[Discussion] Injustice Tournament Rules?

[Osirun]

This is the ruleset that I will be using, for now, at all tournaments I run:

IJ:GAU
*Best 2/3 Matches.
*Interactables and Transitions set to ON.
*Random stage select at the start, based on what appears in the Character Select screen's background. Loser can choose from three options: 1) Rematch with current stage and character. 2) Return to Character Select for a new random stage to be selected in the background. 3) Return to Character Select for a new character and a new random stage to be selected in the background.

Reasoning
Best 2/3 matches is a community standard that only changes once a game has proven, over time, that expansion to 3/5 is necessary for whatever collection of reasons. Without enough time in the community, IJ should start out like everything else has.

Interactables and Transitions are also too new for a ban to be considered reasonable. Only if they are proven, over time, to cheapen the competitive experience should they be turned off.

This stage select ruleset is the 8 Way Run standard for Soulcalibur V, which is also a game where stages can heavily favor one character over another, or give a character significant advantages that increase his/her tournament viability. Given that stages in Injustice give similar advantages and disadvantages to different characters, I feel that mirroring the 8 Way Run ruleset is appropriate.

I do not feel that the 50/50 tool is as valuable as a completely random stage selection because if the 50/50 tends to favor one player over another, the player on the losing end can make a good case for an unfair situation. This is because the players were allowed a preference, and limited the options to only 2 out of 29 (when taking into account all levels within the stages). If the stage is selected completely at random, then there is less ability to cry foul because neither player had any say in which of the 29 options the game randomly chose. Even though a random select of the 29 options may consistently favor one player over another, the elimination of player preference that influences the game's random choice makes for a more fair situation overall. This method of random stage select is proven in a similar game (SCV) and that is why I will go with it for my IJ events until further notice.

 

[Dizzy]

I agree fully with Osirun. I hope that those rules become the current standard.

 

[NY_Jailhouse]

Yeah we really need a standard for this because at nlbc last night the way we did stages was different for every game I played lol

 

[Osirun]

Thanks GGA Dizzy! I tried to put some real thought into the ruleset that I preferred at this point in time, and am really glad that I remembered SCV's stage selection method. We'll see how other people feel about it.

From what I've seen on Wednesday Night Fights and Next Level Battle Circuit, those players seem to prefer the 50/50, but we end up seeing the same stages over and over. I feel that is limiting experience as well as limiting the chances of finding something broken about the other stages and their interactables. I hope they start going with random stage select!

 

[ApertureBlack]

Interactibles should be an immediate off, they simply break things. Have you seen pig fights? Stupid as hell.

Just have them off and random stage, that way its player vs player and not player vs whoever spawns closest to the nearest throwable.

 

[Osirun]

Interactables being broken will have to be proven via video and/or within a tournament setting. It is going to take more time before that kind of evidence becomes available; it may never be proven at all.

 

[Sunny54]

Hey I want to thank Osirun for providing this rule set! At least up here in the Northwest we are adopting this for our tournaments since I think it's the fairest /and/ most dynamic way to play the game.

This isn't a 2D fighting game with neutral stages. With the interactables this really is a 3D fighting game on a 2D plane. Time to start treating the environments like a 3D fighter would, with a true random select.

 

[Dandy J]

cross-post from the wnf results article:

Having random stage can be even more off-putting, since you will feel even more unfortunate if someone gets the stage they wanted from the random select.

I think if stages become really powerful, like in the case of DS on ferris or teleport characters on pig stages, a ban/pick system might be the way to go. You'll see this in games such as Quake or Counter-Strike, where the map is the whole game. Basically the IJ equivalent would be something like - each player gets to ban one or a couple stages, then each player gets to pick a stage. The first two matches are played on the two picked stages, then some kind of tie breaker for the last stage if the score is 1-1. How that would be chosen, idk. I guess only only truly neutral way would be to turn off everything.

 

[Peccavi]

The issue with random select is that it naturally favors Player 1 over Player 2. 16 stages have their transition in the right, vs 11 stages with their transition in the left. 50/50 pick eliminates this bias.

 

[Dandy J]

Aris' views on stage select: http://www.twitch.tv/avoidingthepuddle/c/2254745

Thoughts? I think it's a perfectly valid argument.

 

[Hitoshura]

I don't agree with interactables but I'm just one person so whatever, lol.

 

[sea_guy]

Aris' views on stage select: http://www.twitch.tv/avoidingthepuddle/c/2254745

Thoughts? I think it's a perfectly valid argument.

It's a silly argument. He claims that people just want to do the same shit over and over, when he just wants to play on the most broken stage for his character over and over. He makes an appeal on the basis of the 50/50s uniqueness, while ignoring that Injustice does something unique with its random stage feature that no other game does, by telling you what the random stage will be before you pick your character. This, along with whether you end up 1p or 2p, could have a sizable impact on what character someone like Chris G picks in a match - he might pick GA on most stages, or maybe he'll play a power character should random select wind up on Fortress. Whether this is ultimately a good thing is up to the TOs to decide, and they could always start character locking players or forcing them to choose between picking a new stage or picking a new character on a loss, but it's definitely something unique to Injustice.

Either way, it doesn't really matter whether or not something's unique, only that the 50/50 strongly favors his character type (zoners), so of course he's going to come up with whatever excuse to try and make that sound desirable. What's funny is that while Deathstroke is fine as he is, and probably in no need of nerfing, a Deathstroke that gets to play on Ferris over 50% of the time is something else. He talks about picking a stage like it's picking your character, when it's more like flipping a coin on whether or not your character's going to get a 7-3 MU instead of a 5-5, because the stages people 'pick' are inevitably as polarizing and advantageous to their character as possible, i.e. Ferris with a gadget zoner.

He's being lazy and refusing to learn the other stages, as if it were something to be proud of, because that's "his" stage. Fuck that.

 

[MorbidAltruism]

It's a silly argument. He claims that people just want to do the same shit over and over, when he just wants to play on the most broken stage for his character over and over. He makes an appeal on the basis of the 50/50s uniqueness, while ignoring that Injustice does something unique with its random stage feature that no other game does, by telling you what the random stage will be before you pick your character. This, along with whether you end up 1p or 2p, could have a sizable impact on what character someone like Chris G picks in a match - he might pick GA on most stages, or maybe he'll play a power character should random select wind up on Fortress. Whether this is ultimately a good thing is up to the TOs to decide, and they could always start character locking players or forcing them to choose between picking a new stage or picking a new character on a loss, but it's definitely something unique to Injustice.

Either way, it doesn't really matter whether or not something's unique, only that the 50/50 strongly favors his character type (zoners), so of course he's going to come up with whatever excuse to try and make that sound desirable. What's funny is that while Deathstroke is fine as he is, and probably in no need of nerfing, a Deathstroke that gets to play on Ferris over 50% of the time is something else. He talks about picking a stage like it's picking your character, when it's more like flipping a coin on whether or not your character's going to get a 7-3 MU instead of a 5-5, because the stages people 'pick' are inevitably as polarizing and advantageous to their character as possible, i.e. Ferris with a gadget zoner.

He's being lazy and refusing to learn the other stages, as if it were something to be proud of, because that's "his" stage. Fuck that.

Good point. I didn't even realize you could tell the stage before you choose a character. That is pretty unique. I think 50 50 is fine though. If I had to pick I think random is more valid. It is the most fair I guess. :16Bit

 

[Dandy J]

Thing is, the game's own system is clearly the 50/50 choice. Whether or not some stages are broken with certain characters is a completely different issue. If that's the case, the 50/50 coin flip isn't the culprit, it's the actual balance of the stages and interactables. For example in mvc2, the community could have instituted a rule set to allow only 1 top tier character on a team or something, to alleviate the game's balance problems, but they didn't. The game became what it was and everyone enjoyed it for what it was. If you want to make artificial rules for stage select, you can make ones for the rest of the game, too. For example, you could make a 'no bad match-up rule', where if someone mains a character that your main dominates, then you have to pick a different character! See, it's much more fair that way.

Fairness really has nothing to do with this. If you wanted the game to be as fair as possible, you'd turn both transitions and interactables off (since none are symmetrical), and only allow mirror matches. THAT'S the most fair system.

 

[ApertureBlack]

Thing is, the game's own system is clearly the 50/50 choice. Whether or not some stages are broken with certain characters is a completely different issue. If that's the case, the 50/50 coin flip isn't the culprit, it's the actual balance of the stages and interactables. For example in mvc2, the community could have instituted a rule set to allow only 1 top tier character on a team or something, to alleviate the game's balance problems, but they didn't. The game became what it was and everyone enjoyed it for what it was. If you want to make artificial rules for stage select, you can make ones for the rest of the game, too. For example, you could make a 'no bad match-up rule', where if someone mains a character that your main dominates, then you have to pick a different character! See, it's much more fair that way.

Fairness really has nothing to do with this.

I honestly think the first stage should be one without anything/interactables and the person who wins the coin flip gets to pick his character second. Then after that is done, the loser picks his character first but also gets to choose a stage with/without interactables. That way the loser would always get his fix of his characters stage and the initial stage wouldn't heavily favor anyone in the first match.

 

[Ermaculate_Slim]

Here is my suggestion

Matches 3/5 (The matches go by so fast kinda like marvel.I think 3/5 wouldn't be pushing it and will allow enough time for the player to learn or adjust to a certain MU.)

Stage Interactables Turned off(I know a lot of people will disagree with this but ever since I found out they were unblockable I just couldn't support em. Plus interactables do way too much damage.Win a match with your own skills not by some crutch you use when you cant think of anything else to do cause you are getting outplayed)

Stage Selection should be done with the 50/50 coin flip and after,the loser can change stage that seems fair to me.

 

[Stchamps]

Thing is, the game's own system is clearly the 50/50 choice. Whether or not some stages are broken with certain characters is a completely different issue. If that's the case, the 50/50 coin flip isn't the culprit, it's the actual balance of the stages and interactables. For example in mvc2, the community could have instituted a rule set to allow only 1 top tier character on a team or something, to alleviate the game's balance problems, but they didn't. The game became what it was and everyone enjoyed it for what it was. If you want to make artificial rules for stage select, you can make ones for the rest of the game, too. For example, you could make a 'no bad match-up rule', where if someone mains a character that your main dominates, then you have to pick a different character! See, it's much more fair that way.

Fairness really has nothing to do with this. If you wanted the game to be as fair as possible, you'd turn both transitions and interactables off (since none are symmetrical), and only allow mirror matches. THAT'S the most fair system.

It totally makes sense to compare a new game to a 15 year old game. /sarcasm

 

[Stchamps]

Interactables being broken will have to be proven via video and/or within a tournament setting. It is going to take more time before that kind of evidence becomes available; it may never be proven at all.

The very first tournament had a fight with Tom Brady and Reo where Reo owned Tom Brady with pigs. As I watched it any sense of seriousness I felt for this game dissipated.

 

[Dizzy]

I didn't get a chance to listen to the WUSRK announcement, but I heard that Osirun's rules will be the ones used at EVO.

I really feel like the 50/50 thing was just added to let people who play online have a fair shot as P2. I don't see the point of using it at offline events except for the hell of it.

 

[Osirun]

Arkham Asylum (Mess Hall) is where the dreaded pig is to be found. I really feel that there is no good reason to ban this stage at this time. Fight for positioning away from the pig and punish your opponent when they try to use it. Bait them into using it. I think it is a reasonable expectation that players should learn to deal with the environment rather than ban the stage altogether.

That said, I saw just recently on the TYM front page that ECTV will be banning Ferris Aircraft due to a glitch that intrudes on the viewing area of the match. I think that is reasonable as long as the glitch occurs in at least 20% of matches. However, Tom Brady said,

This bug happens on several stages. Also, what about the bug w/the motorcycle on Wayne Manner? should we ban that too?

This is RIDICULOUS... glad these "experts" get to come in and make up custom rules for us...

Tom, would you help me understand your statement a bit more? I think what you mean is that there is currently no good reason to ban any stages despite the presence of these glitches. Am I correct?

Also, would you be willing to elaborate more on a ruleset that you would find suitable for IJ? Do you stand by your OP in this thread that states:

1. 2/3 matches
2. Interactables and Transitions ON
3. Random stage for the first game. If the loser wants a new stage, they have the option for another random stage, or to 50/50 the stage select. Random stage means the stage AND stage level that is pre-selected by the game at the character select screen.

Or has your opinion changed since that time?

Now that IJ is slated for EVO, and an organizer such as Keits said on WakeupSRK that he was letting the community take the lead, it is important for the community to speak with a fairly unified voice on the matter. I am of course open to critique of my own ruleset posted above. The discussion is what is most valuable, and the final conclusion for a ruleset to use at least through EVO2k13 should be our goal as a community.

STORMS Tim Static Sabin REO would you guys also weigh in on this discussion if you have time? As senior mods and highly respected players all of your input would be valuable and lend respectability to any community-driven ruleset that would come out of this thread.

The big questions to answer are:

1) Does any stage need to be banned at the moment?
2) What should the stage select method be?

 

[Tom Brady]

1. There is no reason to ban any stage
2. Stage select rules should be 1st game is random stage. Loser gets to rematch on the current stage or opt to 50/50 the stage select.

 

[REO]

1. There is no reason to ban any stage
2. Stage select rules should be 1st game is random stage. Loser gets to rematch on the current stage or opt to 50/50 the stage select.

I agree with pretty much this.

 

[STORMS]

Arkham Asylum (Mess Hall) is where the dreaded pig is to be found. I really feel that there is no good reason to ban this stage at this time. Fight for positioning away from the pig and punish your opponent when they try to use it. Bait them into using it. I think it is a reasonable expectation that players should learn to deal with the environment rather than ban the stage altogether.

That said, I saw just recently on the TYM front page that ECTV will be banning Ferris Aircraft due to a glitch that intrudes on the viewing area of the match. I think that is reasonable as long as the glitch occurs in at least 20% of matches. However, Tom Brady said,



Tom, would you help me understand your statement a bit more? I think what you mean is that there is currently no good reason to ban any stages despite the presence of these glitches. Am I correct?

Also, would you be willing to elaborate more on a ruleset that you would find suitable for IJ? Do you stand by your OP in this thread that states:



Or has your opinion changed since that time?

Now that IJ is slated for EVO, and an organizer such as Keits said on WakeupSRK that he was letting the community take the lead, it is important for the community to speak with a fairly unified voice on the matter. I am of course open to critique of my own ruleset posted above. The discussion is what is most valuable, and the final conclusion for a ruleset to use at least through EVO2k13 should be our goal as a community.

STORMS Tim Static Sabin REO would you guys also weigh in on this discussion if you have time? As senior mods and highly respected players all of your input would be valuable and lend respectability to any community-driven ruleset that would come out of this thread.

The big questions to answer are:

1) Does any stage need to be banned at the moment?
2) What should the stage select method be?

I would personally go by the opinions of Tom Brady REO Pig Of The Hut Sabin on this matter. I don't know enough about this glitch to know how much it really warrants a ban. I also didn't know that this happens on several stages? Regardless, perhaps colt can also give some feedback on these issues as well.

In short, I stand behind the respectable decision that the above men would have on the matter.

PS - ECTV banning that stage was unexpected in my opinion, nevertheless, it is what it is now.

 

[Tim Static]

Osirun I like the rules you've made, except I prefer 3/5 but 4/7 for GF's.

I'll let some others like Sabin Tom Brady REO etc talk before I say much else about the stages. I just haven't been able to put the amount of play into the game yet for me to have an opinion that's educated enough to be considers viable.

Also if other stages have glitches that occur that will affect gameplay, then they need fixed asap. We shouldn't have to ban stages for silly stuff like what is causing the air field to be banned at ECT5.

And people who don't like or think interactables should be banned need to either stop playing IGAU or go back to whatever other game they play. This is IGAU, not the other game you play.

 

[Osirun]

Thanks for posting up, Tom Brady. I appreciate it. Sorry to blow up your alerts tab with my posts, but I have another question.

Why do you think that the 50/50 is an appropriate tool for the loser of the first match to use if they so choose? Why is that the superior option compared to simply random stage select for everything except a straight rematch?

I'm assuming that your intention is also for the winner of the first match to be able to choose whatever stage he prefers as part of that 50/50? The winner won't be locked into choosing any particular stage, correct?

Tim Static, thanks for posting as well. I'm also leaning heavily toward 3/5 and it will probably be what I choose for my upcoming Brutality - May 2013 event. The game is very fast when people know what they're doing.

Thanks for posting, STORMS.