Awesome Argument on WNF

[PoliceBrutality]

So let me get this straight, the patch is DONE and READY annnnd SUBMITTED. We are waiting on approval from MS and Sony? then why being so mad at NRS? they have done their part, no? unless im missing something. I think NRS is doing a great job in my opinion. It must be heartbreaking to the NRS dev to see some of our reactions after putting a lot of effort in trying to balance the game and still trying to make it tournament worthy. Im very happy with the support that I am getting from them so far. It really means a lot to me. I think some of us are being unreasonable. What else do you expect from them 1. you got your patch 2. the patch is submitted 3. NRS tells you what bugs have been addressed in it. I guess a forth one for some of you will be for NRS to go knock on sony and MS doors to push the patch sooner. If you ask me, I think NRS is delivering on it's promises slow and steady

We quit and whine too quickly.

 

[Zebster]

Well if that's how you feel, then im also going to use stryker's infinite

He has an infinite? Or am I being trolled?

 

[Tremloc]

My take, we are all working for NRS with no pay:

Game was 100% ready for the casual masses (which makes most of the MK audience) and ready ENOUGH for the tourney community so they can pick it apart. Game was released in time for EVO. There was enough time for the scene to voice concerns while NRS looked through the one sided mirror and take notes. Everything the scene found that NRS agreed with will be addressed in the patch. The plan is to release the patch before EVO so it is as viable a fighter as it can possibly be to that point.* I could be very wrong, but from a business standpoint, it's not unreasonable to see this as a likelihood.

*Except for Quan Chi. Netherrealm has a hard on to destroy him.

Time for me to throw my hat into the arena.

Every single game that is actively supported by developers makes you a beta tester with no pay. This is, however, an odd way of looking at it. When is a game really out of beta? Or is "alpha, beta, release candidate, release master, gold master" just arbitrary designations to keep track of a product during development? Every game has bugs, does that make the game a beta? A game typically moves from beta to release candidate when:
1) the publisher says your time and money are up and they've coordinated marketing.
2) the game is solid enough that crashes and other undesirable situations happen at a minimum

1 happens to everyone. 2 is what you hope to achieve when 1 happens.

Everybody is quick to jump down the developers throat when something goes wrong, or isn't to their liking, or isn't released "complete". The sky is falling posts run amok and everyone thinks their opinion is the right one and their opinion accurately reflects the entire spectrum of players or the health of the game. Check the blizzard forums for many examples of this.

It's also very easy to be a keyboard cowboy and put a company on blast for not immediately fixing bugs. The reality is these people have lives. Lives that very likely have been put on hold for many months to bring a title to you on time and with the smallest amount of bugs possible. When a game is released it's time for those people to start those lives again. That doesn't matter to most people. If a bug is found on day x, people think it should be fixed in day x + 1 because "it's just a simple fix" right?

Patching a game is a confusing concept from a business standpoint. Why would CEO Johnny Publisher care if a game is patched? It doesn't make him any money, and this business, just like any other business, is about making money. In fact, patches make him *lose* money, because he has to pay salaries of people who are working on something that's going to be released for free. What does make him money is DLC. When NRS goes to WB and says "we need money to patch the game" CEO Johnny says "lolz no, that doesn't make me scrooge mcduck piles of money!". So NRS says "we need money to make DLC and a little extra to fix some minor problems" and CEO Johnny says "eff yeah, DLC = CA$HMONAY". NRS now has the funds to both patch the game and release DLC. This is a simplistic but very real view to the politics that go on.

Most day zero patches happen because there's about a month delay (sometimes more) between releasing the master, being approved by MS/Sony, and being considered gold. During that month delay it's not uncommon to try and fix those bugs that were released with the RM. Another RC is made and sent to MS/Sony with the expectation that it will either be a patch or new RM if the previous RM fails. Most companies stop after the day zero patch because there's no money in it (or perhaps they've negotiated in their funding one patch after day zero).

There is some merit to the counter-argument that if games aren't patched or released buggy the reputation of the company will suffer and people will be less likely to purchase their games in the future, but that's only in extreme circumstances where the game is literally unplayable. MK9 is an extremely solid game in that respect.

I'm enjoying all the discussions going on about depth vs complexity because often the two are considered synonymous when in reality they are very different. The chess analogy posted earlier is an excellent thought. Easy to learn, lifetime to master and all that.

I'll stop here since I've rambled on for a bit, but that's because I've been a gamer all my life and a game developer since 2003, so these kinds of topics interest me.

So Keep Calm and Carry On. It's much too early to decide whether NRS will fail to accomplish what they set out to do from a tournament standpoint, although from a sales standpoint they are likely going to accomplish their goals (900k+ in april, not including special additions, may data released after E3).

 

[Slymind]

All i want to add to this conversation is that i think NRS have been doing a great job so far, they are going to tournaments, trying to fix stuff, talking to the players etc. The game has great potential IMO, and we should support it. Look at SFIV, they only get changes at every new version of the game, and now in the 3rd version of the game, guess what? they made it more inbalanced than before and people are paying for it, i mean, seriously?(p.s. i love SF as much as MK). I agree with Skisonic and understand Brad's concern as well, now Aris, was extremely arrogant i definitely do no agree with him, and that's not the first time he've been bashing this game. My opinion.

 

[Sequel]

This isn't directed at anyone specific but playing this game ONLINE for years to come doesn't hold any weight in this conversation. Ski, Bill, and Aris were talking about the game competitively OFFLINE. I believe the game is far to generic to survive the competitive tournament scene for years to come.

 

[Evil_Riu48]

Everyone should just play UMK3, it's a great game, great experience.

lol even when this game would be know as the best mk ever

 

[VIDA]

There is some merit to the counter-argument that if games aren't patched or released buggy the reputation of the company will suffer and people will be less likely to purchase their games in the future, but that's only in extreme circumstances where the game is literally unplayable. MK9 is an extremely solid game in that respect.

I agree with this post but I also think that in order to get DLC/new editions flying off the shelf (or downloaded rather in this day and age), and to increase tourney exposure (which WB HAS to be making money off of somehow) the dev has to keep customers happy and loyal, which is a process that patching plays a major role in. So patching does in fact make business sense, it just mite not always be viewed as the most directly profitable thing at the time to a financial backer, tho according to NRS WB has been a very good, liberal backer.

 

[AC1984]

One thing I will say is that high level MK9 is waaaaaaay more exciting to watch than UMK3. Again, this is just my opinion.

As far as getting the game patched, I'm happy NRS seems to be listening to the players and moving forward with balancing issues. They're not just nerfing characters, they're buffing others as well. That's something I don't recall much of a history of with ANY fighter.

I'm very happy with the new MK thus far. To those saying it's too generic, I'd have to argue that that's the way MK has always been for the most part. This game seems to have the most separation from one character to another. Hell, there's even differences between Cyrax and Human Cyrax.

With DLC characters and gameplay patches, I think the game will have more life than people think. I just hope NRS doesn't give up on it soon just to make MK10.

MK9 is not generic at all...no one said that....UMK3 and UMK3 on high level is fun to watch...lets see if MK9 stays around for 15 years like UMK3 did...

 

[Xstatic]

I don’t agree with the criticism of Mk’s universal normals. These “universal” normals have different speeds and ranges that make them very different. For example, Quan Chi has an excellent uppercut that he can use for an anti-air or for fast punishes, while Sub-Zero’s is very slow and has limited use. Just because characters share a sweep, uppercut, etc. Doesn’t mean they have the same properties. How many characters in SF have a trip? Just because the normals are mapped to the same button in MK doesn’t make them the same move. The same could be said for the amount of projectiles and teleports. There’s no way you can compare Scorpion’s teleport to Smoke’s, or Raiden’s fireball to Kano’s.

I’m happy that Tom Brady confirmed that the patch is awaiting approval. I just hope that the patch arrives for Evo. I have faith that NRS is going to do what it can, but it is naive to believe this was going to be a smooth process for a developer that hasn’t had to deal with making a tournament worthy game before. I’m happy with how the game is turning out, and that NRS acknowledges the problems instead of just ignoring everything. I have patience with the process.

BTW, people are saying this game is bland, but look at SF4. Actually, in every rendition of SF4 Capcom has been removing tons of unique traits for characters. Look what they did to Cammy, Seth, Rose and Vega, for example. They removed so many unique traits to characters that has made over half the cast extremely bland and boring. I don’t think characters are bland at all in this game compared to others.

 

[Tremloc]

it just mite not always be viewed as the most directly profitable thing at the time to a financial backer

Yes. It makes sense to us to support a game, have it be a big dog at evo, etc, but to bean counters they really don't understand those kinds of things. It's difficult to quantify the monetary aspect that patches, tourneys, community, etc. bring.

 

[Xstatic]

Yes. It makes sense to us to support a game, have it be a big dog at evo, etc, but to bean counters they really don't understand those kinds of things. It's difficult to quantify the monetary aspect that patches, tourneys, community, etc. bring.

I think they would look at Capcom to see where long-term commitment can bring them financially. Casual players are going to move on when the next big game hits, so they won't buy DLC (like outfits) or an updated version of the game.

 

[JVMaverick]

Jesus this thread is depressing lol.

Well of course if you pay attention only to the criticism you will get bummed, but as I said earlier, JennyCage was pretty spot on, you can't keep comparing game deepness if the game isn't intended to provide such thing on the same way other games do.

I've listened to the whole discussion between Aeris, TB and Ski, and I must say that it was way more entertaining than the actual matches or any WNF stream lately, the way each presented their points of view and how the debate went on, about how the developer should listen to the community, how the patch was already ready and waiting for clearance from PSN and LIVE, and all the other details they spoke of. And It was pretty interesting how they said that NRS is supposedly going beyond their duty with the feedback they are giving to the community since it doesn't actually add much profit to them in other to Cather the competitive scene. A final note on this: I could listen to them talking about this for hours, it's amazing how the debate developed, someone should give these guys some space to talk about fighting games in the same way they did there (idk if there is such thing already).

Some in this thread keep pushing the same "downsides" I've been hearing about since even before the game was released, because they are basing their judgment on other franchises that have way more time in the competitive scene, thus giving it a lot, and I mean a lot of more time to work itself out.

They have to understand that MK9 is crawling it's way up to become a respected fighter on it's own right.

English ain't my first language so pardon any mistakes!

 

[Robotic]

@tremloc

You being in the Biz puts things in a fresh perspective, and one that many of us wouldn't get the chance to hear. My take on the situation was "hear me out, what if this is what happened?" scenario. In no way is it meant to be taken as a swipe at NRS. The phrase we all work for NRS with no pay is based soley on the possibility that the scenario occurred. If that scenario occurred, then this game might have been released on time table alone with full knowledge they still needed to work out the kinks, full knowledge that the SCENE would find new kinks to work out, and full knowledge they had the capability to fix said kinks in time for EVO.

So my question to you Tremloc, is twofold:

1. Is the above scenario likely, unlikely, crapshoot?

2. Cmon, poor Quan Chi, Right??!!

 

[D_Matt_Ma]

I just found the dialogue more entertaining than informative.

It doesn't matter what you say. When there's that much emotion in the dialogue, your mind focuses on the more important things in life, like who's going to lose it first.

 

[Sequel]

Take notes NRS:

http://www.thedailydl.com/the-rundown-on-street-fighter-iii-3rd-strike-part-1/

http://www.thedailydl.com/the-rundown-on-street-fighter-iii-3rd-strike-part-2/

No excuses in 2011.

 

[Tremloc]

@tremloc

You being in the Biz puts things in a fresh perspective, and one that many of us wouldn't get the chance to hear. My take on the situation was "hear me out, what if this is what happened?" scenario. In no way is it meant to be taken as a swipe at NRS. The phrase we all work for NRS with no pay is based soley on the possibility that the scenario occurred. If that scenario occurred, then this game might have been released on time table alone with full knowledge they still needed to work out the kinks, full knowledge that the SCENE would find new kinks to work out, and full knowledge they had the capability to fix said kinks in time for EVO.

So my question to you Tremloc, is twofold:

1. Is the above scenario likely, unlikely, crapshoot?

2. Cmon, poor Quan Chi, Right??!!

I know I quoted you and it made it seem like I was singling you out when that was not my intention. In fact your scenario is exactly what happens, but not for the nefarious reasons people think. The logistics of it are in the sheer volume of numbers. When you have a QA team consisting of 30 - 60 members things are going to be missed. It's encouraging that NRS took the steps to bring the highest level players on as contract employees to find things that normal QA departments won't. Those QA people aren't professional fighting game players, they're going to miss things that are perhaps obvious to tournament level players.

You legitimately miss bugs because such a small number of people are playing your game. When you have tens or even hundreds playing during pre-release that doesn't compare to the hundreds of thousands (or millions, since it's a safe assumption that mk9 has sold over a million copies) that are playing now.

I fully expect NRS went into this knowing the community was going to find fairly serious issues within days or even hours of the game being available to the public. This is not unusual, it's the reality of the situation in a game as incredibly complex as mk9 is.

2) QC. I really do like him as a character. REO is doing some sick things with him.

 

[STORMS]

Im not going to read every reply in order to really justify closing this thread rather get the feel for it overall by just a few pages. NRS cares .... and they are patching the games flaws the best they can. They're also coming out to tournaments... and at the end of the day the only ones justified to bitch about anything are the veterans of MK competitive play because they have been working for years to get MK in the very place it is now. Have you guys seen who NRS mentioned in their strategy guide? Did they mention all of the people bitching and hating on MK? No, they mentioned the ones who have done more for MK than any one person complaining has done.

At the end of the day it's up to those dedicated and NO ONE else... for MKs survival.