch, MB uppercut...

Pretty much if you run out of venom, MB your combo ender (outside of charge) and sit back. Even if they get back in, they won't be able to do the full amount. You don't have to be perfect, just good enough to avoid the worst of it. Meanwhile even if they get the 50% combo, you just ate about 70-90% of their life so we still win the trade.

His wake-up is mediocre? I'll keep that in mind while my huge hitbox neutral on block fully invulnerable double punch is hitting people overhead and stuffing their meaties.

The movement debuff needs to be taken off, outside of that you are asking for wayyyy tooo much. He is fine as he is, and if we remove the venom debuff he wouldn't play anywhere near the same. We'd be doing 6 seconds of superman's trait, then 6 more of superman + grundy power chain's worth of damage just to go back to doing 30% or so again? Even as a Bane main, I wouldn't want this for my character. Its asking for a paddlin from the NRS nerf bat.


EDIT: To your question, hell yes its justified. We do more than any other character, break armor, ignore projectiles... No other character can do all of that at the same time. No other character gets free armored overheads, has command grabs, and does the damage we do. If you can't manage the venom, feel the bite. If you can, you become a juggernaut. Its as simple as management, but in trade for all we get, I feel its worth it on a 6 second timer.

Superman does less damage, has a bigger cooldown, and doesn't get projectile immunity or the free armor. Name me one other character who benefits as much as we do, and only has to run for 6 seconds when half of his specials cover most of that period?

 

[SUPARNOVAX]

You realize our damage with level 2 venom is on par with BA's damage, only without using any meter...
At base damage, we pretty much match most characters but Bane isn't made to do damage outside of trait. He is meant to keep momentum by denying the opponent options while he is in trait. Also you have 6 seconds to bypass the debuff at 3. If you play it right, you can outright prevent about 3 to 4 seconds of it by ending your combo with a MB command grab, MB double punch, MB uppercut...

Pretty much if you run out of venom, MB your combo ender (outside of charge) and sit back. Even if they get back in, they won't be able to do the full amount. You don't have to be perfect, just good enough to avoid the worst of it. Meanwhile even if they get the 50% combo, you just ate about 70-90% of their life so we still win the trade.

His wake-up is mediocre? I'll keep that in mind while my huge hitbox neutral on block fully invulnerable double punch is hitting people overhead and stuffing their meaties.

The movement debuff needs to be taken off, outside of that you are asking for wayyyy tooo much. He is fine as he is, and if we remove the venom debuff he wouldn't play anywhere near the same. We'd be doing 6 seconds of superman's trait, then 6 more of superman + grundy power chain's worth of damage just to go back to doing 30% or so again? Even as a Bane main, I wouldn't want this for my character. Its asking for a paddlin from the NRS nerf bat.

No disrespect but I'd love to see you go out to some tournaments and play some real people offline. Because preaching things on paper doesn't really bode well at the moment.

It's brutal as hell here in NYC I'll tell you that.

So is that a yes or no to justifying losing damage, defense and speed for some damage and armor priority? I mean wouldn't you take slightly reduced damage for losing the damage, defense and speed cuts?

 

[Doombawkz]

No disrespect but I'd love to see you go out to some tournaments and play some real people offline. Because preaching things on paper doesn't really bode well at the moment.

It's brutal as hell here in NYC I'll tell you that.

PND used pre-patch 1 Bane against pre-normalization Batmen and Supermen and Black Adams and managed to pull 5th, Max can probably vouch that most of what I say is at least somewhat accurate. You are the reason people believe all we do is cry for buffs.

We don't really need anything except maybe the removal of the movement speed debuff, and that's an unnecessary luxury.

 

[SUPARNOVAX]

PND used pre-patch 1 Bane against pre-normalization Batmen and Supermen and Black Adams and managed to pull 5th, Max can probably vouch that most of what I say is at least somewhat accurate. You are the reason people believe all we do is cry for buffs.

We don't really need anything except maybe the removal of the movement speed debuff, and that's an unnecessary luxury.

I don't know how Mustard's scene is. The tourny archive he posted a while back was great. I liked what was shown early on when people were still learning the game. But we're looking to draw data from contemporary results and achievements. Fighting games evolve and change a lot. You can't really keep that one achievement he had weeks ago to apply with current situations. Even if he got that far with Bane early on, I'm sure those Batman and Superman players weren't even near the level of REO/DarthArma/KDZ.

I've never really felt like he needs big overhaul buffs, but I've always been pretty adamant about his venom cuts being a set back in his design. He's not as threatening as a lot of people are making him to be overall and he's considered a non-threat in tournaments. Removing his debuff setbacks is not a luxury, it's a "normalization" as he's the only one suffering from questionable designs. He doesn't need the setbacks.

 

[Doombawkz]

I don't know how Mustard's scene is. The tourny archive he posted a while back was great. I liked what was shown early on when people were still learning the game. But we're looking to draw data from contemporary results and achievements. Fighting games evolve and change a lot. You can't really keep that one achievement he had weeks ago to apply with current situations. Even if he got that far with Bane early on, I'm sure those Batman and Superman players weren't even near the level of REO/DarthArma/KDZ.

I've never really felt like he needs big overhaul buffs, but I've always been pretty adamant about his venom cuts being a set back in his design. He's not as threatening as a lot of people are making him to be overall and he's considered a non-threat in tournaments. Removing his debuff setbacks is not a luxury, it's a "normalization" as he's the only one suffering from questionable designs. He doesn't need the setbacks.

Yeah, you are absolutely right. Because as you know, pre-patch 1 Bane was OBVIOUSLY as good as he is now. What with the 9 seconds and huge debuff on venom, the inability to dash inbetween projectiles, the ability to parry charge. You didn't have to be as good as those 3 to beat pre-patch 1 Bane. That was when he was a flawed character.

His venom cuts are how the system works, and its a pretty fluid system. People are admitting now he is a mid-tier and viable, a lot of people even say he is a threat in the making. The only one suffering from questionable design? Deathstroke Trait, Flash's mid problem, flash, Bane, and sinestro losing trait in clash, cyborg trait, and Harley trait all say hello. Theres a lot more flaws for other people. He needs the setbacks to keep himself from getting the nerf bat, and imo it makes him balanced. He doesn't need to be overwhelmingly powerful because he already is, and people are starting to see it. Also including one of the farthest-reaching b.3s in the game that covers most backdashes and you have a solid contender.

 

[SUPARNOVAX]

Yeah, you are absolutely right. Because as you know, pre-patch 1 Bane was OBVIOUSLY as good as he is now. What with the 9 seconds and huge debuff on venom, the inability to dash inbetween projectiles, the ability to parry charge. You didn't have to be as good as those 3 to beat pre-patch 1 Bane. That was when he was a flawed character.

His venom cuts are how the system works, and its a pretty fluid system. People are admitting now he is a mid-tier and viable, a lot of people even say he is a threat in the making. The only one suffering from questionable design? Deathstroke Trait, Flash's mid problem, flash, Bane, and sinestro losing trait in clash, cyborg trait, and Harley trait all say hello. Theres a lot more flaws for other people. He needs the setbacks to keep himself from getting the nerf bat, and imo it makes him balanced. He doesn't need to be overwhelmingly powerful because he already is, and people are starting to see it. Also including one of the farthest-reaching b.3s in the game that covers most backdashes and you have a solid contender.

He barely got touched. He's still the same flawed character. lol

Well I guess since you pointed out all those traits, I guess NRS really has no clue how to balance or design games which leads right back to Bane's flaws being even more apparent than before.

 

[Doombawkz]

He barely got touched. He's still the same flawed character. lol

Well I guess since you pointed out all those traits, I guess NRS really has no clue how to balance or design games which leads right back to Bane's flaws being even more apparent than before.

Yeah, you know, him getting doomsday esque dash, a damage taken reduction on all levels, and a cooldown reduction on venom means he was barely touched.

As in they basically made him mid tier through those buffs alone.

 

[LEGI0N47]

I think for maximzing your damage on venom depends on what kind of game you have to play, or get to play. I would think that you would want maximum time on venom preferably. But I often wonder if I should wait and use it for punishes for large damage. If my preasure is not being broken or interupted I continue to pump, usually going for max damage with grab set ups. But mix ups with DP for corner carry is highly viable as well not to mention MB DP gives you an age to chuck stuff. In most cases if you let Bane preasure you repeatedly, find a good chiropractor.

Here are the questions I ask myself on management.
-should I hit confirm my venom (b23,4,....d1,4,bf2 etc.) so that I'm not caught wasting precious time while "getting in?" Many know you're coming in pre-pumping but mind games are fun as well as usuful.
-Is it worth it to go straight to lvl 3 to defeat multi hit zoning or try to get around it "Naturally?" (prob natural, but sometimes you just want em to know you can run them over, urge is strong)
-Should I pump up massively (2 or 3) everytime I'm 100% going to nail them with an interactable for big damage, or pump after I move in on that knockdown to maximize venom preasure?
-If I get caught in a combo while lvl 2 is running out is it worth it to go to lvl 3 so that I don't take extra damage? And also have a high damaging wakeup *potentially.
-should I go for continued venom preasure (mix ups with DP) or max damage of MB grab. Which profits better in the end? Especially on 2&3.

 

[masuhdunkillyall]

Personally I'd rather them not cut the venom debuffs on any level, at all. Maybe some tweaking here or there, but if we're talking buffs I don't think that is the issue. Take away any part of the venom debuff and Bane will be too powerful.

IMO he is on his way up...instead of changing venom debuff, I'd rather have any one of these:

1. f.2 gains armor in level 2 venom, as does f.2.d.... f.2 needs to be -10, -11, or something along those lines on block. Also, for a powerful looking animation, it does like no pushback on block. Make it do some pushback.
2. Meterburn option that if done raw (i.e. not after say, b.23, 1,123) allows a link into one more string that can be ended with a special. My vote is double punch; not only will this help with damage off mixups, it will extend the time you can waste when on debuff. Make it ground bounce high enough to allow a b.3 or f.3 if possible.
3. Charge cancel option. The parry buff helps alot in certain matchups, but even then, we all know we shouldn't ever be charging unless its desperation level 3 venom, an ender for a mixup option, or a block string ender. To me, this just adds another element opponents need to look for, and gives the move itself some safety and raw usage.

 

[GGA Max]

Why does the conversation always turn into a bane buff thread. Smh.

 

[D_Matt_Ma]

Well, I'm looking at the damage difference between using BF1 and DBF3 to finish a combo. The extra damage is roughly 1%. The time saved is roughly half a second. In my mind, when you're in Venom level 3, you do the tackle. That half second matters more. If you're in level 1, the body press is worth, especially if you plan on continuing offense into level 2. When you're in level 2, I kind of have it in the air. Tackle is better if you're running low and want to stop before level 3. Body is press is by far better if you're going to level 3.

Then again, I'm still in the same camp I've been since day 1, which is level 2 venom isn't strong enough. I wish F3(D) were Venomed on level 2 instead of 3 and Super be full Invincible on Level 3. But hey, we're getting off topic.

I've chimed in already on me being fine with the debuff. I truly want them to be making the DB1 actually be the combo ender it was designed for. DB1 doing 20% or doing unscaled 16% damage would instantly make me fine with Bane as is. The argument over debuff/buff shouldn't be done until we feel that the buff/debuffs are addressing a proper movelist, which I don't think Bane has yet.

@NRS: DB1. Make it Happen.