General/Other KILLER FROST - General Discussion Thread

[RiBBz22]

Has anyone else had issues with Solomon Grundy as KF? Any tips would be appreciated

(sorry if someone else asked this already)

Grundy completely blows up your slide and KF's entire footsie game with walking corpse. If you are playing a really good one who knows how to walking corpse cancel properly it can kind of deter you from doing a neutral jump to try and punish with a full combo because of the air grab. If they are not cancelling and letting the move finish all the time, then you can add neutral jumping + punishing as one means to deal with that move...

Luckily WC doesn't do a ton of damage, so you have quite a few opportunities to find other holes for a punish if one particular thing is not working. I normally try to space myself out further than full jump range and whiff punish the walking corpse on reaction after back-dashing away from it. However, when you are in this range you always have to worry about the swamp hands move since it is a low and leads to a f*** ton of damage...

In that MU, corpse honestly gives KF the biggest headache, so that should always be what you are looking to beat first off, then the MU becomes more of a standard one.

 

[Jeffreys]

Grundy surely beats Killer Frost, WCC negates almost everything KF does. after a meter burned WC Grundy can just go into 50/50s with a good chunk of damage and use health chain to take less damage. Killer Frosts 50/50 is the only way to keep this match even in my opinion.

 

[Zerosoulreaver]

Grundy is a problem for many characters it seems. Only thing that may help may be ice pillar which can be a nice tool and it may trade with hands. His grab just eats up whatever you throw at him and it's a bit hard to initiate.

I'm never sure how to approach this mach because you start a combo against his armor it's a bad look for you. You can't keep him out because he will always find a way in and really KF spacing of her ranged abilities is situational and momentary.

 

[Goatlegs]

I really only charge the trait at full screen as kind of like a semi-bait, or after strings you can cancel into trait charge. I don't like doing it after daggers because its only +9 or so and you can't immediately cancel into it. Plus ending in daggers off a string leaves your opponent pretty close to you.

For a longer charge, I like doing it after 1133 personally.

If you end a combo with it while they're in the air, for example ending a combo with 22~daggers, it sends them pretty far across the screen.

 

[RiBBz22]

Grundy is a problem for many characters it seems. Only thing that may help may be ice pillar which can be a nice tool and it may trade with hands. His grab just eats up whatever you throw at him and it's a bit hard to initiate.

I'm never sure how to approach this mach because you start a combo against his armor it's a bad look for you. You can't keep him out because he will always find a way in and really KF spacing of her ranged abilities is situational and momentary.

Swamp hands is +1 on block I am pretty sure, correct me if I am wrong. In any case, I am pretty sure that Frost can't punish it with Iceberg. I would be scared to trade as well because if his move comes out and Frost's doesn't you are pretty much losing 50%.

 

[Konqrr]

OK. Konqrr. I am relatively new to corner pressure that does not involve an ice clone. And just block pressure in general. So I ask you, what are some of the pressure sequences you like to use to open people up? It always seems that once I am in, I can land a b1~4 then once I go to start mixing in 111~4 and 3~4, i get ducked and poked. Also, since meter is so easy to come by, what do you think about sometimes going straight into pressure off the 50/50 setup? Just to keep em on their toes?

Train them to not poke out.

111~4... if they block it standing, then 111~4 again until they crouch block then either use 3~slide and combo back to the same situation if it hits or use f113 and hit confirm to slide if it hits if not you are +2 so d1~slide or 22~4 (9f starter can be poked out of because you are only +2).

After a knockdown in the corner, I like to start with 3~4 (+20). From here you can go straight into 111~4 even if the first jab whiffs because the second jab will connect on frame 17 so you have some room to play with, then you can pressure like above. Because you are +20, you may be able to use f2~4 for (+10) then frame trap them with b1~slide.

After every blocked 111~4, you are guaranteed a throw attempt that they cannot escape, they MUST tech to get out. This is midscreen also.

Mess around with different things, know your frame data. Some characters like Grundy or Catwoman get out of things like f113 as the last kick whiffs so you have to change things up.

 

[16 Bit]

Why wouldn't you just take your free 50/50 after a blocked 3~4 or 111~4 every time? I still don't get it.

 

[Konqrr]

Why wouldn't you just take your free 50/50 after a blocked 3~4 or 111~4 every time? I still don't get it.

This too.

I get poked out of the 50/50 sometimes still after 111~4. 3~4 is guaranteed mixup.

 

[Lord Beef]

Why wouldn't you just take your free 50/50 after a blocked 3~4 or 111~4 every time? I still don't get it.

As In the f3/slide 50/50? Only reason I wouldn't I'd to build more meter/trait if I needed it. Otherwise I suppose I see your point. Unless I'm just really trying to frazzle them with pressure cause if the 50/50 is blocked pressure is over and were back to getting in. Guess it's situational

 

[Lord Beef]

This too.

I get poked out of the 50/50 sometimes still after 111~4. 3~4 is guaranteed mixup.

See I've thought about this too. Be a cool way to see how the are blocking after the standing reset. Use 3~4 then the 50/50 after 112~4? Thoughts?

 

[16 Bit]

The pressure is also over if they escape too and that means you've lost the chance to go for the 50/50 gamble, which has basically no consequence for her anyway. In a lot of MU the slide being blocked is a neutral guessing game or even a guessing game in her favor. So cheap.

 

[RiBBz22]

Yeah, "the pressure is over" if you're wrong but that's the only consequence. In fact in a lot of MU a slide being blocked is more of a neutral guessing game or even a guessing game in HER favor. So they guess right and block low correctly only to be stuck guessing more.

But what is the point of pressure if not to deal damage? Her damage is from the 50/50. In MK this kind of pressure was godlike because they weren't as many defensive options and most characters didn't have ways to open the opponent up like these 50/50's. Cage players wouldn't have been locking people down if he also had a low/overhead 50/50 were both options were safe and lead to full combo.

IMO you don't want to overcomplicate things. Continuous pressure is giving them an chance to escape before you go for the big damage gamble(which isn't even much of a gamble in her case).

I pretty much agree. To be blunt, Frost gives no one ANY reason to block high unless she is in the range that is standing next to you up to a half dash away. Typically, when you are not whiff punishing or getting random offense from icebergs and daggers you are literally trying to get next to your opponent with some sort of frame advantage or by using some sort of setup that allows you to safely throw out your 50/50.

Now your opponent has to become part of a really really crappy guessing game for them, and this is the part of the KF matchup that other players dread the most...so why not use it as soon as you can, putting your opponent in the situation they least want to be in.

 

[Konqrr]

Good points all around.

It just feels so good to demoralize my prey by forcing them to burn a bar to get me off of them. I guess that is the bonus to all of her pressure is to gain clash advantage.

 

[Lord Beef]

GGA 16 Bit

Good points man. See? This is why I love sharing a character with top players finally you especially since you are willing to discuss this stuff with us peons lmao. Thanks for the chat man I will definitely take all this into consideration. I love this damn character, she's so damn cheap. Pretty much embodies play to win IMO

Konqrr

Thanks for the pressure tips. So they only have 1f to escape 3 after 111~4.. That's crazy... Now I see the corner danger, especially since 111 is more or less guaranteed after 3~4 in the corner. Fucked up loop with the threat of mbf3 and slide mixed in. Sheesh dis bitch nasty

 

[G4S KT]

In a lot of MU the slide being blocked is a neutral guessing game or even a guessing game in her favor.

This concept is grossly under appreciated

 

[usedcarsalesmang]

Block slide into down1 slide= salt

 

[RiBBz22]

Block slide into down1 slide= salt

If they get hit by a d1 it is really their problem since they have 10 frames to enter it before her's will come out.

 

[BoP_Edge]

Has anyone else had issues with Solomon Grundy as KF? Any tips would be appreciated

(sorry if someone else asked this already)

Run away, zone with daggers and ice spikes. One he closes in to slide range check him with it occassionally, but dont throw too many cuz he can punish. Block his swamp hands low, you get free spike attempt. Watch out for EX version, you're gonna eat 50%. If he catches on to your zoning patterns, fake an ice spike with a tap of trait and throw daggers (you can mix-up your zoning vs everyone with this, its great for baiting). If you catch him in the air you can can combo into ice spike for 20% or so. Use the threat of interactibles to make him hesitant to approach your zoning. Learn the spacing for walking corpse and stay out of it. That's how I play the matchup anyway.

Been playing with 111~4 in the corner some more. I tested the potential infinite against green arrow online this time but it was slightly laggy. I was getting poked out before the follow-up 111~4, just like you said Konqrr. But I was also getting poked between 3~4 into f113. I also tested the jailing of follow-up 111 on a just frame against Raven again and I couldnt do it once. The first 1 missed everytime. Thought I was going crazy so I picked Doomsday and Lex and Grundy to try it on them. The jailing on DD can be done everytime with practice, EVERYTIME. I had a run for about 2mins where he was totally trapped and not a single 1 whiffed, then I couldn't do it again for a while lol. Same with Lex except it is harder with him. Grundy on the other hand was a dead-end like Raven. It could just be my timing. Idk.. I still feel the final 2 hits of 111 should jail everyone, the math says so! After a 111-4 you get free 19f overhead.. But a 17f mid can be poked? Then I think about how Cyborg was free to this and couldn't poke, and that was a damned fine connection. Something in the math doesn't add up here. Maybe the FD is wrong for the 11 or for the 111~4. I need to know the answer to this!

How is everyone handling Lantern? I got wiped out today. His normals, zoning and footsie are superior to hers and her only way in is slide, which he can punish very easily. I could really use some advice.

 

[RiBBz22]

Run away, zone with daggers and ice spikes. One he closes in to slide range check him with it occassionally, but dont throw too many cuz he can punish. Block his swamp hands low, you get free spike attempt. Watch out for EX version, you're gonna eat 50%. If he catches on to your zoning patterns, fake an ice spike with a tap of trait and throw daggers. If you catch him in the air you can can combo into ice spike for 20% or so. Use the threat of interactibles to make him hesitant to approach your zoning. Learn the spacing for walking corpse and stay out of it. That's how I play the matchup anyway.

Been playing with 111~4 in the corner some more. I tested the potential infinite against green arrow online this time but it was slightly laggy. I was getting poked out before the follow-up 111~4, just like you said Konqrr. But I was also getting poked between 3~4 into f113. I also tested the jailing of follow-up 111 on a just frame against Raven again and I couldnt do it once. The first 1 missed everytime. Thought I was going crazy so I picked Doomsday and Lex and Grundy to try it on them. The jailing on DD can be done everytime with practice, EVERYTIME. I had a run for about 2mins where he was totally trapped and not a single 1 whiffed, then I couldn't do it again for a while lol. Same with Lex except it is harder with him. Grundy on the other hand was a dead-end like Raven. It could just be my timing. Idk.. I still feel the final 2 hits of 111 should jail everyone, the math says so! After a 111-4 you get free 19f overhead.. But a 17f mid can be poked? Then I think about how Cyborg was free to this and couldn't poke, and that was a damned fine connection. Something in the math doesn't add up here. Maybe the FD is wrong for the 11 or for the 111~4. I need to know the answer to this!

How is everyone handling Lantern? I got wiped out today. His normals, zoning and footsie are superior to hers and her only way in is slide, which he can punish very easily. I could really use some advice.

Lantern's best tool in the MU is his overhead air Oa rocket (bf1). He can basically jump over daggers and throw it out to keep KF in check. Both fighters have to be careful of each others lows (GL b1 and KF slide). The MU is never really in KF's favor until you are in F3 range to do the 50-50, and working your way in is going to be a slight chore having to deal with the Oa rockets, b1 footsie bull crap, b3, and lift. It is notable to mention that at full screen the air rocket will not hit you so you are safe from that range and GL will have to try to advance himself in some way in order to put KF at risk, so sometimes you can read that and try to get in that way.

Once you get on him, make sure you stay on him and continue 50-50 pressure and mixing in multi-hitting strings that could potentially break armor on a MB b3 they might use. Sometimes I will mix in other things like neutral jumps when he has the chance to wake up so I can at least get a block string going that I can turn into another 50-50 opportunity.

Also, for any KF I would suggest for them to go into training mode and record 30 seconds worth of GL doing b12 and b13 to the dummy, and then trying to get out of it with KF's parry. You can interrupt both strings after the b1, and mixing in both strings in training mode will give you good practice on the timing.

 

[Wise Fox Spirit]

I've been wondering if Killer Frost is good online since I've only played against one and I currently don't have a offline scene where I live.

 

[RiBBz22]

I've been wondering if Killer Frost is good online since I've only played against one and I currently don't have a offline scene where I live.

I play her online and its not any more annoying to play with her as it is with anyone else online. Same problemzzz. Input delay is really annoying so it pretty much eliminates connecting 2 u3's in the same combo.

 

[BoP_Edge]

Lantern's best tool in the MU is his overhead air Oa rocket (bf1). He can basically jump over daggers and throw it out to keep KF in check. Both fighters have to be careful of each others lows (GL b1 and KF slide). The MU is never really in KF's favor until you are in F3 range to do the 50-50, and working your way in is going to be a slight chore having to deal with the Oa rockets, b1 footsie bull crap, b3, and lift. It is notable to mention that at full screen the air rocket will not hit you so you are safe from that range and GL will have to try to advance himself in some way in order to put KF at risk, so sometimes you can read that and try to get in that way.

Once you get on him, make sure you stay on him and continue 50-50 pressure and mixing in multi-hitting strings that could potentially break armor on a MB b3 they might use. Sometimes I will mix in other things like neutral jumps when he has the chance to wake up so I can at least get a block string going that I can turn into another 50-50 opportunity.

Also, for any KF I would suggest for them to go into training mode and record 30 seconds worth of GL doing b12 and b13 to the dummy, and then trying to get out of it with KF's parry. You can interrupt both strings after the b1, and mixing in both strings in training mode will give you good practice on the timing.

Thanks, I will definitely do that.

 

[BoP_Edge]

Why wouldn't you just take your free 50/50 after a blocked 3~4 or 111~4 every time? I still don't get it.

Guaranteed chip. Something else for them to think about. Way I see it is if they're caught in my corner vortex and I've played the 50/50 a couple of times, they're too busy trying to read your read of their block stance. That's free 3% chip, then go to your 50/50. Eventually you can start getting more greedy, tagging 5% chip, or 7. Then they'll start reading your pressure, trying to poke out, push block or w/e, and when they're doing that they're not playing 50/50 reads. I can see how it really can overcomplicate things but the options and mixups that can result from her frame-trap pressure are just so numerous in my view. I'm determined to make it work, even if I get stuffed alot in the process of working it all out.

Here's a list of all the options I can see off of 111 setup. All lead into vortex on hit and subsequent guessing game on block.

111~slide
111~MBf3
111~4 > B1~slide OR naked slide
111~4 > f3
111~4 > 3~slide
111~4 > 3~MBf3
111~4 > 3~4 > B1~slide OR naked slide
111~4 > 3~4 > f3
111~4 > 3~4 > 3~slide (I don't recommend a second 3 online because the timing for the spacing is more strict)
111~4 > 3~4 > 3~MBf3
111~4 > 3~4 > 3~4 > f113 > d1~slide (once d1 respected you can loop back to 3~whatever instead)
111~4 > 3~4 > 3~4 > f113 > d1~MBf3

This is just a basic list off the top of my head. There are so many options to utilise and I didn't even cover loops and there are more options too if you switch around orders, use f2~ and 22~. The threat of a 50/50 is ALWAYS there. It could come at any time. The threat is what gives you free chip. If you manage to squeeze another 1114 in there it starts all over again.

Getting too greedy or going into it before they're conditioned is what loses the pressure. In a way you really have to know yourself and your opponent before this game can work effectively, in my opinion. Her 50/50 will always be what her game is built around, the trap pressure is a tool that can be used to support it and take your opponents focus away from the 50/50 to open them up more. I love her corner game, she's like a Sub-Cage hybrid :]

 

[Primiera]

The biggest problem with all that is how cheap push-blocking is in IJ. You can't push-block a high/low, but you can push-block a guy trying to get scraps of a % in chip damage. I'm not saying corner frame trapping is a bad choice, but there's a fine line between trying to score a few extra hits and just delaying your 50/50.

 

[Lord Beef]

So outside of the clash adjustment, any other changes to our beloved Ice Queen?