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[Discussion] Injustice Tournament Rules?

Sabin

Elder God
I agree with Tom Brady and the testers on all rulesets, I think its 100% fair to have random select stage 1st match then loser pick stage. the only thing people have to worry about is, what if people have incorrect button config (which can and will happen,) how will you handle stage select then? because it selects a different stage when you do that.

also as a player i would love 3/5 to be the standard, but i understand 2/3 considering tight tourney schedules. part of the reason why inju got added so quick is b/c the matches end fast, so I hope TO's can find the scheduling to make 3/5 a standard in the future
 

colt

Premium Supporter
Premium Supporter
NetherRealm Studios
thats why imo no button checks, if there is something wrong with your buttons you can forfeit the match or play it out and fix your buttons on player select the next time.

if players always go the controller config the first match then there is no issue. your buttons can be messed up is when you set them wrong or the other player defaults or saves over the same preset you are using (PS3 only). I've all the casual and tournaments streams and all the button issues were related to that or Reo resets his opponents buttons on purpose every chance he got.
 

Uotan

Unban Joker
You choose, I choose. 50/50, if the stage is random, the odds of landing on power friendly stages increases drastically, (two arkhams, rooftop Gotham, Myscira, insergency, metropolis (2/3 levels), fortress of solitude & watchtower, they are all stages a non power character wants to avoid, with a special mention to Atlantis (no corner escape, two interactables), this gives you less chance than 50/50 to level it out.
You named 10 stages that arguably favor power characters (some of them don't) out of... 29. What? Where's the imbalance here? You're also ignoring the degree to which a stage favors one character type. Hall of Justice, for example, may slightly favor gadget characters, but not nearly to the extent that Ferris does. If you 50/50, you're flipping a coin on one of two players getting their best, most favorable possible stage, instead of rolling the 29-sided dice and ending up with a stage that, while it may favor one player, will 93% of the time favor them considerably less than the inevitable Atlantis or Ferris picks would have.

Like, Fortress favors power characters sort of, because the MB ship combo is a thing, but it's otherwise devoid of interactables, and it doesn't affect matchup numbers nearly to the extent that MB Atlantis walls do.
 

Pig Of The Hut

Day 0 Phenomenal Dr. Fate and Darkseid player
IMO
no button checks - know your hardware before a tournament and/or use a casual station to test.
first game both players confirm/set your buttons in player select the first time up.
first match used the defaulted random stage select.
after that the loser can keep the same character and pick a new stage to use OR pick a different character and choose a new stage to 50/50 with the winner.
I would recommend 3/5 for all matches to allow for players to download one another.

As far as the camera bugs, those aren't on my current build. So if they aren't fixed in with Lobo they should be with the next one.
Osirun
STORMS
Tom Brady
Sabin

I agree whole-heartedly w colt
 

Rip Torn

ALL I HAVE IS THE GREEN.
thats why imo no button checks, if there is something wrong with your buttons you can forfeit the match or play it out and fix your buttons on player select the next time.

if players always go the controller config the first match then there is no issue. your buttons can be messed up is when you set them wrong or the other player defaults or saves over the same preset you are using (PS3 only). I've all the casual and tournaments streams and all the button issues were related to that or Reo resets his opponents buttons on purpose every chance he got.
There's a bug on PS3 where if you hit default it resets ALL the presets to default. Even the saved ones. Did you fix that in the Lobo patch?
 
FrothyOmen Would you be willing to describe your ideal ruleset? Please and thank you : )
Sure I could, but it would certainly not be viable to use in any sort of tournament play. Basically, I like Starcraft 2's system in which there is a map pool and players are given one or two "vetos", so they can skip maps they don't want to play (generally ones that benefit their opponent the most). While it works for an organized, slow-paced game that takes anywhere from 10-50 minutes to complete (usually), it doesn't really work for fighting games where a set of 2/3 or 3/5 can happen in under 5 minutes. Also there's not exactly enough staff to go around worrying about all of that.

So, nah, basically what I would like to see for the Injustice scene is neither viable nor practical. I could explain more but I'm on my phone and don't really feel like it at the moment lol
 

Osirun

www.powerupfighters.org
After reading through the contents of this thread up to now, I have to say that I am still a proponent of random stage select for all matches. The one change I do think is appropriate for the ruleset I proposed is an increase from 2/3 to Best 3/5 Matches in a Set. I would like to state for clarity that I do not think my opinion is beyond reproach and welcome critique and disagreement.

My reasoning on the stage select matter extends from what I feel are the dual goals of a tournament: to accurately determine the best player and also to accurately determine the dominant strategy. Instead of posting a huge wall of text for all to see, I'll put everything into a spoiler so interested parties can read it without visually cluttering the thread.

Over time, the statistical results of multiple events should lead to averages for matchup results. Those averages should reveal what strategies are dominant and what players are dominant. A perfect tournament system would replicate this data set every time in order to reinforce theoretical tier lists or see how, over time, things are changing. Unfortunately, this type of tournament system is too lengthy to be practical, as will be explained below.

With 25 characters (as of now) there are 25 potential matchups per character when including the mirror matchup. So we have 625 different matchups, but in Injustice the stages are important as well, so the actual number of different matchups by a multiple of the number of unique levels, which is 25 (Joker's Asylum and Wayne Manor Night are functional duplicates of Arkham Asylum and Wayne Manor Day, so do not count as unique). So for all 625 character matchups there are 25 different levels that those character matchups can be played on, resulting in 15,625 matchups in the game's statistical layout. To determine the dominant player, a round robin would have to occur where every player plays every matchup against every other player; it would just take too long.

The math is obvious but merits inclusion here because the goal of practical, time limited tournaments should be representing, as accurately as possible, the data spread of those 15,625 matchups. This data spread will be referred to as the perfect matchup data spread.

Over time, random stage select on all matches will more accurately represent that data spread than using the 50/50 or direct counterpicking of the stage by the loser. Both of those options limit the representative data sample from a single tournament. Player choice will naturally impose arbitrary restrictions on what stages are potentially included in the representative sample.

The argument could be made, however, that if stage select is randomized, then it would also be more accurate to impose random character select to better reflect the perfect matchup data spread. I agree, but the inability to do this is a product of community norms. Players would not accept the validity of random character select, but random select for stage violates no norms. We would get tournament results closer to the perfect matchup data spread.

In regards to the argument that not using the 50/50 is removing a game feature for no reason, I would say the reason I laid out above is good enough. Also, by using the 50/50 you would be forgoing another game feature: the normal random select. I argue that using random select on its own is a more accurate method for achieving a representative sample of the perfect matchup data spread.

In regards to the argument that stages are akin to characters and thus Deathstroke - Ferris Aircraft should be considered a single entity, I feel it overlooks the fact that stages cannot be pitted against each other in a matchup. You cannot play your Deathstroke - Ferris Aircraft against your friend's Bane - Fortress of Solitude. You can each choose a character but must share one stage. Therefore I do not feel that stages in Injustice are akin to characters. The two are indeed separable from one another.

Consider, hypothetically, that Deathstroke is statistically proven to be the dominant character on Ferris Aircraft. He is thus dominant in 24 matchups out of the 15,625 possible; one for each character matchup, excluding the mirror, on the Ferris Aircraft stage. Just because Deathstroke is dominant on Ferris Aircraft does not mean that in the perfect matchup data spread Deathstroke will always be the dominant character. This further demonstrates that stage and character are, and should be, separate considerations.

And that's all from me. Thanks for reading and again I do not claim to have perfect logical reasoning. I'm only doing the best I can and am completely open to critique as long as there is some attempt at providing evidence, logical or experimental. I will continue to advocate for random stage select in all matches but also pledge to support the eventual community standard if it happens to differ from my opinion.[\spoiler]
 
I feel all matches should be random. I know 16 bit isnt making any excuses for his loss in the losers bracket, but what I saw this past weekend on the UFGT stream was a power character knowing theres a distinct advantage against killer frost on rooftop, and that player winning the 50/50 both times. Had we lived in an alternate universe where the outcome of 50/50's were different, I think we would have seen a different match.

So my opinion is random stage every time.