Match-up Discussion Flash Matchup Discussion

[SaJa]

This is the only way I found to punish BA's divekick (MB & far distance not garanteed).

:/

 

[Red Reaper]

Sami "Perhaps if you had stayed with Raven you would know that 223 on block has a gap between 2 and 3 which can be parried/dashed out of "

I know that... That was the point of the discussion between Mr. Mileena and I.. This was like Day 1 stuff with Raven.

PS: Replying to you here because the other thread klosed.

 

[Sami]

Sami "Perhaps if you had stayed with Raven you would know that 223 on block has a gap between 2 and 3 which can be parried/dashed out of "

I know that... That was the point of the discussion between Mr. Mileena and I.. This was like Day 1 stuff with Raven.

PS: Replying to you here because the other thread klosed.

Mr. Mileena said 223 was back-dashable and you replied with it's +6, hence I assumed you thought he was on about back-dashing after the 3 (which would be daft), not between the 2 and 3 which could allow you to potentially punish the wiffed 3.

 

[Red Reaper]

Mr. Mileena said 223 was back-dashable and you replied with it's +6, hence I assumed you thought he was on about back-dashing after the 3 (which would be daft), not between the 2 and 3 which could allow you to potentially punish the wiffed 3.

That makes sense.. But yeah... I knew there was a gap. You kould kinda tell by the huge delay so it was one of the first things I tested.

I don't believe you kan punish the 3. The recovery frames on Back Dash are too great. If Raven only does 22 and they back dash, Raven kan Soul Krush quite easily. That was my point with Mr. Mileena.

 

[Sami]

Red Reaper lol I literally just posted the exact same thing in the Raven forums. Wasn't sure on the 3 punish so just tested it and found the 22~special as well. It's much much safer in demon stance though as if they block the whole thing than it's safe (providing you use the safe DS specials).

 

[Red Reaper]

Red Reaper lol I literally just posted the exact same thing in the Raven forums. Wasn't sure on the 3 punish so just tested it and found the 22~special as well. It's much much safer in demon stance though as if they block the whole thing than it's safe (providing you use the safe DS specials).

I wasn't kancelling the 22 into the Special... I would just do 22 and the on reaction to the back dash I would Soul Krush to punish them.

22 is only -1 and Raven has a 6 frame D1 so it's not bad at all. Especially seeing as how plenty others have a 7 frame D1.

 

[AYSAMO]

Wtf do you do vs Green Lantern? This matchup is beyond shitty for Flash.

And backdashing out of Raven's 223 string is only good for escaping her frame advantage. I haven't been able to recover from a backdash fast enough to punish it with anyone. Flash vs Raven is 5-5 though, this is a MU I'm absolutely sure of. She can keep you out, but cannot get you off her without pushblock. If you corner Raven that round is free.

 

[Xenrail]

Wtf do you do vs Green Lantern? This matchup is beyond shitty for Flash.

And backdashing out of Raven's 223 string is only good for escaping her frame advantage. I haven't been able to recover from a backdash fast enough to punish it with anyone. Flash vs Raven is 5-5 though, this is a MU I'm absolutely sure of. She can keep you out, but cannot get you off her without pushblock. If you corner Raven that round is free.

all of green lantern's shit is punishable, some even full combo. if you find that GL is spamming a lot of ring grab on wakeup, then just bait it out, block it and then follow up with b22, f2, or if you're close enough d12. Gatling gun has a pretty big frame startup so if you read it, just lightning charge. you can also reversal charge it for a knockdown. his battering ram is by far the unsafest special he has. punish that accordingly.

as for blocking vs GL. low and then high. you can also punish their 22 start string with d12 if you crouch block it. the combo should whiff and give you time for a d12 starter

 

[AYSAMO]

all of green lantern's shit is punishable, some even full combo. if you find that GL is spamming a lot of ring grab on wakeup, then just bait it out, block it and then follow up with b22, f2, or if you're close enough d12. Gatling gun has a pretty big frame startup so if you read it, just lightning charge. you can also reversal charge it for a knockdown. his battering ram is by far the unsafest special he has. punish that accordingly.

as for blocking vs GL. low and then high. you can also punish their 22 start string with d12 if you crouch block it. the combo should whiff and give you time for a d12 starter

Hold on you can charge the gatling on block? I was definitely under the impression that is not possible.

 

[Xenrail]

Hold on you can charge the gatling on block? I was definitely under the impression that is not possible.

not while it's spewing bullets. you'll collide with the hit box. you can reversal hit confirm as soon as the last bullet hits you

 

[Hiltzy85]

I'm starting to think Batman is a very bad match for Flash. His trait is so good (and recharges so fast), and Flash can't really do anything to anti-air him once he is in cross up range besides try for MB b3. In my experience, back-dashing his jump ins is a bad idea, too, since his main strings seem to move him forward a lot. He may whiff the initial jump attack, but he's still going to get his combo most of the time.

It seems to me like you can't do much to Batman after a knockdown because of parry (stops f21 or b22), and his backdash easily gets him away from d12 or sonic pound when he is getting up. I'm pretty sure that even if you're right on top of him and do f21 on his wakeup, he can still backdash and be safe in time to block or crouch the 1 part of Flash's string.

I think it's a common complaint for us Flash players, but there are an awful lot of characters who have faster normals than Flash, and Batman is one of them.

Is there anything Flash can do against Batman's b23 besides block it and try to walk forward afterward? If I really think about it, Batman basically has better rushdown than flash, better pressure due to trait, far fewer strings that you can just duck under (because like half of Flash's "mids" are crouchable...), a parry AND he can zone.

Any insight?

 

[Xenrail]

I'm starting to think Batman is a very bad match for Flash. His trait is so good (and recharges so fast), and Flash can't really do anything to anti-air him once he is in cross up range besides try for MB b3. In my experience, back-dashing his jump ins is a bad idea, too, since his main strings seem to move him forward a lot. He may whiff the initial jump attack, but he's still going to get his combo most of the time.

It seems to me like you can't do much to Batman after a knockdown because of parry (stops f21 or b22), and his backdash easily gets him away from d12 or sonic pound when he is getting up. I'm pretty sure that even if you're right on top of him and do f21 on his wakeup, he can still backdash and be safe in time to block or crouch the 1 part of Flash's string.

I think it's a common complaint for us Flash players, but there are an awful lot of characters who have faster normals than Flash, and Batman is one of them.

Is there anything Flash can do against Batman's b23 besides block it and try to walk forward afterward? If I really think about it, Batman basically has better rushdown than flash, better pressure due to trait, far fewer strings that you can just duck under (because like half of Flash's "mids" are crouchable...), a parry AND he can zone.

Any insight?

you can punish b23 if you read it coming or if he whiffs. lightning charge it if he whiffs just to throw it out there or backdash the b23 and charge in his face. if you whiff, block or d12 while they're doing their mandatory dash cancel during b23

batmans strings that are full combo punishable by flash d12 are

123
113
112
223

d12 on the first 1 and on the second 2 during 223 IIRC

batmans do wakeup parry a lot but it's very easy to counter. if a batman sniffs my string and i can read this, i'll hit him with a d12 into 52-55%. on the next knockdown if he decides to parry again or i feel he's going to try to block a d12 from me, i mixup with a j1 21 into 40%+ right after. Good bats players at this point will be conditioned to stop all wakeup parries and revert to wakeup slide or back dash. if you block slide it's full combo punishable. if they backdash and they find some spacing/distance most likely they're going to trait, batarang, grapple, or rush in. at this point just crouch block. let the bats trait get blocked and wait for the batarang or grapple. if you're comfortable with flash and this read you can speed dodge and follow up immediately with lightning charge or once it whiffs and it's not fullscreen then you can punish it. if it is fullscreen and you block it, just start dashing in.

after landing my successful 50/50 mixups above most batmans i played get pretty frustrated, get confused because their stand block isn't working against Flash (like it does against most bad Flashs) and just do go autopilot and do stupid shit/ragequit.

for their crossups, just monitor their spacing between you and him when you're blocking. if you're familiar with it you can walk forward and block, just dash forward to punish the jump, or push block (funny when i do this, batmans get confused).

something very hard to block against batman is traits from the front into a crossup

i had problems with batmans first starting out but now theyre pretty much cheese, just like deathstrokes

 

[Hiltzy85]

INFORMATION

It's definitely very useful to know that Flash can d12 under the highs in batman's strings. When I think back about the matches I had been playing against various batmen, I realize that I was standing up too often, which it seems that there is no reason to do aside from blocking b23, the overhead ender of the b1 string or whatever other random overheads he has

 

[Xenrail]

It's definitely very useful to know that Flash can d12 under the highs in batman's strings. When I think back about the matches I had been playing against various batmen, I realize that I was standing up too often, which it seems that there is no reason to do aside from blocking b23, the overhead ender of the b1 string or whatever other random overheads he has

best way to block vs batman is low and then high for the rest. if you know bats is gonna go in on starting 1 you can immediately follow up with your counter punish.

nearly all of batman's try to open you up with b112/b113. if he notices you're blocking low and high his game plan will be to hit you with an overhead after a hard knockdown. if you start to block high he'll start spamming his b112 b113 strings. one combo to look out for that low high blocking that bats can confirm off of is 123. it's high, mid, low and he can confirm off that. the string is easy to recognize block on reaction after you played enough batmans.

if he catches you in a series of block strings and fails to open you up, he will crossup or grab

 

[Xenrail]

jump spammers, turtlers are pretty annoying too btw

 

[ecksyz]

when people told me the Shazam match up had gotten ten times harder with the patch they weren't kidding. it almost feels easier to keep him standing than to knock him down, his wakeup teleport is so dang good.

 

[BCE]

yesterday i went to a local tournament and played flash and green lantern, against aquaman i HAD to use greenlantern just because that ridiculous trait, anyway, i was sent to losers by a Doomday and in the grand finals i face the same guy with the same doomday. please, what can i do against this bullshit ? i know i can punish the "meteor smash" with F or B 3, i know i cant punish the shoulder dash EX, i know he will always try to crossup with that ridiculous air attack, but the question is what i can possibly do during the +frames of his dash EX and when i block his crossup that for some reason also is plus and i am obligated to guess if he will low or overhead. sigh -_-

 

[Reptile Orion]

you can punish b23 if you read it coming or if he whiffs. lightning charge it if he whiffs just to throw it out there or backdash the b23 and charge in his face. if you whiff, block or d12 while they're doing their mandatory dash cancel during b23

batmans strings that are full combo punishable by flash d12 are

123
113
112
223

d12 on the first 1 and on the second 2 during 223 IIRC

batmans do wakeup parry a lot but it's very easy to counter. if a batman sniffs my string and i can read this, i'll hit him with a d12 into 52-55%. on the next knockdown if he decides to parry again or i feel he's going to try to block a d12 from me, i mixup with a j1 21 into 40%+ right after. Good bats players at this point will be conditioned to stop all wakeup parries and revert to wakeup slide or back dash. if you block slide it's full combo punishable. if they backdash and they find some spacing/distance most likely they're going to trait, batarang, grapple, or rush in. at this point just crouch block. let the bats trait get blocked and wait for the batarang or grapple. if you're comfortable with flash and this read you can speed dodge and follow up immediately with lightning charge or once it whiffs and it's not fullscreen then you can punish it. if it is fullscreen and you block it, just start dashing in.

after landing my successful 50/50 mixups above most batmans i played get pretty frustrated, get confused because their stand block isn't working against Flash (like it does against most bad Flashs) and just do go autopilot and do stupid shit/ragequit.

for their crossups, just monitor their spacing between you and him when you're blocking. if you're familiar with it you can walk forward and block, just dash forward to punish the jump, or push block (funny when i do this, batmans get confused).

something very hard to block against batman is traits from the front into a crossup

i had problems with batmans first starting out but now theyre pretty much cheese, just like deathstrokes

Great info. As a Batman/Aquaman main I struggled more than I'd like against a pretty good Flash player last night. Unfortunately the guy was such a shit talker I'd never want to add that a-hole to my friends list . If anyone is up for a Batman mirror let me know. I could use some more practice with this matchup.

 

[Hellion_96]

I'm convinced Flash loses 13-18 matchups. Nightwing,batman,green lantern, wonder women, superman, aquaman, killer frost, deathstroke, black adam, cyborg, raven, hawkgirl doomsday, possibly grundy, sinestro, ares, batgirl, green arrow. Thoughts?

 

[Xenrail]

• Nightwing 6-4 (staff stance is rough. flying grayson and staff spin are completely safe to stuff 50/50s)
• Batman 6-4 close to 5-5 (mainly bc his trait covers punishable windows. 5-5 since flash can punish batman's strings with d12)
• Green Lantern 5-5 (you can full combo ring grab wakeups. his gatling gun and jumping projectiles make this mu a little harder)
• Wonder Women 5-5 (most of her shit is safe but it feels like an ok matchup)
• Superman 7-3 (he can play keepaway all day and footsies because of his normal and special mixup links)
• Aquaman 6-4 (his trait gives him the edge. he's punishable)
• Killer Frost 8-2 (her slide is completely safe. fast projectiles and she can confirm off her icicle with slide. her overhead is insanely fast. she's got a reset mid combo that you have no choice but to guess)
• Deathstroke 5-5 (his shit is punishable except for his ballerina spin. if you read it you can backdash, let it whiff and punish. his 50/50 is good and if you can't keep DS locked down in the corner you will most likely lose. read his jumps when he gets close to a corner)
• Black Adam 6-4 (footdive safe. mad bruh?)
• Cyborg 8-2 (if cyborg plays right you should never be able to get in)
• Raven 6-4 (fast projectiles into grab. if you can get an early lead and corner her all game then you should be able to win)
• Hawkgirl 5-5 (annoying matchup. her mace charge is safe on block. but this one feels like a wonder woman matchup)
• Doomsday 5-5 (can be a hard matchup if you don't know it. nearly all of his specials are punishable. if he meterburns his venom he has advantage. you're forced to block/push block or eat a grab or guess a d3, overhead. trait also gives him an edge. dont give him the chance to use it)
• Grundy 5-5 (grundy's got a good 50/50 game with his normal-special strings. you can completely cockblock his wcc wakeups and full combo punish by using lightning kick - it's throw immune)
• Sinestro 5-5 (same matchup as deathstroke. watch out for arachnid sting wakeups. it's pretty much safe and you can no longer d12 full combo punish it)
• Ares ??? (im stll learning this matchup)
• Batgirl 6-4 (she's like flash but has access to projectiles)
• Green Arrow 5-5 (he's got a good mixup game. his evade shot can be slightly punished with charge or f21. you'll eat a hit but he'll get pushed back closer to the corner. once he's there you have every advantage.)

 

[Hellion_96]

• Nightwing 6-4 (staff stance is rough. flying grayson and staff spin are completely safe to stuff 50/50s)
• Batman 6-4 close to 5-5 (mainly bc his trait covers punishable windows. 5-5 since flash can punish batman's strings with d12)
• Green Lantern 5-5 (you can full combo ring grab wakeups. his gatling gun and jumping projectiles make this mu a little harder)
• Wonder Women 5-5 (most of her shit is safe but it feels like an ok matchup)
• Superman 7-3 (he can play keepaway all day and footsies because of his normal and special mixup links)
• Aquaman 6-4 (his trait gives him the edge. he's punishable)
• Killer Frost 8-2 (her slide is completely safe. fast projectiles and she can confirm off her icicle with slide. her overhead is insanely fast. she's got a reset mid combo that you have no choice but to guess)
• Deathstroke 5-5 (his shit is punishable except for his ballerina spin. if you read it you can backdash, let it whiff and punish. his 50/50 is good and if you can't keep DS locked down in the corner you will most likely lose. read his jumps when he gets close to a corner)
• Black Adam 6-4 (footdive safe. mad bruh?)
• Cyborg 8-2 (if cyborg plays right you should never be able to get in)
• Raven 6-4 (fast projectiles into grab. if you can get an early lead and corner her all game then you should be able to win)
• Hawkgirl 5-5 (annoying matchup. her mace charge is safe on block. but this one feels like a wonder woman matchup)
• Doomsday 5-5 (can be a hard matchup if you don't know it. nearly all of his specials are punishable. if he meterburns his venom he has advantage. you're forced to block/push block or eat a grab or guess a d3, overhead. trait also gives him an edge. dont give him the chance to use it)
• Grundy 5-5 (grundy's got a good 50/50 game with his normal-special strings. you can completely cockblock his wcc wakeups and full combo punish by using lightning kick - it's throw immune)
• Sinestro 5-5 (same matchup as deathstroke. watch out for arachnid sting wakeups. it's pretty much safe and you can no longer d12 full combo punish it)
• Ares ??? (im stll learning this matchup)
• Batgirl 6-4 (she's like flash but has access to projectiles)
• Green Arrow 5-5 (he's got a good mixup game. his evade shot can be slightly punished with charge or f21. you'll eat a hit but he'll get pushed back closer to the corner. once he's there you have every advantage.)

You could def be right I just dont see flash beating the characters i listed at the highest level. Deathstroke Is more punishable now but he can wakeup safely so idk if it was a good trade off. Wonder woman out ranges flash, controls the air, and is safe on everything I can't see how the flash goes even. green lantern can pretty much keep flash out long enough to build a lot of meter and when flash gets in he has to deal with b1 which is better than all of flashs ranged normals. I'm not saying he loses 3-7 to everyone but he has no free matchups at all

 

[Xenrail]

You could def be right I just dont see flash beating the characters i listed at the highest level. Deathstroke Is more punishable now but he can wakeup safely so idk if it was a good trade off. Wonder woman out ranges flash, controls the air, and is safe on everything I can't see how the flash goes even. green lantern can pretty much keep flash out long enough to build a lot of meter and when flash gets in he has to deal with b1 which is better than all of flashs ranged normals. I'm not saying he loses 3-7 to everyone but he has no free matchups at all

nearl all of deathstroke's specials on wakeup are punishable/can be stuffed except for his ballerina sword spin. that move on wakeup has true invincibility frames

 

[Qwark28]

• Nightwing 6-4 (staff stance is rough. flying grayson and staff spin are completely safe to stuff 50/50s)
• Batman 6-4 close to 5-5 (mainly bc his trait covers punishable windows. 5-5 since flash can punish batman's strings with d12)
• Green Lantern 5-5 (you can full combo ring grab wakeups. his gatling gun and jumping projectiles make this mu a little harder)
• Wonder Women 5-5 (most of her shit is safe but it feels like an ok matchup)
• Superman 7-3 (he can play keepaway all day and footsies because of his normal and special mixup links)
• Aquaman 6-4 (his trait gives him the edge. he's punishable)
• Killer Frost 8-2 (her slide is completely safe. fast projectiles and she can confirm off her icicle with slide. her overhead is insanely fast. she's got a reset mid combo that you have no choice but to guess)
• Deathstroke 5-5 (his shit is punishable except for his ballerina spin. if you read it you can backdash, let it whiff and punish. his 50/50 is good and if you can't keep DS locked down in the corner you will most likely lose. read his jumps when he gets close to a corner)
• Black Adam 6-4 (footdive safe. mad bruh?)
• Cyborg 8-2 (if cyborg plays right you should never be able to get in)
• Raven 6-4 (fast projectiles into grab. if you can get an early lead and corner her all game then you should be able to win)
• Hawkgirl 5-5 (annoying matchup. her mace charge is safe on block. but this one feels like a wonder woman matchup)
• Doomsday 5-5 (can be a hard matchup if you don't know it. nearly all of his specials are punishable. if he meterburns his venom he has advantage. you're forced to block/push block or eat a grab or guess a d3, overhead. trait also gives him an edge. dont give him the chance to use it)
• Grundy 5-5 (grundy's got a good 50/50 game with his normal-special strings. you can completely cockblock his wcc wakeups and full combo punish by using lightning kick - it's throw immune)
• Sinestro 5-5 (same matchup as deathstroke. watch out for arachnid sting wakeups. it's pretty much safe and you can no longer d12 full combo punish it)
• Ares ??? (im stll learning this matchup)
• Batgirl 6-4 (she's like flash but has access to projectiles)
• Green Arrow 5-5 (he's got a good mixup game. his evade shot can be slightly punished with charge or f21. you'll eat a hit but he'll get pushed back closer to the corner. once he's there you have every advantage.)

Black adam doesn't just win 6-4 and definately not because of his divekick. I don't know any black adam who'd rather do a non ex divekick into flash's face when he already has decent zoning.
Doomsday and some others sure as hell beat flash.

 

[Mosp]

• Green Lantern 5-5 (you can full combo ring grab wakeups. his gatling gun and jumping projectiles make this mu a little harder)

I don't really agree with this at all because GL can zone Flash really hard in this match, he has no reason to go in when he has the advantage from fullscreen. He can just trait into gattling gun and you're forced to block it from fullscreen not to mention meter burn his gattling gun for a good amount of chip and damage on hit. This also gives him control of a lot of space and this is where interactables help him out a good deal depending on the stage. Sure Flash can try to make his way into a distance where he can try to punish the gattling gun but if you mess up and are just a little late he gets a full combo, it's high risk low reward and is a terrible situation. I feel like the only way to win this match is with ridiculous reads and flawless execution with reversals for punishes and not dropping a single combo.

One more thing about this match is GL b1 > all of Flash's strings, this is extrememly annoying in the footsie range (if you can even manage to get in past all that zoning). I don't see this being a 5-5 at all but I would still like to hear how other Flash players deal with the matchup.

 

[Hellion_96]

I don't really agree with this at all because GL can zone Flash really hard in this match, he has no reason to go in when he has the advantage from fullscreen. He can just trait into gattling gun and you're forced to block it from fullscreen not to mention meter burn his gattling gun for a good amount of chip and damage on hit. This also gives him control of a lot of space and this is where interactables help him out a good deal depending on the stage. Sure Flash can try to make his way into a distance where he can try to punish the gattling gun but if you mess up and are just a little late he gets a full combo, it's high risk low reward and is a terrible situation. I feel like the only way to win this match is with ridiculous reads and flawless execution with reversals for punishes and not dropping a single combo.


One more thing about this match is GL b1 > all of Flash's strings, this is extrememly annoying in the footsie range (if you can even manage to get in past all that zoning). I don't see this being a 5-5 at all but I would still like to hear how other Flash players deal with the matchup.

GL beats flash. B1 shuts all of flash's strings down and if the gl can block confirm into gatling flash will never be close to GL. Flash can phaze through all his projectiles to build meter but it doesn't mean much cause gl can easily get a life lead and sitting there phazing through projectiles just wastes clock. and flash has no anti air which means free jump ins