My Suggested Stage Select Rules For Injustice

[DJ L Toro]

GGA Dizzy Tom Brady and shogunoflive have all suggested some rules for stage select in tournament, but i think they all fall short of the ideal.
I think the problem with having random every match (Dizzy's idea) is that you can see which level because of the background. It's because levels are so important that knowing which level you will be playing in before you start is a HUGE advantage.
That being said, Brady's rules have the same problem for the first match and the 50/50 problem for the rest.
Shogun's rules also seem to benefit the loser a bit more, but still carry the problem of the 50/50.

So here's my solution:
What if instead of just using what is in the background, player 1 selects that and player 2 had to press 3 (X or A, depending on the system) twice causing a random 50/50 (because p2 level select's starting spot is random) thus on a loss you dont just counterpick the right character for the "random" level in the background and the 50/50 picks between 2 random levels selected by the game, not the players. This would solve the unbalanced level problem (because the odds of reselecting that level are still going to be less than 2%), solves the problem of seening the "random" level in the background, and is probably the most fair system that has been suggested thus far.

OR

Every match could just be the level that player 2 randomly starts on (this one has been suggested to me, and it doesnt seem like a bad idea, so i'd also like to open up discussion of this idea).

What do you think? could this be used at least in part of the process? Maybe for the first match but let loser pick? or maybe only after the first match? Either way we need to decide on something more fair than 50/50 every time, loser picks, or always what's in the background. those all have problems and limit the legitimacy of the match in my opinion (because if you always play on a favorable map did you really outplay your opponent?).

 

[cpmd4]

Does P2's random choice include all levels and sub-levels? If it does, I see no reason not to use this for at least the first match.

 

[Eddy Wang]

from what i ever saw, my nephew was crying because who ever wins, no matter if you try on the 50/50, the one who wins is the stage that will be selected, was this a glitch? has it been fixed?

 

[DJ L Toro]

Does P2's random choice include all levels and sub-levels? If it does, I see no reason not to use this for at least the first match.

I dont know, i'll check today and edit this post.

from what i ever saw, my nephew was crying because who ever wins, no matter if you try on the 50/50, the one who wins is the stage that will be selected, was this a glitch? has it been fixed?

What do you mean? like if you win the match and you're p2 then p2's 50/50 pick will win? no, i lost a match at UFGT and went to 50/50 and won it on my 4th one (out of 5 matches i played i lost 4 50/50s, and i lost 4 matches. Coincidence? i think not. Even so it is actually random(ish))

 

[xWEBSx]

How about everyone play like a big boy? Seems like a bunch of girls mixing and matching purses.. Each interactable had a 50/50 shot of ending up in EITHER characters face.. It is not like 1 person picks the stage and that is that.. Both players get a choice.. Roulette wheel spins.. BOOM- there is your stage. Sounds to me like people need to stop worrying less about how to eliminate stage X,Y,Z from competitive play and start thinking about a game plan when said stage is picked.
-Lets play Injustice but ban Blah, blah, blah!
-Lets play baseball but ban special pitches!
-Lets play football but ban deep passes!

Let it ride ladies.. Let it ride.

 

[DJ L Toro]

How about everyone play like a big boy? Seems like a bunch of girls mixing and matching purses.. Each interactable had a 50/50 shot of ending up in EITHER characters face.. It is not like 1 person picks the stage and that is that.. Both players get a choice.. Roulette wheel spins.. BOOM- there is your stage. Sounds to me like people need to stop worrying less about how to eliminate stage X,Y,Z from competitive play and start thinking about a game plan when said stage is picked.
-Lets play Injustice but ban Blah, blah, blah!
-Lets play baseball but ban special pitches!
-Lets play football but ban deep passes!

Let it ride ladies.. Let it ride.

It's not about eliminating stages, but about making the game fair (and thus actually a question of skill instead of a question of winning a 50/50)
different interactables privilege different kinds of characters more. It therefore becomes a part of the matchup to get around or get rid of the interactables that will cause you to take 20% damage per hit and are reusable. It's not just rooftop, though that is probably the most apparent, but things like the guns on stryker's island, fire on themyscira, car in metropolis, roomba, etc. privilege certain types of characters, so if you're a gadget character on M.rooftop, then the drone really isnt that useful (a couple bullets that do i think 8% as opposed to a large splash area that does 20% and quickly respawns over a power character is a big difference).
Either way some rules have to be established and what we've been doing hasnt been working.

 

[xWEBSx]

It's not about eliminating stages, but about making the game fair (and thus actually a question of skill instead of a question of winning a 50/50)
different interactables privilege different kinds of characters more. It therefore becomes a part of the matchup to get around or get rid of the interactables that will cause you to take 20% damage per hit and are reusable. It's not just rooftop, though that is probably the most apparent, but things like the guns on stryker's island, fire on themyscira, car in metropolis, roomba, etc. privilege certain types of characters, so if you're a gadget character on M.rooftop, then the drone really isnt that useful (a couple bullets that do i think 8% as opposed to a large splash area that does 20% and quickly respawns over a power character is a big difference).
Either way some rules have to be established and what we've been doing hasnt been working.

Lets take the last statement first.. Let it ride means play it as it is... You lucky enough to play Supes and land the rooftop stage... You have the chance to throw those robots as you please... LUCKY YOU!!! But isnt that why tourney's are played in sets and not singke elimination? to redeem yourself, adjust and counter? Being free to interactables is not a gameplay issue, it is a player not adapting well to it issue. And now with the addition of characters like Batgirl and Scorpion- they can handily punish interactables on sight..There is a reason why your rules are not working- the game is meant to be played WITH interactables on.. And gadget characters become more dangerous on cars like Wayne manor or left car on metropolis.. Much like robots favor power characters on rooftop.

You see..it's all part of the master plan.. And beating great Superman is a feat enough, now beating him on a power stage is even that much better of a victory... Your a tournament player.. You want victories handed to you on a silver platter? Or you wanna earn it?

The 50/50 is one of the best elements that have to be planned out for... And there is no substitute.. If tournaments strip it down to ATLANTIS ONLY, that shit is going to get awfully stale, awfully fast.. And then when tournament players start verbally lashing out at NRS for not making more "tournament viable levels", they need to look in the mirror, because banning anything in a fighting game is just bad business... And it is no ones fault but those who banned shit to begin with.

You say it is not about eliminating stages, but to make the game fair... But how? Ultimately eliminating stages. No one likes fighting on Ferris Air Craft.. And for those that openly select it, it is a benefit for them (or they are gluttons for punishment).. Time to figure WHY and adapt... Or heaven forbid.. Punish them at their own game.. I just can't for the life of me understand how a person wants to play the greatest players, using the greatest characters.. But are afraid of eating a TV for 20% damage....

 

[DuskAlloy]

Lets take the last statement first.. Let it ride means play it as it is... You lucky enough to play Supes and land the rooftop stage... You have the chance to throw those robots as you please... LUCKY YOU!!! But isnt that why tourney's are played in sets and not singke elimination? to redeem yourself, adjust and counter? Being free to interactables is not a gameplay issue, it is a player not adapting well to it issue. And now with the addition of characters like Batgirl and Scorpion- they can handily punish interactables on sight..There is a reason why your rules are not working- the game is meant to be played WITH interactables on.. And gadget characters become more dangerous on cars like Wayne manor or left car on metropolis.. Much like robots favor power characters on rooftop.

You see..it's all part of the master plan.. And beating great Superman is a feat enough, now beating him on a power stage is even that much better of a victory... Your a tournament player.. You want victories handed to you on a silver platter? Or you wanna earn it?

The 50/50 is one of the best elements that have to be planned out for... And there is no substitute.. If tournaments strip it down to ATLANTIS ONLY, that shit is going to get awfully stale, awfully fast.. And then when tournament players start verbally lashing out at NRS for not making more "tournament viable levels", they need to look in the mirror, because banning anything in a fighting game is just bad business... And it is no ones fault but those who banned shit to begin with.

You say it is not about eliminating stages, but to make the game fair... But how? Ultimately eliminating stages. No one likes fighting on Ferris Air Craft.. And for those that openly select it, it is a benefit for them (or they are gluttons for punishment).. Time to figure WHY and adapt... Or heaven forbid.. Punish them at their own game.. I just can't for the life of me understand how a person wants to play the greatest players, using the greatest characters.. But are afraid of eating a TV for 20% damage....

So basically stage decides wins... yahoo

 

[xWEBSx]

So basically stage decides wins... yahoo

Outstanding and very defeatist attitude to have.. So you have never beat a power character on a power stage? You have never beat a gadget user on a gadget stage? Please... Up your game and attitude.. Yeeeehaaaaa

 

[DuskAlloy]

Outstanding and very defeatist attitude to have.. So you have never beat a power character on a power stage? You have never beat a gadget user on a gadget stage? Please... Up your game and attitude.. Yeeeehaaaaa

Im fucking with you, but I dont like the idea of 50/50 stage select that gives certain players advantage at the start just because they got lucky, random stage could make this much more fair

 

[xWEBSx]

Im fucking with you, but I dont like the idea of 50/50 stage select that gives certain players advantage at the start just because they got lucky, random stage could make this much more fair

50/50 comes down to luck of the draw.. 1 player picks stage A, 1 player picks stage B

Random stage could put you at certain characters mercy more often- clearly there are more stages where power characters benefit, and to leave it up to TOTAL chance.. How is that beneficial?

 

[DuskAlloy]

50/50 comes down to luck of the draw.. 1 player picks stage A, 1 player picks stage B

Random stage could put you at certain characters mercy more often- clearly there are more stages where power characters benefit, and to leave it up to TOTAL chance.. How is that beneficial?

Wouldnt it being random be more fair for both the players, instead of both players picking the best stage for their character and possibly getting a huge advantage just because of 50/50 luck?

 

[chores]

Does P2's random choice include all levels and sub-levels? If it does, I see no reason not to use this for at least the first match.

ill quote this from an older post on the p2 select:

(.5)^n where n=number of times the same players get their level choice in a row. so the probability of one player getting their level choice 3 times in a row in a best of 3 is .125 or 1 in 8 odds on average. That would likely happen several times in a large tournament. If you had a 128 person SINGLE elimination tournament it would happen ~16 times out of 127 games so that very well could have a significant impact on the results. That is only assuming that every game goes 3 rounds. If we can assume that getting your level choice twice in a row is enough of a difference maker to end matches sooner then the probability increases.​

(just for reference, i know this is obvious info) -- To expand on this, if you used the player 2 level select which is random AFAICT then each individual stage would have a 3.3% chance of being selected, except for Atlantis and Ferris which each (this is more of a gut feeling from playing a ton of matches using p2 select /not scientific) have a 6.6% chance of being selected. Also if you consider the two Arkhams to be essentially the same level then each of those two stages also have a 6.6% chance of selection.

I am not 100% certain on the 6.6% for atlantis / ferris. It'd be nice to have a developer [ @colt ] confirm that A) p2 level select starts on a truly random level and B) whether or not atlantis / ferris have a 6.6% chance or 3.3%. If someone wanted to test this I would do at least 500 random player 2 selects. The difference should be apparent.

important to note is the idea that joker/arkham are the same stage also applies to wayne manor day/night

 

[Eddy Wang]

What do you mean? like if you win the match and you're p2 then p2's 50/50 pick will win? no, i lost a match at UFGT and went to 50/50 and won it on my 4th one (out of 5 matches i played i lost 4 50/50s, and i lost 4 matches. Coincidence? i think not. Even so it is actually random(ish))

I hope is really random because we're getting tired of this, its annoying when you lose, you try to counter pick a stage with a 50/50 and only the winning side is the one being picked.

 

[Zoidberg747]

Already suggested this in Dizzy's thread

I agree completely, it seems like the best option at this point

 

[DJ L Toro]

I hope is really random because we're getting tired of this, its annoying when you lose, you try to counter pick a stage with a 50/50 and only the winning side is the one being picked.

That's why 50/50 is a terrible idea though. I like the idea of re-random 50/50 with 2 random stages. This means that you probably wont go back to the same stage (but still might, lower chance because it's literally 100% divided by all of the stages in the game times 2 (because of the p2 random 50/50)).

ill quote this from an older post on the p2 select:

important to note is the idea that joker/arkham are the same stage also applies to wayne manor day/night

the math in that also needs to take into account metropolis having 3 stages (cant remember if there are others with 3 but i dont think so). Thanks for this post though.

50/50 comes down to luck of the draw.. 1 player picks stage A, 1 player picks stage B

Random stage could put you at certain characters mercy more often- clearly there are more stages where power characters benefit, and to leave it up to TOTAL chance.. How is that beneficial?

This is exactly why fighting games should not use 50/50. GGA Dizzy already covered that in his thread, there's a 50% chance you'll get screwed each time, so it enables worse players to win matches they shouldnt against better players. Things like this arent things you just say "it's fine you just need to adapt" to.

Already suggested this in Dizzy's thread

I agree completely, it seems like the best option at this point

To what extent do you think it should be used? Do you think all rounds should use this system?

 

[Juggs]

Stage select, as I've said over and over, should be really simple. First stage random, loser can either pick or re-random. By that I mean I'm fine with loser picks or loser can re-random. 50/50 should not be used, but if it has to be used, it should only be used for the first game. OR, if both stage selects are random, and you 50/50 between the random stages. That would be unnecessary but it is an option.

 

[DJ L Toro]

Stage select, as I've said over and over, should be really simple. First stage random, loser can either pick or re-random. By that I mean I'm fine with loser picks or loser can re-random. 50/50 should not be used, but if it has to be used, it should only be used for the first game. OR, if both stage selects are random, and you 50/50 between the random stages. That would be unnecessary but it is an option.

the problem with "first stage random" if you're assuming random means the stage in the background, is that you can counterpick the first match to that stage. that's why i think this is an important question

 

[Juggs]

the problem with "first stage random" if you're assuming random means the stage in the background, is that you can counterpick the first match to that stage. that's why i think this is an important question

Both players can see the stage, neither one has an advantage. So what if you can pick a character based on the stage, both players can do that, so what's the problem?

 

[chores]

the problem with "first stage random" if you're assuming random means the stage in the background, is that you can counterpick the first match to that stage. that's why i think this is an important question

first stage must be the default from p2 select. p1 has to also select whatever p2 lands on

 

[xWEBSx]

Wouldnt it being random be more fair for both the players, instead of both players picking the best stage for their character and possibly getting a huge advantage just because of 50/50 luck?

There is a total of 29 stages..lets break them down: level: who it favors- since acrobats get screwed, we will count them out and pit Power Vs Gadget type..

-Arkham/Joker Asylum: Power
-Arkham/Joker Mess Hall: Power
-Atlantis: Draw
-Batcave Crime lab: Draw
-Batcave Lagoon: Draw
-Ferris Aircraft Hanger: Draw
-Fortress of Sol Lab: Draw
-Fortress of Sol Menagerie: Draw
-Gotham City Roof: Power
-Gotham City Alley: Gadget
-Hall of Justice Plaza: Power
-Hall of Justice Great Hall: Draw
-insurgency Command Cent: Draw
-Insurgency Lab: Draw
-Metropolis Street: Gadget
-Metropolis Roof: Power
-Metropolis Museum: Draw
-Stryker Island Cell: Power
-Stryker Yard: Draw
-Themyscria Temple: Power
-Themyscria Port: Draw
-WatchTower Bridge: Draw
-WatchTower Reactor: Draw
-Wayne Manor Day/Night Entrance: Draw
-Wayne Manor Day/Night Greatroom: Power

-Power favor: 11/29
-Gadget favor: 2/29
-Draw: 16/29

So.. If a random stage is "selected" power character has a better chance of having the edge..

The only real edge Gadget characters have are re-explodeable cars and dumpster (all of which can be destroyed by power characters- rendering their stage neutral or in power favor)

So you can take the random chance you like- I will stick with my 50/50 chance.

 

[DuskAlloy]

There is a total of 29 stages..lets break them down: level: who it favors- since acrobats get screwed, we will count them out and pit Power Vs Gadget type..

-Arkham/Joker Asylum: Power
-Arkham/Joker Mess Hall: Power
-Atlantis: Draw
-Batcave Crime lab: Draw
-Batcave Lagoon: Draw
-Ferris Aircraft Hanger: Draw
-Fortress of Sol Lab: Draw
-Fortress of Sol Menagerie: Draw
-Gotham City Roof: Power
-Gotham City Alley: Gadget
-Hall of Justice Plaza: Power
-Hall of Justice Great Hall: Draw
-insurgency Command Cent: Draw
-Insurgency Lab: Draw
-Metropolis Street: Gadget
-Metropolis Roof: Power
-Metropolis Museum: Draw
-Stryker Island Cell: Power
-Stryker Yard: Draw
-Themyscria Temple: Power
-Themyscria Port: Draw
-WatchTower Bridge: Draw
-WatchTower Reactor: Draw
-Wayne Manor Day/Night Entrance: Draw
-Wayne Manor Day/Night Greatroom: Power

-Power favor: 11/29
-Gadget favor: 2/29
-Draw: 16/29

So.. If a random stage is "selected" power character has a better chance of having the edge..

The only real edge Gadget characters have are re-explodeable cars and dumpster (all of which can be destroyed by power characters- rendering their stage neutral or in power favor)

So you can take the random chance you like- I will stick with my 50/50 chance.

So in other words both choices suck... why are interactables considered good for the game again?

 

[xWEBSx]

So in other words both choices suck... why are interactables considered good for the game again?

Because they add an extra element of preparation and thought behind.. Because either character HAS the chance of eating one.. Adding options is not always a bad thing.. If it were the case we would all still be playing SF2 with just 2 characters on screen and that's it.. It's 2013- it IS time to adapt. It is time to accept change..

And DJ L Toro
You must live in a fantasy land where the best always wins.. There is a term called upset and it happens in a lot across all facets of competition... If an upset occurs due to eating a tv/dumpster/car-- the favored player deserves the "L" and should have taken that into account.. Besides.. Shouldn't the better play TAKE THAT INTO ACCOUNT by default, so therefore NOT get cheaped out by an interactable?
Sounds to me like people are trying to protect their ego than anything else

 

[DJ L Toro]

There is a total of 29 stages..lets break them down: level: who it favors- since acrobats get screwed, we will count them out and pit Power Vs Gadget type..

-Arkham/Joker Asylum: Select power (who hit with table), otherwise draw (5.5-4.5)
-Arkham/Joker Mess Hall: Draw
-Atlantis: Gadget (reusable faucets, but probably even or power with characters that cant place tnt) (6-4)
-Batcave Crime lab: Draw
-Batcave Lagoon: Draw
-Ferris Aircraft Hanger: Draw
-Fortress of Sol Lab: Draw
-Fortress of Sol Menagerie: probably power (5.5-4.5)
-Gotham City Roof: Power(6-4)
-Gotham City Alley: Gadget(5.5-4.5)
-Hall of Justice Plaza: Gadget (6-4)
-Hall of Justice Great Hall: Power (5.5-4.5)
-insurgency Command Cent: Draw
-Insurgency Lab: Draw
-Metropolis Street: power (5.5-4.5)
-Metropolis Roof: EXTREME Power (8-2)
-Metropolis Museum: Draw
-Stryker Island Cell: Draw
-Stryker Yard: Draw
-Themyscria Temple: gadget (7-3)
-Themyscria Port: Draw
-WatchTower Bridge: Draw
-WatchTower Reactor: Draw
-Wayne Manor Day/Night Entrance: Draw
-Wayne Manor Day/Night Greatroom: Slightly Power (5.5-4.5)

-Power favor: 9-/29
-Gadget favor: 4/29
-Draw: 16+/29

So.. If a random stage is "selected" power character has a better chance of having the edge..

The only real edge Gadget characters have are re-explodeable cars and dumpster (all of which can be destroyed by power characters- rendering their stage neutral or in power favor)

So you can take the random chance you like- I will stick with my 50/50 chance.

Corrected and added level matchup numbers. sure, power characters have a slight edge naturally, but with random odds are you will get a level that at worst you slightly lose. 50/50 means that you have a 50% chance of playing on a level that annihilates your character and a 50% chance of playing on a neutral one (because apparently you think that the one level with three reusable large hitbox tracking interactables (that do 18%) that privilege gadget characters is won by power characters...). This isnt for the sake of saving gadget characters, but for playing on a relatively even playing field generally.

first stage must be the default from p2 select. p1 has to also select whatever p2 lands on

I also considered this, but that eliminates the map in the background from random. maybe that would be better though *shrug*

 

[DJ L Toro]

Because they add an extra element of preparation and thought behind.. Because either character HAS the chance of eating one.. Adding options is not always a bad thing.. If it were the case we would all still be playing SF2 with just 2 characters on screen and that's it.. It's 2013- it IS time to adapt. It is time to accept change..

And DJ L Toro
You must live in a fantasy land where the best always wins.. There is a term called upset and it happens in a lot across all facets of competition... If an upset occurs due to eating a tv/dumpster/car-- the favored player deserves the "L" and should have taken that into account.. Besides.. Shouldn't the better play TAKE THAT INTO ACCOUNT by default, so therefore NOT get cheaped out by an interactable?
Sounds to me like people are trying to protect their ego than anything else

The better player should win, yes. If a game has a mechanic that allows for worse players to beat better players then it is a bad game. Dizzy admitted that his win over 16bit at UFGT had absolutely nothing to do with skill or adaptation or anything, it was entirely based on him winning every 50/50 and playing the level. Noone wants wins like that. I mean you might because you lack logic, but most people who play fighting games can recognize how stupid that is.
If the game randomly picks that in a 1/58 pick twice in a best of 3 set, well shit, but that's a less than 1% possibility as opposed to 50% like you want. sorry if i want a more skillful game.