Match-up Discussion Flash Matchup Discussion

[StoneyRivers]

how do you guys deal with grundy? I feel like I can't do shit. If I stay out of melee range and wait for an opening, I just get swamp handsed and if I go in on him, he can just walking corpse and royally fuck me with the armor, not to mention most of his bnbs let him go into pain chain which is a free meterless and effortless 30% combo on me.

 

[LEGEND]

how do you guys deal with grundy? I feel like I can't do shit. If I stay out of melee range and wait for an opening, I just get swamp handsed and if I go in on him, he can just walking corpse and royally fuck me with the armor, not to mention most of his bnbs let him go into pain chain which is a free meterless and effortless 30% combo on me.

i'm not sure what to do in this MU atm as well,
if you can make Swamp hands wiff you can get a Lightning charge but Grundy has such good counters to your knockdown pressure that its really just rolling the dice on whatever you do. I've just been going for Ji2 or a sonic pound on hard knockdowns since any grounded offense will be eaten alive be his armor

i've found B3 to be a really solid tool though. If you MB it when you see Grundy's Walking Grab coming at you it will punish any cancel follow-ups and will catch him if he just let it go. Also if you find yourself hitting grundy but his armor is active and you think it will beat you out before you get enough hits in then you can cancel your string into Flying uppercut to get out of there

anything that leaves the ground will generally be good for countering the Walking Grab

i'll post more later

 

[NeckolasBone]

Im really hitting brick walls with lantern and adam,raven eats flash up as well,but to me shes just lantern with a vagina.Its highly depressing because i have no problems shaking everything except adams clouds,and lightning,and that includes all interactables.The lifts get me good,and i cant punish them on block.Otherwise,flash fares more than well against all others in my opinion.

 

[LEGEND]

Im really hitting brick walls with lantern and adam,raven eats flash up as well,but to me shes just lantern with a vagina.Its highly depressing because i have no problems shaking everything except adams clouds,and lightning,and that includes all interactables.The lifts get me good,and i cant punish them on block.Otherwise,flash fares more than well against all others in my opinion.

GL is a bit of an annoyance but i don't think its that bad, his minigun is the main thing i have a problem dealing with consistently.
-Pressuring him on knockdown it a 50/50 of if hes going to lift or not
-his bullet can be ducked easily and you can get a dash in or lightning charge depending on distance
-Air bullet can be punished on block by Lightning charge if he shot it high enough in the air
-His B1 low string can be backdashed out of after the first hit, once you establish that, GL players will have to cancel it into things like mingun or the bullet
-Time Loop is going to be difficult to use outside of combos and wiff punishes cause of lantern's Lift, you can bait the lift while in time loop but i'm not sure if its worth the risks.
-Playing footsies is tough since you can't wiff anything at all with getting comboed and his B1 matches you in range. You really just have to make a good read to get in
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Raven i find super easy to deal with
-On a hard knockdown she has to eat your 50/50 game, None of here wake-ups have full invincibility so all you have to do is time your attacks right
-Her Soul Crush (i think its called) is punishable by Lightning charge from all but Max range, which grants you the hard knockdown you need for your 50/50
-her other projectiles shouldn't be a problem at all, duck them and move on

Thats pretty much it, there isn't much she can do that you can't easily punish. You basically get 50/50s for free all day
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I don't know what think about Black Adam. i thought this MU was fine until i realized that Divekick can't actually be punished on reaction. Its damn near impossible to keep track of how high up you blocked it or if he MB it or not, and the risk reward is just retarded here, you're risking 50+% of your life on a 7% punish that doesn't even grant you advantage on knockdown

-since you have no 6 Frame poke Adam has the advantage every time you are at neutral up close, he gets free D1-Trait or D1-Shock every time

-Flash has zero air control vs Adam

-Adam has no problem punishing max distance sweeps or lightning charges with full combos

-He has a great wake-up in Lightning Cage (fully invincible, Safe on block, can be MB for full combo) which takes away most of your usual advantage from a hard knockdown

-And his normals match yours in range and speed, as well as him having better walk and dash speed

 

[Red Reaper]

-his bullet can be ducked easily and you can get a dash in or lightning charge depending on distance
-Air bullet can be punished on block by Lightning charge if he shot it high enough in the air

When you said bullet I thought you meant the bullets from the minigun seeing as BF1 is a missile.

That would've been better if it really was the minigun. Minigun, B1 and Lift are the problems in this match up. B1~Minigun, too good against Flash.

 

[LEGEND]

When you said bullet I thought you meant the bullets from the minigun seeing as BF1 is a missile.

That would've been better if it really was the minigun. Minigun, B1 and Lift are the problems in this match up. B1~Minigun, too good against Flash.

its more like an artillery shell. But the game calls it Oa's Rocket

And actually you can interrupt all follow ups to B1 except for Lift

 

[Red Reaper]

its more like an artillery shell. But the game calls it Oa's Rocket

And actually you can interrupt all follow ups to B1 except for Lift

Yeah. I remember it was kalled a rocket or missile.

I was thinking that but didn't get to testing it. Good to know. So B1~Minigun is D1 interruptable? Kuz I know B1 3 is not, though you kan back dash out of it like you've said. I tested 223~Minigun and was unable to interrupt that.

 

[NeckolasBone]

GL is a bit of an annoyance but i don't think its that bad, his minigun is the main thing i have a problem dealing with consistently.
-Pressuring him on knockdown it a 50/50 of if hes going to lift or not
-his bullet can be ducked easily and you can get a dash in or lightning charge depending on distance
-Air bullet can be punished on block by Lightning charge if he shot it high enough in the air
-His B1 low string can be backdashed out of after the first hit, once you establish that, GL players will have to cancel it into things like mingun or the bullet
-Time Loop is going to be difficult to use outside of combos and wiff punishes cause of lantern's Lift, you can bait the lift while in time loop but i'm not sure if its worth the risks.
-Playing footsies is tough since you can't wiff anything at all with getting comboed and his B1 matches you in range. You really just have to make a good read to get in
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Raven i find super easy to deal with
-On a hard knockdown she has to eat your 50/50 game, None of here wake-ups have full invincibility so all you have to do is time your attacks right
-Her Soul Crush (i think its called) is punishable by Lightning charge from all but Max range, which grants you the hard knockdown you need for your 50/50
-her other projectiles shouldn't be a problem at all, duck them and move on

Thats pretty much it, there isn't much she can do that you can't easily punish. You basically get 50/50s for free all day
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I don't know what think about Black Adam. i thought this MU was fine until i realized that Divekick can't actually be punished on reaction. Its damn near impossible to keep track of how high up you blocked it or if he MB it or not, and the risk reward is just retarded here, you're risking 50+% of your life on a 7% punish that doesn't even grant you advantage on knockdown

-since you have no 6 Frame poke Adam has the advantage every time you are at neutral up close, he gets free D1-Trait or D1-Shock every time

-Flash has zero air control vs Adam

-Adam has no problem punishing max distance sweeps or lightning charges with full combos

-He has a great wake-up in Lightning Cage (fully invincible, Safe on block, can be MB for full combo) which takes away most of your usual advantage from a hard knockdown

-And his normals match yours in range and speed, as well as him having better walk and dash speed

Thank you the highly detailed reply man,Raven isnt an issue for me anymore.I dont know why i feared her on wakeup before.GL has been way easier since i quit trying to 50/50 him so much.Black Adam is really just too good for Flash,Its too hard in too many ways.I cant space out a f21 or AA the guy to save my life.How do you feel about Aquaman?

 

[LEGEND]

Thank you the highly detailed reply man,Raven isnt an issue for me anymore.I dont know why i feared her on wakeup before.GL has been way easier since i quit trying to 50/50 him so much.Black Adam is really just too good for Flash,Its too hard in too many ways.I cant space out a f21 or AA the guy to save my life.How do you feel about Aquaman?

Haven't really fought a good aquaman with flash. i always end up playing Green arrow somehow. Only things i really know about that MU are punishes and stuff i found in the lab. I guess listing them won't hurt

-His overheads all appear to be blockable on reaction and/or fuzzy guardable
-His trident throw and Ground trident (thing that tracks) are both punishable by lightning charge
-the multi stab move is punishable by Flying Uppercut, Same with the low scoop i believe
-He can trait to escape MB lightning kick and punish you for it so going for MB sonic pound combo's or straight lightning to continue pressure is much safer
-even from playing a pretty scrubby friend of mine in this MU i can tell using Time Loop outside of punishes won't be a good idea, the speed and range of Aquaman's moves can hit you out of it easily
-he is pretty punishable on wiff, free lightning charge in most cases
-Not sure of his wake-ups, i don't think he has an option for countering Jump ins or neutral jumps when knocked down. could be wrong

Sorry i don't know the names of any of his specials lol, he's like the only character i have spent zero time playing as

 

[ecksyz]

Do you guys have any advice on the Superman match up?

I played in a local tournament yesterday and came in second, first place was a good friend of mine who plays Superman. I feel like some of the problem was the set up we were playing on (I was dropping random things all day for no reason, stuff like d12 MB LK or other basic stuff) but mostly I just had a tough time getting in. Eye beams were keeping me from approaching too quickly, and once he got enough meter from them he would just burn a meter on one and it would push me almost full screen again. And once I got in I couldn't capitalize off of a knockdown because his back dash is pretty legit. I haven't found a good option against it yet.

If any of you guys can lend me any advice I'd be grateful, the match is recorded here:
http://www.twitch.tv/clashtournaments/b/399480754
The match I'm talking about starts at 44:40

 

[LEGEND]

Do you guys have any advice on the Superman match up?

I played in a local tournament yesterday and came in second, first place was a good friend of mine who plays Superman. I feel like some of the problem was the set up we were playing on (I was dropping random things all day for no reason, stuff like d12 MB LK or other basic stuff) but mostly I just had a tough time getting in. Eye beams were keeping me from approaching too quickly, and once he got enough meter from them he would just burn a meter on one and it would push me almost full screen again. And once I got in I couldn't capitalize off of a knockdown because his back dash is pretty legit. I haven't found a good option against it yet.

If any of you guys can lend me any advice I'd be grateful, the match is recorded here:
http://www.twitch.tv/clashtournaments/b/399480754
The match I'm talking about starts at 44:40

i'll try and check your games out later, just wanted to say a few things before i have to leave

-you mainly just want to walk in on supes, this way you can jump the eye laser and Lightning charger the eye zap on reaction from anywhere on screen
-whenever supes jumps you have to be very cautious, Since Flash really doesn't have a reliable AA you need to look out for the air dash cross-ups and try to just get out of the way (and hopefully tag him with lightning charge if they wiffed an air attack, or B22 for pressure) Also there is the air lazsr, which isn't to big of a problem imo. All you need to do once you see it start up is wait long enough to confirm that it wasn't MB and you should still have enough time to get a lightning charge punish (depending on the height of the air laser and distance you were at when you blocked it)
-Vs Supermen than like to pressure with F23-Breath, you can D2 under their F23 for a combo. Risky if they scout it but if they are respecting it than it can open up a way out of their pressure

 

[NeckolasBone]

Do you guys have any advice on the Superman match up?

I played in a local tournament yesterday and came in second, first place was a good friend of mine who plays Superman. I feel like some of the problem was the set up we were playing on (I was dropping random things all day for no reason, stuff like d12 MB LK or other basic stuff) but mostly I just had a tough time getting in. Eye beams were keeping me from approaching too quickly, and once he got enough meter from them he would just burn a meter on one and it would push me almost full screen again. And once I got in I couldn't capitalize off of a knockdown because his back dash is pretty legit. I haven't found a good option against it yet.

If any of you guys can lend me any advice I'd be grateful, the match is recorded here:
http://www.twitch.tv/clashtournaments/b/399480754
The match I'm talking about starts at 44:40

dont forget that flash has a shake that is somewhat easily timed for both ground and air laser,and if your close enough you can either lightining dash for knockdown,or if its blocked i like to backdash,and space out f21 or b22.Maybe useless info as its just what im comfortable with using,but however i can help you i will try.

edit,i forgot to mention you must be carefull with the shake,as supes can switch up the timing with the air laser by air dashing,its a pain,so try to keep shake in the closet for a rainy day.Also,his MB laser is hard to time as well,all in all though the shake is still heavily usefull in this MU in my opinion.

edit AGAIN,lol,forget what ive said about MB laser,he cant even MB if you shake.This gives you time to dash in and make the player respect your ability to dictate spacing.

 

[Legion DC]

I cant get pass Nightwings staff. His kali sticks are nothing compared to his staff. Any ideas? Did you all talk about this?

 

[Antiochus III]

I cant get pass Nightwings staff. His kali sticks are nothing compared to his staff. Any ideas? Did you all talk about this?

Pray he never switches to Staff?

Pray to Aisha he stays in Escrima.

 

[ecksyz]

I cant get pass Nightwings staff. His kali sticks are nothing compared to his staff. Any ideas? Did you all talk about this?

I've also had trouble with this match up. Wake up staff spin destroys anything Flash does, and it's safe on block. The best you can do is try to backdash/jump over him on his wake up to bait it out and punish. In Escrima his only real wake up option is his front flip, which is pretty unsafe and can actually completely whiff if you try to hit him with a low d12 string, it leaves him wide open.

His pokes beat most of yours in staff mode. His d1 is faster than nearly everything Flash can use. My best results against a Nightwing in staff mode is to space him out at about midscreen, try to punish any groundblasts with lightning charge and try to bait out a staff spin.

But, the good news is that while he's in Escrima the match most definitely in your favor, especially once you're in his face and out of his projectile's range. I have played many a match against a good Nightwing, where if you can keep him down and keep him from switching to staff mode it's pretty smooth sailing.

 

[Red Reaper]

Nightwing is OP... I'm re-picking him up! lol...

If he's in staff maybe you kan step away and find a moment to use your trait? Use of the interactables helps against Staff since he has lower mobility outside of Flying Grayson. If you get a knockdown the you kan trait and make those reads..

I'm thinking of theories because I haven't really played this match up against a Nightwing in Staff, but I know how OP that stance is...

 

[Strider86]

That Green Lantern matchup is FUCKING Impossible thanks to his stupid machine gun. Though played casuals tonight and was boppin fools with Flash

 

[Red Reaper]

That Green Lantern matchup is FUCKING Impossible thanks to his stupid machine gun. Though played casuals tonight and was boppin fools with Flash

Yes, I told Zyphox that was most likely Flash's worst match up and he didn't believe me..

If we find the answer to Minigun then I think we have the match up in our hands. Even with that answer, I think it will require the most patience when kompared to his other match ups thanx to his trait extending the range on his machine gun.

It will probably mean that we shouldn't lose the life lead and will have to work our way in.

 

[JDE]

How do you guys go about punishing Killer Frost's slide? I block it a ton, but when fighting, I don't "completely" know how to punish it (Sorry for these kinds of questions. I just started playing seriously like 2 days ago. I've only got to play it like 4xs since I've had it & just now figured out my mains).

 

[Red Reaper]

How do you guys go about punishing Killer Frost's slide? I block it a ton, but when fighting, I don't "completely" know how to punish it (Sorry for these kinds of questions. I just started playing seriously like 2 days ago. I've only got to play it like 4xs since I've had it & just now figured out my mains).

You kan't "punish" it on block.

If you block it, you get to go for pressure. If you think they're going to do something then go for D1D2 and you should win. If you think they're going to back dash go for F2 Lightning kick...

These also work as 50/50's...

This is the most basic form of pressure with Flash.

 

[JDE]

You kan't "punish" it on block.

If you block it, you get to go for pressure. If you think they're going to do something then go for D1D2 and you should win. If you think they're going to back dash go for F2 Lightning kick...

These also work as 50/50's...

This is the most basic form of pressure with Flash.

Ah ok.. Thanks

 

[Xenrail]

why is this thread so dead?

i'll make a list of common problems for flash

Green Lantern: Ring Grab, Gatling Gun
Doomsday: Trait
Grundy: Armored Grabs. Wakeup grabs
Wonder Woman: Mostly everything she does is unpunishable
Batman: Parry wakeup if you decide to string
Nightwing: Corner Staff. Air Batarangs keepaway. DF2 wake up if you decide to string. Staff db3 wake up
Deathstroke: Spam. You'll get wrecked if you jump. If you walk you'll take a lot of chip. If he MB even more chip. If you get hit, knocks you back. speed dodge will not help here
Ares: Projectile Spam into Teleport grab/combo mixup will wreck most noobs
Black Adam: Jump Spam with unpunishable Divekick. Lightning Cage wakeup.
Green Arrow: keep away game all day with his db2 when you try to dash up. DB2 wakeup ruins all preemptive strings.
Lex Luthor: bf2 wake up. it's ridiculous lol.
Raven: Full screen grabs if you mistime dashes, etc.
Sinestro: DF1 spam. Boulders aren't bad. DB1 also can catch your dash if you're not reading well.
Superman: against a good supes: everything

source: over 150 ranked games with 70%+ win rate

 

[Hellion_96]

why is this thread so dead?

i'll make a list of common problems for flash

Green Lantern: Ring Grab, Gatling Gun
Doomsday: Trait
Grundy: Armored Grabs. Wakeup grabs
Wonder Woman: Mostly everything she does is unpunishable
Batman: Parry wakeup if you decide to string
Nightwing: Corner Staff. Air Batarangs keepaway. DF2 wake up if you decide to string. Staff db3 wake up
Deathstroke: Spam. You'll get wrecked if you jump. If you walk you'll take a lot of chip. If he MB even more chip. If you get hit, knocks you back. speed dodge will not help here
Ares: Projectile Spam into Teleport grab/combo mixup will wreck most noobs
Black Adam: Jump Spam with unpunishable Divekick. Lightning Cage wakeup.
Green Arrow: keep away game all day with his db2 when you try to dash up. DB2 wakeup ruins all preemptive strings.
Lex Luthor: bf2 wake up. it's ridiculous lol.
Raven: Full screen grabs if you mistime dashes, etc.
Sinestro: DF1 spam. Boulders aren't bad. DB1 also can catch your dash if you're not reading well.
Superman: against a good supes: everything

source: over 150 ranked games with 70%+ win rate

I agree with lantern
Agree with doomsday
you can jump Grundy's WC and punish with charge but yea his grabs are dangerous
WW is a pain
Batman has way more annoying stuff than parry. He eats over 40% if you read it
Nightwing is annoying but not too bad for the flash
You can punish deathstroke with charge from pretty far away on block on nearly all his guns
Ares has no wake ups
Black adam can keep away from flash really easily
Green arrow win the poke war and can keep away pretty good
Lexs charge is full combo punishable
Raven is worse than deathstroke for flash
Sinestro is only a problem from full screen
Superman just plain beats the flash

 

[Xenrail]

You can punish deathstroke with charge from pretty far away on block on nearly all his guns

fullscreen charge will whiff and be punished. if you can get midscreen it'll be ok since you can punish his spam with reversal charge. upon hard knockdown most deathstroke will wakeup with df3 or db3 to prevent your 50/50.

also for people that don't know his assault rifle (mb) rocket is an overhead

Ares has no wake ups

if he manages to get in (which is easy if you don't read right) he can reset on you and do some mad damage

you can jump Grundy's WC and punish with charge but yea his grabs are dangerous

that's what i do most of the time. i armor b3 and jump a lot and attempt to whiff his armored grabs with db3 to get behind him for a punish. you can't really string on good grundy's otherwise they can wakeup and reset up to 97%

Agree with doomsday

only thing for trait you can hope on is to frame trap

Batman has way more annoying stuff than parry. He eats over 40% if you read it

batman has pretty shitty wakeups aside from his parry if you're trying to string an overhead. some of his strings are punishable with d12. a lot of bat players love jumping too so you can try to find some distance with charge (not a great idea since batman has decent zoning potential), lightning uppercut, j1 ahead of time. or armor b3

Nightwing is annoying but not too bad for the flash

if he gets you in the corner with staff, you better tech block cus he has ton of frame advantage with his db3. also he can 76% chip you there on a full meter. db3 (mb), b1, db3 (mb) rinse repeat. his j3 has more priority than your shit and can cancel with air batarangs and knocks you back. also some serious mind games with his ground spark (hold)

Sinestro is only a problem from full screen

if you manage to get past his zoning be prepared for a d2 or b22 combo. he usually punishes most dash ins that way into a reset combo. lightning charge very unsafe on block vs sinestro. full 38%+ punish. can also ruin 50/50 with his df2 (the claw move)

 

[Hellion_96]

fullscreen charge will whiff and be punished. if you can get midscreen it'll be ok since you can punish his spam with reversal charge. upon hard knockdown most deathstroke will wakeup with df3 or db3 to prevent your 50/50.

also for people that don't know his assault rifle (mb) rocket is an overhead


if he manages to get in (which is easy if you don't read right) he can reset on you and do some mad damage


that's what i do most of the time. i armor b3 and jump a lot and attempt to whiff his armored grabs with db3 to get behind him for a punish. you can't really string on good grundy's otherwise they can wakeup and reset up to 97%


only thing for trait you can hope on is to frame trap

Deathstrokes wake ups can be full combo punished and flash can escape ares reset with flying uppercut