Awesome Argument on WNF

[Organelle]

Awesome argument between Tom Brady, Aris, and the guys at Offcast.

Tune in to justin.tv/offcast

What do you guys think about what all these guys said?

Edit: I have to say I 100% agree with Tom Brady. I don't think NR is incapable of making this game tournament caliber and balanced as Aris suggested, but I do think Tom Brady is right in that they need to hotfix/patch the major glitches faster.

Right now it seems like MK9 is heading down the road of Gears 2. And Skeet along with others are too nice in that they understand things take time. In normal game land that is true, but in tournament game land things have to happen on the fly.

Starcraft/Starcraft 2 are my origins. I got into fighting games casually throughout my gaming career. I had to quit sc2 because of the gf/life. So now I am working on becoming a full time tournament player for fighting games exclusively (full time as in gaming career, not real career). The problem is, capcom seems to be the only one getting it right. Granted there are major balance issues, but they are constantly patching and revising to fix them, just like blizzard. Just like epic claims they will do for gears 3. Just like bungie did for halo. Just like valve did for CS and Team Fortress 2. Any company/game that claims it is tournament caliber needs to except the responsibilities/consequences of that claim. I already picked up AE to start learning it incase netherrealms doesn't live up to the claims it made.

I love MK, I also found it to be the most fun fighter. I like casual MK9 better then casual MvC3 and SF4:AE. MK9 is just more fun. But now if they want me to sink the time in to become pro and compete for accolades, they have to unbreak it. They got the fun factor right, but they got the tournament factor wrong so far.

I also agree with Tom and Aris that the patch needs to come out BEFORE evo. After evo is too late, since most serious fighting game players claim they will drop MK9 from the tournament scene if the major bugs aren't gone by evo. Get your butts in gear netherrealms. I built an arcade cabinet in honor of mk9s reboot. I got 2 pdp sticks because I like that layout better for mk, street fighter, and mvc. Now get MK9 itself right so that I can use my pdp sticks for mk9 more then I use them for SF.

Aside: As for how I can use that lay out ... I grew up on it and have big hands so the way I hold my stick, I can hit all 6 buttons independently without moving my hand (thumb on tag, index on 2, hand pad on 1, middle on block, ring on 4, and pinky on 3 ==> I definitely recommend trying out the hold if you can, it has improved the game of some of my friends who are pretty darn good at fighters quite a bit).

 

[CaliJokerstyle]

Caught the tail end missed a lot what happened.

 

[Jack Slate]

I also caught the end of it, it made me sad because I think it pretty much cemented the idea that mortal kombat didn't have a chance at being a tournament worthy fighting game. I hope some of you folks that also heard it, can spin it in a much more positive manner, so I can keep playing MK .

 

[Ermac Dre]

general points of what happened:

*Skisonic is an idiot, as usual. He spoke to the guys at NRS at E3 and they said that the stuff will come out soon enough (he MIGHT HAVE said AFTER EVO).

*Aris said that if NRS claims they can make a tournament level game and can't deliver patches ASAP, then they bit off more than they can chew and they aren't capable of making good fighting games.

*Tom Brady thinks that the stuff needs to be fixed ASAP due to all these major tournaments, and the fact that EVO is a month from now means it needs to get fixed or else people are gonna get randomed out by bomb traps and block infinites.

*Skisonic's idiotic response is that there's broken stuff like freezing glitches in mvc2, so its okay for MK9 to be like this.

Overall - this whole argument would have never happened if the fix actually came out this week like previously stated.

 

[Organelle]

I also caught the end of it, it made me sad because I think it pretty much cemented the idea that mortal kombat didn't have a chance at being a tournament worthy fighting game. I hope some of you folks that also heard it, can spin it in a much more positive manner, so I can keep playing MK .

That wasn't the point. The point was that it can be tournament caliber if NR delivers on its promises, and the problem is that so far they haven't. And the big problem is that the pro players feel that NR is spitting in their faces with all these empty promises.

Basically it seems the scene will drop the game if NR doesn't start living up to all these 'tournament' claims, and frankly I can't blame them.

All of blizzards success can be attributed to their endless and constant support and balancing of their games, and if fighting games want to be taken just as seriously, companies need to step up to that degree. I mean DLC can provide consistent profit generation as capcom has proven, but NR needs to make a game worthy of having its dlc purchased. I for one have no intention of buying any characters unless I see that they plan to support this game as much as they claim.

Some argue that the DLC will promote patching and support, and I disagree. Capcom patches and supports and throws dlc out at their leisure. Where as NR has dlc'd and dlc'd and seems to be throwing patches and hotfixes out at their leisure. They have it backwards right now.

general points of what happened:

*Skisonic is an idiot, as usual. He spoke to the guys at NRS at E3 and they said that the stuff will come out soon enough (he MIGHT HAVE said AFTER EVO).

*Aris said that if NRS claims they can make a tournament level game and can't deliver patches ASAP, then they bit off more than they can chew and they aren't capable of making good fighting games.

*Tom Brady thinks that the stuff needs to be fixed ASAP due to all these major tournaments, and the fact that EVO is a month from now means it needs to get fixed or else people are gonna get randomed out by bomb traps and block infinites.

*Skisonic's idiotic response is that there's broken stuff like freezing glitches in mvc2, so its okay for MK9 to be like this.

Overall - this whole argument would have never happened if the fix actually came out this week like previously stated.

Skisonic is precisely the problem with fighting games. Companies like NR know that we will buy 11, 12, 13, 14 even if they are crap because they are fun to play with friends. But those that want a more serious gaming experience, or the guys that make a living gaming know that the company needs to support a game and extend its life.

MvC2 is a game that was pre patch technology and capcom was releasing multiple revisions even back then. What Skisonic should do is compare mk9 to contemporary tournament fighters like mvc3 and sf4 that are constantly undergoing revision, some major, some minor, just like starcraft.

 

[CaliJokerstyle]

Blizzard is a bad example man they are a big one that does not live up to their promises but i get what you are saying.

 

[Sequel]

It goes beyond glitches and infinites though. The game is far too generic and lacks any real depth (Note: I didnt say it had NO depth) to be taken seriously at the highest competitive level. After MKDC, fans cried out for Blood and real Fatals. NRS delivered beyond our expectations. They added some elements of hardcore play but left out so much for it to be worthy of a tournament level fighter.

I hope they don't make the same mistake with MK10.

 

[Rathalos]

90% chance the thing holding up getting the patch out is MS and sony certification process, shit takes forever and you have to jump through hoops with bullshit requirements.
Blizzard doesn't have to go through any of that because there games are on the PC, and they are a HUGE company, they can make a patch in an hour and put it out in the next hour, it can take weeks for console patches to come out.

Also capcom doesn't really change balance through patches, sans the random ass sentinel nerf for MVC3, and thats only because it doesn't have an arcade version, so there is nothing holding them back.

I think this game has a grimm future honestly, I don't think the game was done at all, I think them getting into evo was both a neat thing, but a bad thing for the game overall, evo is too good to resist, so delaying the game was not an option.
However, its a bit to early to whine about patches, If its not out in the next two weeks though, ya somethings up.

 

[Organelle]

Blizzard is a bad example man they are a big one that does not live up to their promises but i get what you are saying.

In terms of competitive play promises, I don't know what company does a better job. Granted they are slow as balls in getting the games out, but once it is out they have no problem supporting it actively as long as there is a scene.

I mean look at TYM or any other mortal kombat 9 site. They seem to be plummeting in activity pre-Evo already. It seems like the game is already post-hype and needs to prove itself a legitimate long term contender now rather then later if they want to suck interest back in. I mean I really don't feel like turning my MK cabinet into an sf cabinet ;D. After all, the SF art blows, and it just wouldn't feel right turning a nice refurbished american cabinet into a japanese cabinet. All joking aside, I took NR's promises at face value, and since most companies that have made such extreme claims have actually been making a conscious effort to deliver, NR needs to do the same. If I waste my time trying to get pro at this game, and then they don't support it and just rush MK11, this company will have lost me as a customer forever. MvC2 has been played over 10 years. SF2 has been played over 10 years. Now SF4 is already at 3 years, and MvC3 still has so much hype that I am sure they have no lifespan concerns.

NR really just needs to take a page out of Capcom and Blizzard's books as far as I am concerned. Frame data releases, improved training mode, and glitch fixes would be a good start.

It goes beyond glitches and infinites though. The game is far too generic and lacks any real depth (Note: I didnt say it had NO depth) to be taken seriously at the highest competitive level. After MKDC, fans cried out for Blood and real Fatals. NRS delivered beyond our expectations. They added some elements of hardcore play but left out so much for it to be worthy of a tournament level fighter.

I hope they don't make the same mistake with MK10.

While I do agree with you on some points, I disagree that they got the aesthetics wrong. I mean the game feels very mortal kombat which is what made me buy it after not having bought an mk since deadly alliance.

...and I can honestly say that if they don't get MK9 right, I won't be buying mk10. I wasted too much time an effort getting good at this game for them not to support it. And ten to just start from scratch and make a new game full of bugs an nonsense would be a terrible direction for them to take it.

Since they got it almost right, they need to take a few baby steps and go all the way to getting it right with mk9.

90% chance the thing holding up getting the patch out is MS and sony certification process, shit takes forever and you have to jump through hoops with bullshit requirements.
Blizzard doesn't have to go through any of that because there games are on the PC, and they are a HUGE company, they can make a patch in an hour and put it out in the next hour, it can take weeks for console patches to come out.

Also capcom doesn't really change balance through patches, sans the random ass sentinel nerf for MVC3, and thats only because it doesn't have an arcade version, so there is nothing holding them back.

I think this game has a grimm future honestly, I don't think the game was done at all, I think them getting into evo was both a neat thing, but a bad thing for the game overall, evo is too good to resist, so delaying the game was not an option.
However, its a bit to early to whine about patches, If its not out in the next two weeks though, ya somethings up.

Yeah, my point with capcom was pre-internet patching being available, capcom was already revising existing games. Instead of releasing a new game every year, they had an updates super random uber turbo. And some casual gamers mock them for this, but most tournament players will admit they love it because it does allow for balancing without having to learn an entirely new game with entirely new mechanics. They are building on their existing foundation.

For example, rather then see mk10 get rushed out. NR needs to realize mk9 was very successful and is still selling well, so they should be supporting it while working on an ultimate mk9 on the side. If they show me that they are supporting mk9 and then release and ultimate mk9 with some major revisions, I will be much more likely to drop money on an updated version of a game I already love, rather then throw that game aside for whatever entirely new game they release.

 

[CaliJokerstyle]

their biggest mistake was just saying they were making a tourney quality game. If they hadn't made the expectation people would have been surprised by things rather than dissapointed. Just my thought.

In terms of competitive play promises, I don't know what company does a better job. Granted they are slow as balls in getting the games out, but once it is out they have no problem supporting it actively as long as there is a scene.

I have a lot of friends at Blizzard who say they take their sweet time and cut corners. and also they are PC which is a thousand times easier to patch but they still do it very slowly.

 

[DanCock]

any link to the stream video? and when does the talk start?? and if they dont patch the game soon ill make sure i use sindel infinite at ECT over and over O_O

 

[Juggs]

http://www.justin.tv/offcast/b/287677068

It starts @ around 1:15:00

 

[Sequel]

Blizzard supports the competitive scene by not just patching their game but literally throwing money and sponsoring leagues. NRS is backed by a huge corporation, "Warner Bros." - it's not like they don't have money. No excuses.

 

[PunchYaFace]

It goes beyond glitches and infinites though. The game is far too generic and lacks any real depth (Note: I didnt say it had NO depth) to be taken seriously at the highest competitive level. After MKDC, fans cried out for Blood and real Fatals. NRS delivered beyond our expectations. They added some elements of hardcore play but left out so much for it to be worthy of a tournament level fighter.

I hope they don't make the same mistake with MK10.

But why do you say there is no depth? I'm not saying your wrong, I just don't understand it. It hasn't been out that long. Have all the ins and outs already been discovered? It just seems too early to call this one dead with no meta game. Can someone explain why it has hit a ceiling?( I'm decent, not great so I don't fully know the ins and outs).

 

[Sequel]

But why do you say there is no depth? I'm not saying your wrong, I just don't understand it. It hasn't been out that long. Have all the ins and outs already been discovered? It just seems too early to call this one dead with no meta game. Can someone explain why it has hit a ceiling?( I'm decent, not great so I don't fully know the ins and outs).

I said: (Note: I didn't say it had NO depth)

 

[PunchYaFace]

I said: (Note: I didn't say it had NO depth)

Ok my bad. I miss quoted you. But can you answer the rest of my post?

 

[Organelle]

their biggest mistake was just saying they were making a tourney quality game. If they hadn't made the expectation people would have been surprised by things rather than dissapointed. Just my thought.



I have a lot of friends at Blizzard who say they take their sweet time and cut corners. and also they are PC which is a thousand times easier to patch but they still do it very slowly.

Well the tourney claim is what brought me back to MK. And a lot of folks I know came back for that same reason which just makes us all feel all the more shafted.

any link to the stream video? and when does the talk start?? and if they dont patch the game soon ill make sure i use sindel infinite at ECT over and over O_O

Even though it is frowned upon, like tom brady said, I think everyone should use any non-banned infinites at evo or etc or any major upcoming tournament to show NR what it means to have made the claim that they are now tournament caliber.

Blizzard supports the competitive scene by not just patching their game but literally throwing money and sponsoring leagues. NRS is backed by a huge corporation, "Warner Bros." - it's not like they don't have money. No excuses.

I 100% agree. People act like NR doesn't have the resources. Mind you, I was a game tester at Midway back in Chicago. I can attest to the fact that they were small and struggling (even when it seemed like they weren't to the public eye). But now with the backing of the WB, the relationship they have with evo and mlg right now, they have the potential to make MK9 the biggest, most visible fighter. Rather then focus on the profits they make from sales, they need to support the MK community and bank on advertising and all the other means of generating profits that they are neglecting.

 

[Rathalos]

Blizzard supports the competitive scene by not just patching their game but literally throwing money and sponsoring leagues. NRS is backed by a huge corporation, "Warner Bros." - it's not like they don't have money. No excuses.

Its not really in WB best interest for the game to be a tourney viable game, there in it for the casual money, and fighting game tournaments don't profit them. The star craft scene is only profitable to blizzard because of all the shit that korea has done for the game, and the fact it is broadcasted on live TV over there, its there fucking national sport, the fighting game scene can't even compare to that.

For better or worse, MK is a brand that will sell no matter what, even if the game is completele horse shit, I applaud NRS for even bothering to try to make a non shitty game at this point, as retarded as that sounds.

 

[CaliJokerstyle]

I am the same way Organ but thats the problems with promises in video games if you miss your screwed

 

[Konqrr]

Loved the "discussion" on the stream. A lot of things that needed to be said came out. I agree that this patch needed to be out already, but getting a patch certified through PSN and M$ isn't as simple as it sounds, and all the coding/testing/repeat, yada yada... but this shit needed to come out yesterday.

As for the comment on the lack of activity on MK forums lately, we are ALL waiting for the patch to work with the new changes.

 

[M2Dave]

The game and the scene are going to be fine. The patch will be released before Evo. The DLCs will most likely be released after Evo. I think I speak for all members who have been here since MK: D when I say that there is a lot of potential with MK9.

 

[Sequel]

Ok my bad. I miss quoted you. But can you answer the rest of my post?

Sure thing.

It lacks any real depth because there are no links, no real footsies, can't bait tech throws because it's a 50/50 guessing game, everyone has the same neutral jump punch, kick, jump forward punch and kick, same crouching pokes that do not link into combos, and EVERYTHING causes DAMAGE on BLOCK which allows no real wake up game because at a pixel of life left you can literally get POKED to death.

This makes for a very generic fighter and the meta game SUFFERS because of it. Has everything been found out yet? No but this is no Super Turbo - trust me. It won't take long to figure everything out to be honest. I would be shocked if a year from now there would be some new Kung technology or Ermac's won't still be using 22 xx lift for max damage.

Do you see what I mean?

 

[DanCock]

The game and the scene are going to be fine. The patch will be released before Evo. The DLCs will most likely be released after Evo. I think I speak for all members who have been here since MK: D when I say that there is a lot of potential with MK9.

Hell yea!!!

i just wish that damn patch was already out..

 

[onejzgte]

After watching the stream I agree to some extent to all of the arguments that were made on the WNF stream. In a sense, everyone was RIGHT but at the sametime WRONG to a certain degree.

Skisonic made a good point that the workers at NRS were actually taking the time out of their schedules to come into the office , off the clock, to work on necessary patches and tweaks to help improve the game. And although he agrees that it is unacceptable to have issues such as block infinites or bomb traps present, during his generation players dealt with it and evolved around it.

Outkast also made a tremendously important and overlooked point that players need to understand; NRS is apart of a larger corporation, WB and the amount of time and work going into these patch projects are not paid (or within planned budget) and nor is it NRS decision to fully release patches or tweaks unless they get confirmation from WB (Not too sure about that but I'm going to assume since they're under their company) Sony, and Microsoft.

However, Aris and Tom Brady made great counter-arguments that were in the right direction but may have been executed quite harshly but bluntly needed. From a tournament players point of view, things need to be fixed quickly and as effectively as possible. No one wants to be punished for the amount of time and work they put into a character only to find out their reads, strategies, and efforts can go undone by another in mere seconds. That type of frustration will drive anyone mad.

But what I liked most about Aris' arguement is that he made a good point, if you're a company who claims they want to cater to the tournament community then you better follow through, otherwise players will hold it against you (which we witnessed). I disagree with Aris that MK is incapable, with experience and feedback hopefully they can provide a much better game, but I do agree with Aris %100 that if you claim its a tournament worthy game, then issues like block infinites, and bomb traps, and breakers that go punished (really I spend 2 bars and I get punish?) should be addressed ASAP. Otherwise, you do not in fact, have a tournament worthy game. Take Capcom's SF4 for example, the only real issue was overpowered characters and minor hitbox and frame data, but in tournaments these problems could easily be overcome with better and smarter play.

So you may ask "then why can't MK9 players do the same? Suck it up and find a strat to counter these infinites and traps". The reason why is because simply you can't. The level of fairness, in terms of a tournaments player stand point, is not even present. A well executed Cyrax bomb trap will get you every single time. "Why not just hold back and hope he mistimes it and your juggled, causing you to fall instantly after the bomb" because I DO NOT WANT TO HOPE.

Tom Brady also made great arguments, from a tournament players perspective. As a player competing in big events such as CEO and Revelations, you would expect to have these changes done by then, ESPECIALLY if the company is fully aware of it and IT SHOULD BE. Players put a lot of money, time, and overall investment into training and to come to a LARGE TOURNAMENT where you're already handicapped is in my opinion, NOT A TOURNAMENT WORTHY GAME (given its current condition).

True it can be done, fixed, and I'm sure it will eventually be completed. But I agree with Aris, Ski, and Outkast (sorry don't know your name) to a reasonable extent and I can see where they're coming from, BUT as a tournament player I agree with Tom %100 that if we do not have a patch AT LEAST BY EVOLUTION 2011 then this will be a PROBLEM, and I can guarantee a large portion of the community will DROP THIS GAME; not all BUT MOST.

So, as for my opinion, all I want to say is if you're going to advertise a game and push purposely to have the game at Evolution 2011 but not have it FULLY, or mostly, at a level of a TOURNAMENT-WORTHY GAME, KNOWING that you want it there and have all these hopeful players BUY YOUR GAME and TRAIN in hope that they can COMPETE WITH THE BEST only to find that they're already at a disadvantage is a HUGE NEGATIVE for me.

I don't want to be naive and turn a blind-eye and assume everything is alright, but in terms of brand and from a consumer perspective and a tournament player who would like to compete at that level, if the patch does not get out before EVOLUTION 2011 I will feel that NRS and MAYBE WB have scammed me out of my $60 dollars, because knowing a game will be at evolution, again from a tournament perspective is a prestige and reassuring feeling that such a game is a TOURNAMENT WORTHY GAME and if its not to that standard, NRS as a company will lose face; NOT to the REGULAR CONSUMER but DEFINITELY TO THE TOURNAMENT FIGHTING GAME COMMUNITY.


I apologize if the write up is a bit lengthy but I thought it would be a nice addition to someone who was listening in.

 

[Samsung Crunchy]

Hmmm I've must left before this went down. Last thing I saw was SkiSonic yelling into the mic. Maybe that was it...