Whats the point of 3/4 of the "wake up attacks" and "AAs" in the game?

[Under_The_Mayo]

I`m not coming down on a side of this argument yet... Simply because I remember a time..

A long time ago, back in MK9`s early days, everyone was up in arms about crossover punches and jump in punches being too prominent in the game. Go back to Evo 2011 and watch everyone jump abou like a maniac. And then, the CD Bros came along a full 5 months or so after the game and showed everyone how to standing jab and D1 everyone out of the air. It changed a lot. Yet still, we have jumpy jumpy all over MK9 in tournaments, and people get away with it, unless you`re fighting a great player that can shut it down.

So I guess what I`m saying is two things:
1) Maybe, just maybe, there`s a bit of a science to AAing in this game, it`s just that it hasn`t be discovered or fleshed out yet.
2) Even when we do find a great reliable AA option, the large majority of players will not become good at it, and they will continue to be jumped in on all day and complain about it.

And by the way, I play Catwoman (at the moment). I don`t have a great AA D2 or Standing 1 or special move. But you know what I DO have? MB F3. And I know everyone else has the option to burn a bar on F3 or B3 to punish someone`s jump in. So is this really an issue? Maybe part of the meter management game in Injustice is making sure you have the meter to knock someone out of the air into a combo. We don`t have uppercut jabs like SF. We don`t have ridiculous D1`s like MK. We don`t have gobs and gobs of bullshit to throw at them like Marvel. We have meter management and armored launchers. Is that something to complain about?

Pig Of The Hut
Ninj

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Under_The_Mayo I hear what you're saying, but I feel like the reverse might actually happen. A lot of people's f3's are very slow, 30 frames-ish. So slow that unless it is the most obvious and telegraphed of jump-ins, sometimes you end up getting hit twice and having your armor broken before it even comes out. Sometimes there's time to either block or actually start a b3 before the f3 comes out, so that you get hit out of the f3 and wallbounced for combo.

Likewise everyone says 'preemptively jump-whatever as an anti-air'. As a GL player I love this, because when you jump to anti-air me on a read, I either j3 stuff it for a full combo, or just wait patiently and lift you right out of the air for your troubles.

So over time, I can see players of certain characters actually becoming better at punishing AA attempts rather than better at AA'ing. But who knows.. Only time will tell.

I do feel like what the OP was saying though, is that the risk/reward for correctly reading a jump-in and connecting with a d2 or other attacks seems to be skewed for a lot of characters. Even before people were making good use of standing jabs and d1's in MK, if I hit you with an uppercut you got what you deserved.

 

[G4S KT]

Also idk why lanterns don't do this but dash under jump ins above your head and b12/3 or b1 mini gun them

jump back fierce bro. j/k in this game it's jump back 1

I honestly didn't mean to confuse. In Street Fighter they are referred to in the same way as Injustice, though the terminology is interchangeable. As it is in this game. But I can see how that would confuse someone. I apologize for not using the proper terminology though. That was my bad.

yea, the terminology is similar but in NRS games there is an important difference between a "reversal" and a "wake up" since wake ups are granted invincibility that they otherwise don't have. As opposed to street fighter where your uppercut is invincible regardless of whether you insert it into your opponent's block string or do it as you're rising from the ground.

 

[RapZiLLa54]

Under_The_Mayo I do feel like what the OP was saying though, is that the risk/reward for correctly reading a jump-in and connecting with a d2 or other attacks seems to be skewed for a lot of characters. Even before people were making good use of standing jabs and d1's in MK, if I hit you with an uppercut you got what you deserved.

Thats what I'm getting at. There seems to be 2 games made here. One game with the first 1/4 of the cast in mind since they have solid AAs and wake ups and then the other game with the 3/4 of cast pretty much at the mercy of that 1/4.

MK had basic fundamentals that applied to all characters that you can universally use and level up. So you're a beginnger you'd start off with uppercut, then you get more comfortable with the game you start working on standing 1 or 2 AA combos, then you advance to d1 combos on cross ups. Each all take a different level of skill.

This game out of the box says "These guys have this and these guys don't. Deal with it."

 

[dust.]

I think they made AA's bad in this game because of the fact that you can air juggle so easily. A game like Street Fighter, most reliable wakeup options are very good at AA'ing but will not lead to a big combo, whereas in Injustice one d2 AA can lead to ~40%+ of your health with some characters. Maybe that was their way of thinking when designing the combat.

Now I'm not saying that this is a good thing, since just jumping all over the place does make things pretty lame, but just offering a possible explanation. Also it makes the characters that DO have great AA's pretty damn ridiculous, since they can deal such big damage from pretty much any situation.

 

[The Gabriel]

I don't mind bad AA's, but the wakeup game is annoying. Honestly I haven't 100% figured out when and why the invincibility affects certain wakeup moves the way it does. Like Ares' god smack can get him out of the Ares reset on wakeup, but it will get stuffed by regular fast normals.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

I think they made AA's bad in this game because of the fact that you can air juggle so easily. A game like Street Fighter, most reliable wakeup options are very good at AA'ing but will not lead to a big combo, whereas in Injustice one d2 AA can lead to ~40%+ of your health with some characters. Maybe that was their way of thinking when designing the combat.

Yeah, but Aquaman can still do that, reliably That's kind of what Rapzilla was talking about.

 

[Ninj]

I wouldn't mistake mass jumping as a sign that the meta game encourages it.

I think the game is a month old, and jumping will always occur. Everyone has different dash speeds and jump arcs, etc...there's so much we haven't figured out about every character let alone the meta game that comes with actually pitting those characters against eachother.

I think Injustice is a very calculated fighter - it requires a lot of wherewithall for your surroundings, spacing, and planning. Putting your opponent in specific situations that allow you to do whatever it is you're trying to accomplish. I make this distinction particularly with MK9 - I feel like MK9 was more like jazz; players just figured out their strategies on the fly for the most part. This was possible because of the extreme mobility of all of the top tier characters (minus Kenshi, but he doesn't give a shit about where you are - EX SPIRIT CHARGE!).

These are just thoughts off the top of my head. I, like everyone else, am new to this game and while I think this is an interesting discussion and probably a worthwhile one, I think we need to acknowledge that there's simply a lot we don't know which makes it difficult to make a judgment call.

Under_The_Mayo

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

I wouldn't mistake mass jumping as a sign that the meta game encourages it.

I think the game is a month old, and jumping will always occur. Everyone has different dash speeds and jump arcs, etc...there's so much we haven't figured out about every character let alone the meta game that comes with actually pitting those characters against eachother.

I think Injustice is a very calculated fighter - it requires a lot of wherewithall for your surroundings, spacing, and planning. Putting your opponent in specific situations that allow you to do whatever it is you're trying to accomplish. I make this distinction particularly with MK9 - I feel like MK9 was more like jazz; players just figured out their strategies on the fly for the most part. This was possible because of the extreme mobility of all of the top tier characters (minus Kenshi, but he doesn't give a shit about where you are - EX SPIRIT CHARGE!).

These are just thoughts off the top of my head. I, like everyone else, am new to this game and while I think this is an interesting discussion and probably a worthwhile one, I think we need to acknowledge that there's simply a lot we don't know which makes it difficult to make a judgment call.

Under_The_Mayo

I agree with most of this

but the priority that some jump attacks have against GROUND attacks are dumb. Everyone seems to have a decently fast uppercut..... now some don't have the hitbox others do... but again.... that is fine.

The problem I have is that I see a cross up (lets use batman) j2. Awesome... he whiffed cuz he did it a tad early.... I d2.... and I GET FUCKING HIT. So he punishes me for trying to whiff punish him..... which is dumb. This happens ALL the time. Ares also has this... where his J2 has active frames that last forever.

I don't get that part of the game at all. Moves that are stationary (body splashe(s) and elbow drops) for long frames... also stay active for those frames...
If that is the POINT... then they should have 0 priority over grounded attacks.

 

[jaym7018]

I think they made AA's bad in this game because of the fact that you can air juggle so easily. A game like Street Fighter, most reliable wakeup options are very good at AA'ing but will not lead to a big combo, whereas in Injustice one d2 AA can lead to ~40%+ of your health with some characters. Maybe that was their way of thinking when designing the combat.

Now I'm not saying that this is a good thing, since just jumping all over the place does make things pretty lame, but just offering a possible explanation. Also it makes the characters that DO have great AA's pretty damn ridiculous, since they can deal such big damage from pretty much any situation.

This is kind of my point characters like aquaman superman and grundy have amazing AAs this is a massive advantage that most of the cast doesnt have and kinda screws up balance imo. I play aquaman and for the simple reason they have this massive advantage.

 

[Under_The_Mayo]

When I watch Marvel, I see constant jumping. Though that is largely an air based game and a bad example. However sometimes watching street fighter in tournaments, I still see a lot of jumping. Sure, not from every character. Guile players don`t have to jump much. But I still see top players sometimes go into crazy random jump mode. And I don`t think it makes the game look stupid. Even a month in, I`m watching injustice tournament steams, and I don`t think the game looks stupid. Sometimes people jump a lot, sometimes they don`t. I only think it looks stupid when they jump, unintentionally hit someone in an unexpected way, and then don`t follow up big. When everyone does do that, jumping will become less prevalent I think.

And not everyone is going to deal with AA the same way. Some characters have great AAs. Some characters like Catwoman can MB F3 easily. Sinestro can MB B3. Some characters have quick far dashes that recovery fast allowing for whiff punishing (landing jumps have long recovery for a reason, to be punished). We`ll find this stuff in time. We`ll get good at it in time.

In the end, I think a lot more characters will have good AA options than we think right now. It just isn`t easily spelled out. Not 100% of the cast. But I think it`s a big exaggeration to say only a handful of characters have good AA options just because they are the ones you can AA with by pressing a simple button.

 

[jaym7018]

When I watch Marvel, I see constant jumping. Though that is largely an air based game and a bad example. However sometimes watching street fighter in tournaments, I still see a lot of jumping. Sure, not from every character. Guile players don`t have to jump much. But I still see top players sometimes go into crazy random jump mode. And I don`t think it makes the game look stupid. Even a month in, I`m watching injustice tournament steams, and I don`t think the game looks stupid. Sometimes people jump a lot, sometimes they don`t. I only think it looks stupid when they jump, unintentionally hit someone in an unexpected way, and then don`t follow up big. When everyone does do that, jumping will become less prevalent I think.

And not everyone is going to deal with AA the same way. Some characters have great AAs. Some characters like Catwoman can MB F3 easily. Sinestro can MB B3. Some characters have quick far dashes that recovery fast allowing for whiff punishing (landing jumps have long recovery for a reason, to be punished). We`ll find this stuff in time. We`ll get good at it in time.

In the end, I think a lot more characters will have good AA options than we think right now. It just isn`t easily spelled out. Not 100% of the cast. But I think it`s a big exaggeration to say only a handful of characters have good AA options just because they are the ones you can AA with by pressing a simple button.

Every character in street fighter has an anti air except a couple. It isnt an exaggeration at all nobody can punish jump in like aquaman not even close not even grundy and superman. But there are many characters who have no option other than to block. I thnk as we go it will be apparent a big chunk of the cast will need buffs to their AAs just like what happened in SFXT.

 

[Under_The_Mayo]

Every character in street fighter has an anti air except a couple. It isnt an exaggeration at all nobody can punish jump in like aquaman not even close not even grundy and superman. But there are many characters who have no option other than to block. I thnk as we go it will be apparent a big chunk of the cast will need buffs to their AAs just like what happened in SFXT.

I don`t know much about SF, but if you whiff a jump in, are you full combo punishable due to long recovery frames from landing?

 

[jaym7018]

I don`t know much about SF, but if you whiff a jump in, are you full combo punishable due to long recovery frames from landing?

In SF just about every character has an anti air normal (except poor bison and a couple others) they dont lead to big combos for the most part. In SFXT at first the tekken characters for the most part had poor AAs which got buffed in the 2013 patch. The fact that in this game the characters that have good AAs can use them and turn them into 30% combos makes the imbalance really apparent when you compare the characters that have them to those that dont especially the guys with amazing D2s.

 

[Under_The_Mayo]

In SF just about every character has an anti air normal (except poor bison and a couple others) they dont lead to big combos for the most part. In SFXT at first the tekken characters for the most part had poor AAs which got buffed in the 2013 patch. The fact that in this game the characters that have good AAs can use them and turn them into 30% combos makes the imbalance really apparent when you compare the characters that have them to those that dont especially the guys with amazing D2s.

I know, I get that point of all this. But I`d like to know if jump whiff recovery is significant in those games as well to the point where if you miss a jump in, you can get full punished by a ground normal.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

I know, I get that point of all this. But I`d like to know if jump whiff recovery is significant in those games as well to the point where if you miss a jump in, you can get full punished by a ground normal.

no.

 

[K7L33THA]

I've noticed Capcom players love to jump like crazy in this game. I guess thats why they hate MK. Crossover? Nah, hold that d1 aa.

 

[jaym7018]

I know, I get that point of all this. But I`d like to know if jump whiff recovery is significant in those games as well to the point where if you miss a jump in, you can get full punished by a ground normal.

Depends on the attack and location of the attack. There are many safe jump ins in sf4. Safe jumps are used to bait out wake ups or reversals.

 

[jaym7018]

I've noticed Capcom players love to jump like crazy in this game. I guess thats why they hate MK. Crossover? Nah, hold that d1 aa.

Lol how in the blue hell do you know who is and isnt a capcom player. Most novices of any game jump like crazy.

 

[Trini_Bwoi]

How long did it take before we started D1 anti-airing in MK?

 

[jaym7018]

How long did it take before we started D1 anti-airing in MK?

I would hope it didnt take the community very long to figure out d1 was a universal AA ( i dont know if it is never played mk). Otherwise lol MK community

 

[Juggs]

I do kind of understand the lack of good AA's in this game. With dashes being long and walk speed slow, coupled in with the prevalence of zoning, there will be a lot of jumping. Plus the emphasis on air-to-air and juggle combos, it's obvious that the design was intended for you to jump. But why do some characters have very good AA's while the majority of the cast does not?

The characters that do have good AA's, like Aquaman and Superman, are already great characters. I could understand the technically weaker characters having good AA's, just to balance them out, but why do the already good characters have some of the only good AA's in the game? It makes me not want to even try to use a character other than Aquaman, who has the best d2 in the game.
.

 

[Trini_Bwoi]

I would hope it didnt take the community very long to figure out d1 was a universal AA ( i dont know if it is never played mk). Otherwise lol MK community

Yea those silly MK players how dare they not know right away that a poke would anti-air..

 

[Juggs]

In SF just about every character has an anti air normal (except poor bison and a couple others) they dont lead to big combos for the most part.

Bison has s.HK, it's a good anti-air.

 

[jaym7018]

Yea those silly MK players how dare they not know right away that a poke would anti-air..

Took me a week to figure out superman grundy and aquaman have the best anti air d2s if that. I thought it was common practice to find your characters best AA options when playing i fighting game. I guess t took a long time for someone in the MK to press d1 while their opponent was in the air and for that i cant help but SMH.