Match-up Discussion Killer Frost In-Depth Analysis for Match-Ups

[Rickyraws]

111 4 is +15 on block. Once they block that, they must respect the 50/50. If they try to jump, backdash, poke, etc, they get blown up.

Even coming from YOU blocking? IE, Batman finishes his string and tries to neutral or cross over jump and you press 111?
In practice it worked the same way as the videos: I'd either catch him as he tries to jump, he blocks, or it connects.

 

[xKhaoTik]

Even coming from YOU blocking? IE, Batman finishes his string and tries to neutral or cross over jump and you press 111?
In practice it worked the same way as the videos: I'd either catch him as he tries to jump, he blocks, or it connects.

Which string tho? Some of batman's are advantage on block so pressing 111 might get you blown up.

Also, Batman's j2 is negative on block. If you block that, you can attack him before he can.

 

[Rickyraws]

Which string tho? Some of batman's are advantage on block so pressing 111 might get you blown up.

Also, Batman's j2 is negative on block. If you block that, you can attack him before he can.

With what though? I recall actually posting asking why NOTHING I did interrupted his follow up in practice. J2 on block to anything blew me up. I'll test it again...

 

[Konqrr]

Fought my first Hawkgirl today... how the hell do you fight this bitch? All of KF's attacks go in the wrong place lol

 

[YOMI MITYEAP]

xKhaoTikx, I know you have to be patient vs GL as DJT mains GL and he is very good with him, but I still have to say it is 6 4. My main reason is spikes don't work vs him since they hit low so he can just air missle over them. Also he can blow up slides well if he makes a read on them and her only legit wakeup is slide, which makes her predictable when he gains a knockdown. He has better footsies and space control than her, and he has an easier time keeping a lead. But i'd like to hear your point of view on the matchup.

 

[-LD50-]

Fought my first Hawkgirl today... how the hell do you fight this bitch? All of KF's attacks go in the wrong place lol

the future of kf:

every player that wants to win a tourney and will face a KF: learn hawkgirl on even a mediocre level. Pick hawkgirl vs KF in tourney. auto-win due to matchup.

Convinced KF doesnt belong in S tier. I'm pretty new to fighters but still, i dont see how a character with such holes in her gameplay (AWFUL aa and air-to-air) could be in S tier

it confuses me

 

[Konqrr]

the future of kf:

every player that wants to win a tourney and will face a KF: learn hawkgirl on even a mediocre level. Pick hawkgirl vs KF in tourney. auto-win due to matchup.

Convinced KF doesnt belong in S tier. I'm pretty new to fighters but still, i dont see how a character with such holes in her gameplay (AWFUL aa and air-to-air) could be in S tier

it confuses me

Fucking this ^^

HG vs KF is the Kenshi vs Kitana of Injustice

We don't even have the yolo EX fan to throw out because the bitch is always airborne lol

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

Fucking this ^^

HG vs KF is the Kenshi vs Kitana of Injustice

We don't even have the yolo EX fan to throw out because the bitch is always airborne lol

can you not get under her and uppercut?
Nightwing has this same problem... Hawkgirls flying simply negates EVERYTHING he can do.

I want to know what you think about Grundy. Personally i think it is a solid "who is better" MU.

 

[Konqrr]

can you not get under her and uppercut?
Nightwing has this same problem... Hawkgirls flying simply negates EVERYTHING he can do.

I want to know what you think about Grundy. Personally i think it is a solid "who is better" MU.

No she is too high and fuck Grundy... once he knocks KF down in the corner, she is done.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

No she is too high and fuck Grundy... once he knocks KF down in the corner, she is done.

damn
Forever Free.

 

[16 Bit]

Killer Frost has pretty good anti-air. I have no complaints.

 

[Dulllyanna]

Speaking from the side of HG, you have to be patient against air mace shit and not try to make random jumps or dashes at fullscreen. Try to block and dash after downwards mace while watching out for EX (Easier said than done, I know) until you're within healthy range to hit her with a jump-in. At that point it becomes a mixup between her trying to preemptively stuff a jump attack with fly normals or dive kick, move forward and out of your range or beat shit with air mace charge, or get down and escape with EX air mace or dive kick. At this point if you aren't going to risk jump immediately b/c of retribution you need to wait and see if she does fly 2/mace charge/or EX air mace/or dive kick in an attempt to escape or hit you and respond appropriately . This is EXTREMELY important, the most important part of the matchup for almost every character in the game. Whiff punish with jump into float combo for the first two. If you block EX air mace she's at + but outside of mixup range, so be smart and don't panic, but if it whiffs you should get free ice spike if not slide (I'm not sure about the latter). Dive kick is punishable if she does it above minimum height, you need to be extremely fast though. Sometimes she floats after so I'd advise confirming 111 xx w/e or whatever float combo or appropriate punish KF has. Note that she can technically only fly for ab0ut 8 seconds, if you've been turtling fullscreen this entire time try to keep track of the time and see what she does, punishing with ground spike or super if you have it. I'd argue the latter is worth it, because most characters have to fight Hawgirl on her own grounds in a shitty war of attrition where both sides typically do mediocre damage.

As for dealing with ground mace charge and wing evade stance: You bait these by jumping neutral or back. Ideally backwards b/c her d2 is an amazing AA, but you can only punish WE 2 (The flip kick overhead) by neutral jump or making it whiff by walking backwards (Not backdashing, the recovery on whiff is far too good). Unfortunately the latter "loses" to mace charge and WE 3 (The fast fucking horizontal flying kick that's like -1 on block with really fast recovery) which are both 100% safe on block. Both options lose to backwards jump and reacting with a jumping move with a strong crossup hitbox. Both options are also her only wakeup attacks so be aware of that. These all work if she does this by cancelling from d1 and other moves/strings too, I highly advise using record mode in training mode to get a feel for this. On that subject, if she fly cancels normals, you generally get a free d2 or jab into combo, but you need to be fairly quick on the uptake and these often lose/trade to the MC and WE cancels, and divekick will hit you if you're slow or try to crouch jab her.

One last thing: if she has full bar, a life lead, and you can't afford to eat a super DO NOT FUCK AROUND. Don't jump, don't whiff, don't bother trying to punish fly landing recovery if you aren't 100% sure you'll hit her out of the air (She can cancel the recovery into super immediately) and while I'm not sure but she might be able to punish ice spike on block, at least within a certain range. It's not quite superman fast but it's still got range, speed, and the hitbox to mess you up for screwing around. Also for god knows what reason it's overhead even though it looks like a grab... not that I'm saying this should be one.

I hope this all helps, imho it's still a really ugly matchup for KF but knowing the fundamentals of the HG matchup is really important to beating her with almost any character. I know it's a lot of shit to read but thems the breaks.

Edit: I forgot to mention that while getting in, once you're in the range where dashing will put you in divekick range you need to stop and just block instead. There's a sweet spot in between the air mace and her divekick where you can safely crouch without giving up ground, but you need to pay very close attention so that she doesn't adjust her spacing a bit, dropkick your head, and ruin all your hard work. Also you can tech roll divekick on hit so that she doesn't get hella advantage and wakes. If she lands sweep and dashes you basically need to guess 3 ways + throw, since she can dive kick, crossup divekick, or sweep again and none are escapable except with wakeups.

 

[xKhaoTik]

xKhaoTikx, I know you have to be patient vs GL as DJT mains GL and he is very good with him, but I still have to say it is 6 4. My main reason is spikes don't work vs him since they hit low so he can just air missle over them. Also he can blow up slides well if he makes a read on them and her only legit wakeup is slide, which makes her predictable when he gains a knockdown. He has better footsies and space control than her, and he has an easier time keeping a lead. But i'd like to hear your point of view on the matchup.

I already gave my point of view a few posts earlier Lol. But I'll answer this one. Spikes work fine. I can duck the ground projectile and counter with spike, and MB gives me a full combo. Same with his machine gun. If he whiffs that, spike.


You have to read a slide to blow it up on wake-up. Read wrong, and you have to block it or get hit. Yes, slide is my legit wake-up, but It's a Damn good one and GL's wake-up is suicide Lol. Your lift is Hella punishable on whiff and block. So I definitely have the wake-up advantage.

Upclose, Idk, it seems about even to me. B1 is suicide because of parry, and ending strings with turbine gets blown up. Your normals are better but I can play footsies as well and I have devastating frame traps that forces you to either pushblock or guess right on the 50/50.


when it comes to the life lead, both can hold it very well, but I do agree that GL holds it better. If I have the life lead, you have no choice but to come to me. MB machine gun doesn't touch me Full screen, air fireball doesn't touch me full screen, and i can duck the ground projectile. I can throw daggers while walking back to keep the space, and even if we trade, my projectile does more damage. Don't even think about approaching with air turbine because That's suicide. When GL gets the lead, he holds it better because of the zoning. I'm definitely gonna eat chip getting in, but I'm gonna get in eventually.


Idk man, I've played tons and tons of GL's, and I was Just at a tournament Full of GL's, so I'm definitely confident in saying its 5-5.

 

[YOMI MITYEAP]

I already gave my point of view a few posts earlier Lol. But I'll answer this one. Spikes work fine. I can duck the ground projectile and counter with spike, and MB gives me a full combo. Same with his machine gun. If he whiffs that, spike.


You have to read a slide to blow it up on wake-up. Read wrong, and you have to block it or get hit. Yes, slide is my legit wake-up, but It's a Damn good one and GL's wake-up is suicide Lol. Your lift is Hella punishable on whiff and block. So I definitely have the wake-up advantage.

Upclose, Idk, it seems about even to me. B1 is suicide because of parry, and ending strings with turbine gets blown up. Your normals are better but I can play footsies as well and I have devastating frame traps that forces you to either pushblock or guess right on the 50/50.


when it comes to the life lead, both can hold it very well, but I do agree that GL holds it better. If I have the life lead, you have no choice but to come to me. MB machine gun doesn't touch me Full screen, air fireball doesn't touch me full screen, and i can duck the ground projectile. I can throw daggers while walking back to keep the space, and even if we trade, my projectile does more damage. Don't even think about approaching with air turbine because That's suicide. When GL gets the lead, he holds it better because of the zoning. I'm definitely gonna eat chip getting in, but I'm gonna get in eventually.


Idk man, I've played tons and tons of GL's, and I was Just at a tournament Full of GL's, so I'm definitely confident in saying its 5-5.

I respect your view of the matchup for sure as you make some solid points, but you need to play some of that Vegas GL now haha, but i have gotten better at the matchup, and i wouldn't be surprised if you are right.

 

[tax]

as a kf player, my anti-hawkgirl strat is to pick up batgirl and smoke bomb all of her flying crap.

 

[-LD50-]

as a kf player, my anti-hawkgirl strat is to pick up batgirl and smoke bomb all of her flying crap.

as a kf player, my anti-losing strat was to switch mains to batgirl

 

[RiBBz22]

No she is too high and fuck Grundy... once he knocks KF down in the corner, she is done.

What I try to do is to dash under her when I think the flying is about to come to an end and just u3 into 22 grab. Sometimes you can sneak up there with a dash into a quick j3 to knock her out of the air and then you can try to go into a mixup when they are knocked down if the j3 doesn't leave you with enough time to follow up and combo.

 

[RiBBz22]

I respect your view of the matchup for sure as you make some solid points, but you need to play some of that Vegas GL now haha, but i have gotten better at the matchup, and i wouldn't be surprised if you are right.

I think it is 5-5 too for mostly the same reasons. The MU is only difficult when GL has the life lead tbh, because then I will have to eat chip and get through his zoning to work my way in...If he doesn't have the life lead I can get full screen really easy if I want to and just wait for him to come in and possibly force a mistake. Since GL's f3 has such little range, if I am on the edge of b1 range I don't really mind that much because I can just favor blocking low and as soon as the b1 comes out a parry will blow it up anything besides a cancel into special which is pretty risky. B3 is a really good footsie tool for GL in this MU though since we need to be looking for the b1 in that range where it will hit and if you end up blocking a b3 it is +7 which gives you a very tight window for a parry... and it might end up being better just to properly block the follow-up pressure.

 

[RiBBz22]

I seriously feel like there is possibly no saltier moment than when you interrupt someone's strings or pressure with a MB parry and they are just frozen standing there. It is so hype. The best is Doomsday players after the ex shoulder ram into more pressure...It's like ya you just wasted a bar for some chip and I just spent a bar to blow you up. I think Doomsday is an awesome character but because of the parry alone Frost has to be one of his worst MU's.

 

[Rickyraws]

I already gave my point of view a few posts earlier Lol. But I'll answer this one. Spikes work fine. I can duck the ground projectile and counter with spike, and MB gives me a full combo. Same with his machine gun. If he whiffs that, spike.


You have to read a slide to blow it up on wake-up. Read wrong, and you have to block it or get hit. Yes, slide is my legit wake-up, but It's a Damn good one and GL's wake-up is suicide Lol. Your lift is Hella punishable on whiff and block. So I definitely have the wake-up advantage.

Upclose, Idk, it seems about even t
Idk man, I've played tons and tons of GL's, and I was Just at a tournament Full of GL's, so I'm definitely confident in saying its 5-5.

When you say GL's B+1 is suicide because of parry, this is because you can parry his 3 or 2 follow up, correct? Or is it for some other reason...the b+1 is low so parry doesn't catch it. Practice mode has been inconsistent in terms of parrying the 3 in the follow up

 

[RiBBz22]

When you say GL's B+1 is suicide because of parry, this is because you can parry his 3 or 2, correct? Or is it for some other reason...the b+1 is low so parry doesn't catch it

parry interrupts b12 and b13 in-between the b1 and the 2 or 3

 

[Rickyraws]

I seriously feel like there is possibly no saltier moment than when you interrupt someone's strings or pressure with a MB parry and they are just frozen standing there. It is so hype. The best is Doomsday players after the ex shoulder ram into more pressure...It's like ya you just wasted a bar for some chip and I just spent a bar to blow you up. I think Doomsday is an awesome character but because of the parry alone Frost has to be one of his worst MU's.

It's like Subzero back jumping after pressure into an ice clone and you jumping into it KNOWING he was gonna do it. Even the pros get salty.

 

[RunwayMafia]

Here is my day 2 Killer Frost (I know there's a lot more I could have done..but I'm still learning her) vs my friend who seems to be taking to Bat Girl very well.

 

[Konqrr]

Grundy's hitbox is so dumb... you literally can't use J2 on him ever as it completely whiffs when he crouches unless done from jump distance. He will uppercut you for free every time for 50%.

 

[Konqrr]

RiBBz22 GGA 16 Bit Jer Claude VonStroke xKhaoTikx
Specific punishes and information vs Grundy's trait used in his blockstrings:

You can jump out of his trait and get a full combo if he cancels any string into his Trait grab. Be aware that he can also cancel into his Cleaver Spin to hit you out of any jump attempt. If you read that he will do a Cleaver, you can punish with 111~Black Ice.

This is where Frost does much better than most characters against Grundy. She can parry both options, Trait and Cleaver, with the same timing.

If you do decide to jump out and get a full combo, here is what to look for and what the best combos are:

- Block 1~4 [NJ]
-- (You can Jump out in any direction or backdash)

- Block d2~4 [NJ] (you can punish d2 with 22~Black Ice, but not if he cancels to Trait)
-- (You can Jump out in any direction or backdash)
-- (You can d1~Black Ice)

- Block d1~4 [NJ] (watch out for d13)
-- (If low blocking, you can only d1~Black Ice)
-- (If high blocking, you can d1 or 111~Black Ice)

- Block f13~4 [NJ]
-- (You can Jump out in any direction or backdash)
-- (You can d1~Black Ice)

- Block 112~4 [NJ high block] [UF low block]
-- (For this particular string, you cannot Neutral Jump (NJ) if you block the 112 string low, you can only jump forward or back. What you can do if you block the first hit low is to stand block the last two then you can NJ.)

Neutral Jump punishes:
1a) NJ2~f113~Black Ice, u3, u3, Sweep (38%) then combo "1c"...
1b) NJ2~f113~Black Ice, u3, u3, u3, 1~Iceberg MB, Sweep (46%) then combo "1c"...
1c) Flash Freeze MB, NJ2~f113~Black Ice, u3, u3, u3, 11~Iceberg (45%)
-- (Combo "1c" cannot be avoided after the sweep in either of the previous combos if timed properly unless they do a wakeup attack.)

2) NJ2~f113~Black Ice, u3, u3, u3, 11~Iceberg (46%)

3a) NJ2~f113~Black Ice, u3, 22~Flash Freeze MB, NJ2~f113~Frozen Daggers (47%)
3b) NJ2~f113~Black Ice, u3, f113~Flash Freeze MB, NJ2~f113~Frozen Daggers (50%)
3c) NJ2~f113~Black Ice, u3, u3, 22~Flash Freeze MB, NJ2~f113~Frozen Daggers (51%)

Forward Jump (UF) punishes:
4a) J1~f113~Black Ice, u3, u3, Sweep (36%) then combo "4c"...
4b) J1~f113~Black Ice, u3, u3, u3, 1~Iceberg MB, Sweep (44%) then combo "4c"...
4c) Flash Freeze MB, NJ2~f113~Black Ice, u3, u3, u3, 11~Iceberg (45%)
-- (Combo "4c" cannot be avoided after the sweep in either of the previous combos if timed properly unless they do a wakeup attack.)

5) J1~f113~Black Ice, u3, u3, u3, 11~Iceberg (44%)

6a) NJ2~f113~Black Ice, u3, 22~Flash Freeze MB, NJ2~f113~Frozen Daggers (45%)
6b) NJ2~f113~Black Ice, u3, f113~Flash Freeze MB, NJ2~f113~Frozen Daggers (48%)
6c) J1~f113~Black Ice, u3, u3, 22~Flash Freeze MB, NJ2~f113~Frozen Daggers (49%)

EDIT: Additional information about Grundy canceling his strings into Dead Air.

I know that you cannot parry Dead Air and in his 112 string in particular you cannot jump out in any direction either. Obviously the best thing to do against Dead Air is to block because you get a full f113~Slide punish... but it is too hard to see it coming and one of the only ways you can truly avoid it is to backdash or d1~Black Ice.

Ninja Edit --- I don't know why I didn't think to test this earlier, but you can MB f3 to beat literally all of his options from a blockstring.