On Balance and Patches

[Big Pampering]

Just curious though who was unrightfully nerfed or buffed in MK9? because I am really curious about everyones opinion on this, because even without the nerfs most characters would still get raped by kenshi and kabal. we obviously have subzero and raiden who shouldnt have received the nerf bat.

Edit: I am pretty dissapointed in this injustice game, first of all the walkspeed and no anti airs are a turnoff for me. the wakeup attacks are also shitty, what I liked about mk9 was that it was actually a guessing game on knockdown and not a chance for the other guy to start jumping on you, its okay to have 50/50's on crossup but they shouldve given the option to do a wakeup attack also. half the frame data is wrong which is another huge downer.

I understand that a lot of the mechanic may just need time to get used to but I will always prefer good walking speed and anti airs over what they have in injustice.

 

[webreg]

WoundCowboy
No it isn't. They have implemented a way to adjust parameters (animation speed, link data, gravity modifiers, recovery, hitstun, ...) in the game at will without the need for Sony/Microsoft approval, packaging and testing. They are incredibly proud of it and have mentioned it at every opportunity.

 

[Crimson Panther]

I can only think of one, possibly two characters that were badly nerfed in MK9: Sub Zero and Kano. And even without the nerfs, they still weren't amazing. People are acting like half the cast was unfairly downgraded.

Yeah they are acting like that which really is an overaction. Subzero may not have been amazing, but he was complete shit afterwards. Same as Kano. And the fact that apparently they tried to fix Cyrax's reset but ended up making it possible to do more resets including the one they said they were going to fix can make people pessimistic on their ability to fix anything.

But I do agree with you. That's just why everyone is losing their heads about it.

 

[Slips]

Seven different versions of SF2 over the span of years, not three weeks.

The same is true for Tekken 5.0 and Tekken 5: DR and Tekken 6.0 and Tekken 6:BR, etc.

These different versions were not released over night. Change is sometimes very good if you base changes on thousands of hours of gameplay, which is what was done with SF and Tekken.

Capcom made 7 different versions of sf2 over the span of years because there wasn't a thing invented called patching yet. It had nothing to do with the game being 'fine' for that long.

Namco has the luxury of releasing their beta's in arcades for thousands of players to test before it ever comes onto US soil. And to be fair, Tekken 5.0 WAS broken. Steve had an infinite. Nina's uf+1 was so OP the move was completely taken out. Heihachi could do 40% off of a jab.

These were things found within a month or 2. People kept playing cause they knew it would be fixed.

Same with T6. Bob was unquestionably broken from the get go. And a lot players in Japan actually did quit because of it even after he was toned down. (That and the game was just boring)

I hardly consider Tekken 5.0 and Tekken 6.0 a good argument for not patching things.

 

[cR WoundCowboy]

WoundCowboy
No it isn't. They have implemented a way to adjust parameters in the game at will without the need for Sony/Microsoft approval, packaging and testing. They are incredibly proud of it and have mentioned it at every opportunity.

Even with the improvements, the hotfixes have limits. Some things HAVE to be patched. I am pretty sure that the upcoming update is a patch and not a hotfix.

 

[RWDY Nori]

I can only think of one, possibly two characters that were badly nerfed in MK9: Sub Zero and Kano. And even without the nerfs, they still weren't amazing. People are acting like half the cast was unfairly downgraded.

There was zero reason to rape JC the way they did

 

[Datsumsharks]

Completely agree.

Personally I like the idea of just annual patches, which is something they've sorta picked up with SSF4. Yeah, you're going to always have top characters because of people getting buffs and others get nerfs, but you let the community grow and learn and figure it out. If you've got one super over powered character you just sit and learn how your character plays that match. There's match ups in classic fighting games that start as 7/3 and then 2 years later is 4/6 because people learn their weaknesses and made up for it.

How can you let a meta-game grow when you change a game after a month?

 

[Under_The_Mayo]

I support patches. MK9 was patched repeatedly and look how Cyrax and Kabal turned out. Yes, I know, and Kenshi.

In all seriousness, i do support patching on some level. too early for big nerfs and buffs though. i like making batmans trait only at 3 bats though.

 

[RWDY Nori]

How can you let a meta-game grow when you change a game after a month?

For the 13 year olds at home who can't beat Superman cause they block w/their face

 

[OutlawNightmare]

There was zero reason to rape JC the way they did

Idk. I played sektor. Never really buffed. Never really nerfed. Course bug fixes. And the global combo scaling nerf. Other than that i don't remember him being touched much.

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk 2

 

[cR WoundCowboy]

There was zero reason to rape JC the way they did

How was he "raped"? Because he can't F32 nutpunch anymore? Cage would be CRAZY in today's metagame if he could still hit confirm that string, in addition to the double dash. In either case, it was a glitch that they hadn't intended to be there. Again, not a balancing change.

 

[RWDY Nori]

Idk. I played sektor. Never really buffed. Never really nerfed. Course bug fixes. And the global combo scaling nerf. Other than that i don't remember him being touched much.

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk 2

Ok. I played JC. He was raped like he dropped the soap in prison for no reason. I didn't mention anything about Sektor so I'm not sure I understand your reply

 

[Ermaculate_Slim]

Completely agree.

Personally I like the idea of just annual patches, which is something they've sorta picked up with SSF4. Yeah, you're going to always have top characters because of people getting buffs and others get nerfs, but you let the community grow and learn and figure it out. If you've got one super over powered character you just sit and learn how your character plays that match. There's match ups in classic fighting games that start as 7/3 and then 2 years later is 4/6 because people learn their weaknesses and made up for it.

How can you let a meta-game grow when you change a game after a month?

I don't even think NRS cares what the tournament players think at this point. They are like well thanks for testing the game and writing the strategy guide now GTFO!!.We gotz to makez sure dem casuals buy dem DLCz.

 

[Lumpymoomilk]

I think what most people are afraid of is a patch for the worse then they abandon the game MK9 style to move onto something else. (not saying the last MK9 patch was bad, just that nothing else happened after a long time and some things certainly could have been adjusted) Even when the game was still played regularly by a good number of people just before injustice came out but we didn't get a patch since what, fall 2011?

 

[Dizzy]

Just curious though who was unrightfully nerfed or buffed in MK9? because I am really curious about everyones opinion on this, because even without the nerfs most characters would still get raped by kenshi and kabal. we obviously have subzero and raiden who shouldnt have received the nerf bat.

Whats really ironic is Kano is poster-child for why buffing causes community backlash.

Vanilla Kano: F3 was not Low, Upball was a ballstate punish (~-30), No armor

Patched Kano #1: F3 became low, Upball now -7, Added armor to straight ball

Patched Kano #2: Upball now -13, 8f instead of 6f

Everyone say Kano was "overly nerfed" yet he definitely better off than he was in vanilla. It makes no sense. Obviously he shouldn't have had a -7 upball ever, and it was fixed to -13 which it even said in the official patch notes it was intended to be "similar to Johnny Cage's flipkick on block" which is -12 on block.

If the was not touched he would have not had any low combo starter, no armor, and his Upball would be absolute death on block.

 

[Big Pampering]

Whats really ironic is Kano is poster-child for why buffing causes community backlash.

Vanilla Kano: F3 was not Low, Upball was a ballstate punish (~-30), No armor

Patched Kano #1: F3 became low, Upball now -7, Added armor to straight ball

Patched Kano #2: Upball now -13, 8f instead of 6f

Everyone say Kano was "overly nerfed" yet he definitely better off than he was in vanilla. It makes no sense. Obviously he shouldn't have had a -7 upball ever, and it was fixed to -13 which it even said in the official patch notes it was intended to be "similar to Johnny Cage's flipkick on block" which is -12 on block.

If the was not touched he would have not had any low combo starter, no armor, and his Upball would be absolute death on block.

yeah what I am wondering is, were there really that many changes aside from the obvious damage resets(kunglao, kitana) and block infinites and cyrax traps? the only character I can think of that has had drastic changes is kung lao. most of the things in mk9 changed due to giving everyone armor.

what people also need to realise that its not kano or deathstroke that was or is broken, but people are actually bitching about that kind of playstyle. no one likes to play against or lose against that kind of playstyle, so i think they just shouldnt have designed a character like that. there are a lot of ways to design zoning characters and a kano-like playstyle is just asking for trouble imo.

 

[Dandy J]

The game has already been patched dozens of times, the only difference now is that you've played it. This one's no different. Personally I would prefer playing the unpatched version, where Superman's breath was +14. Or at least pre-hotfix, where it's +6. This +1 crap is for the birds. Nerf. Buff. Adapt to that shit!

 

[AZ MotherBrain]

you sir, deserve a bible thump.

 

[Soul Bound X]

Ok. I played JC. He was raped like he dropped the soap in prison for no reason. I didn't mention anything about Sektor so I'm not sure I understand your reply

jc was not raped lol. his only losing mu's are kabal and kenshi. he didn't even need f32 nut punch.

 

[NooBooN]

Fuck that green arrows default arrow needs to be buffed to 2 or 3 percent

 

[Fr0zenKold]

Fuck that green arrows default arrow needs to be buffed to 2 or 3 percent

Why? so u can sit across the stage like every other green arrow and spam them to win? Green Arrow is about as bad as Deathstroke though ive been seeing more and more "in your face" Deathstrokes. I havent once seen an in your face Arrow.

 

[Ermaculate_Slim]

Why? so u can sit across the stage like every other green arrow and spam them to win? Green Arrow is about as bad as Deathstroke though ive been seeing more and more "in your face" Deathstrokes. I havent once seen an in your face Arrow.

You must not of seen Chris G's Green Arrow yet

 

[dragula96]

Green Arrow needs a nerf: his useless arrow needs to be taken out of the game, that thing sucks and when it comes out when your trying to down 1, it gets you full comboed .

 

[DanCock]

Whats really ironic is Kano is poster-child for why buffing causes community backlash.

Vanilla Kano: F3 was not Low, Upball was a ballstate punish (~-30), No armor

Patched Kano #1: F3 became low, Upball now -7, Added armor to straight ball

Patched Kano #2: Upball now -13, 8f instead of 6f

Everyone say Kano was "overly nerfed" yet he definitely better off than he was in vanilla. It makes no sense. Obviously he shouldn't have had a -7 upball ever, and it was fixed to -13 which it even said in the official patch notes it was intended to be "similar to Johnny Cage's flipkick on block" which is -12 on block.

If the was not touched he would have not had any low combo starter, no armor, and his Upball would be absolute death on block.

His fireball speed was reduced a bunch. It ruined his zoning. He was very very good. They should have left him alone.


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[Dandy J]

Was talking to funkdoc about this the other day, his upball startup was also made like 2f slower at some point as well.