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Strategy They patching smoke?

McNasty

Moist.
what you saw was most likely fuzzy guarding where the animation was stuck low but he had let go to neutral. Check out the archived footage of RevaLAtions from this past weekend on justintv/offcast I believe it starts around part 6 of day 2 you will see aris playing smoke very well with the patch in place.
 

cabibi

Noob
Don't get your hopes high: it seems Aris opps just forgot to block it - that's all.
Are you sure about that? Did you test it or are you just throwing out a theory? Because Both his opps blocked his 312 strings no problem. Replacing the 2 with a smoke bomb is still 3 hits... so I think it would be extremely unlikely that the 4 times he threw it, 2 separate opps blocked the first two hits but forgot to block the smoke bomb.

I can't test it because I don't have a patched version to work with.
 

cabibi

Noob
Its possible it was fuzzy. But Both ops were standing the whole time, and did so for all the blocks to prevent the overhead. Even in the 312's that were blocked, neither opponent ever did fuzzy. Watch the vid man. The odds of each opp fuzzy blocking during each time they were launched, but never did it during any other string, are pretty small.

Id really like to see it tested to put this to bed.
 

hardwire

Noob
Don't get your hopes high: it seems Aris opps just forgot to block it - that's all.
this


ya know maybe we should get tom to ask nrs to give us a low

i mean his 3 d1 2 string looks like he kicks them in the balls shouldnt it start low ???
 

cabibi

Noob
this


ya know maybe we should get tom to ask nrs to give us a low

i mean his 3 d1 2 string looks like he kicks them in the balls shouldnt it start low ???
Now that I think about it, having a low and an overhead in the same string would make the otg complaints look trivial. Smoke should get a low launcher as well though.
 
The reason Aris went smoke is likely because they sprang the patch on all of the players the night before the tournament. No one had time to adjust. Aris has been playing Raiden lately, but he goes on during the stream about how badly he's been nerfed due to B+3, 1, 2 being -1 on block. His only alt is smoke, and he prolly went with him because he had no other choice. He's talked about how smoke is bad in the past and dropped him even before any nerfs.

I'd like to hear more about these buffs that supposedly happened. I don't know why they take one thing out and compensate with another like this, it's annoying but at least it's something. Offhand though, it didn't look like smoke bomb was scaling any less during combos.
 

THTB

Arez | Booya | Riu48 - Rest Easy, Friends
Smoke is an anti-zone character. He is designed to deal with zoners and he has frame advantage on his launcher strings and smoke bomb. He does not need a low when he can attack before you if you block him. Having frame advantage is a great pressure tool...use it.

You guys have a character that makes zoners come to you and you have the tools to win.
 

SZSR

Noob
Smoke is an anti-zone character. He is designed to deal with zoners and he has frame advantage on his launcher strings and smoke bomb. He does not need a low when he can attack before you if you block him. Having frame advantage is a great pressure tool...use it.

You guys have a character that makes zoners come to you and you have the tools to win.
He has frame advantage on all his launcher strings? That is interesting and helpful to know, but doesn't help when you're fighting rush down, he can't combo back before the guy rushing down goes back to his business. I mean the tools he has to get out of the situation either cost meter or are easily punished.
 

THTB

Arez | Booya | Riu48 - Rest Easy, Friends
What character doesn't have escape tools like that...? He actually has it better than quite a few characters considering his EX teleport and EX shake, as well as the generic lows.

Also, Smoke has invisibility...something nobody is utilizing yet.
 

cabibi

Noob
Smoke is an anti-zone character. He is designed to deal with zoners and he has frame advantage on his launcher strings and smoke bomb. He does not need a low when he can attack before you if you block him. Having frame advantage is a great pressure tool...use it.

You guys have a character that makes zoners come to you and you have the tools to win.
holy crap he does lol. you have to time it right to where the kick hits just as he's waking up, but he definitely has a frame advantage. I'm sure it looses to wakeup fast specials, but still.... I just put on practice mode with a standing block always on, and I was able to loop a 3 d2 1.

Sweet! we had a legitimate way to bait wake ups and didn't even know it!
 

hardwire

Noob
Smoke is an anti-zone character. He is designed to deal with zoners and he has frame advantage on his launcher strings and smoke bomb. He does not need a low when he can attack before you if you block him. Having frame advantage is a great pressure tool...use it.

You guys have a character that makes zoners come to you and you have the tools to win.
i dont want to hear it from a reptile player

sorry but any one that gets a quick as hell dash that is basicly BASICLY safe on block is rediculase

i dont think its to much to give him 1 useful mixup tool

hell at this point make smoke bomb hit low it hits the ground for god sake


edit: also about your frame advantage

you havent played a good cage have you

we cant even jump away and good luck geting ex shake to activate b4 you get hit.
 

hardwire

Noob
holy crap he does lol. you have to time it right to where the kick hits just as he's waking up, but he definitely has a frame advantage. I'm sure it looses to wakeup fast specials, but still.... I just put on practice mode with a standing block always on, and I was able to loop a 3 d2 1.

Sweet! we had a legitimate way to bait wake ups and didn't even know it!
no we dont

i have known about this sence day 1 even kitanas wake up beats it



ps sorry if i seam salty i just had a tooth pulled so im hurting like hell
 
Smoke does have advantage on his launcher string. That's never been the problem. The problem is that the string is slow and anyone who's ever played against smoke can see it coming from a mile away, so it can be risky, especially when used as a meaty.

Yes, smoke is an anti-zone character. His major problem is when the opponent ISNT ZONING. Characters like Lao and Cage can get in for free (smoke has piss-poor keepaway) and wreck him up close. Even some zoning characters still have advantage up close against him, such as sub zero. He has very problematic matchups, and removing the OTG exacerbated those matchups without alleviating the matchups he destroys in (such as vs noob).

I'd really like to hear what these other alleged changes are to see if they really helped bring things down closer to 5/5 against those rushdown characters.
 

cabibi

Noob
no we dont

i have known about this sence day 1 even kitanas wake up beats it



ps sorry if i seam salty i just had a tooth pulled so im hurting like hell
lmao. it's all good man.

but yea wake ups beat the frame advantage; however, if you get them to think they have to do a wake up (since block doesn't work) in order to deal with your frame advantage combo... well wake ups are usually punishable. after you've gotten the frame advantage a few times, they'll start waking up when you dash forward... just block, open up their ass hole, stick your foot in it, and start dancing like lady gaga.
 

Zebster

How's my volume?
I'd really like to hear what these other alleged changes are to see if they really helped bring things down closer to 5/5 against those rushdown characters.
VVV
Changes for Smoke:
pakostevens Paulo Garcia
@ZebiaX enh'd smoke bomb can hit knocked down opp (otg's) for unscaled dam (but won't juggle them), and parry exploit gone.
pakostevens Paulo Garcia
@ZebiaX he can escape towards throws without being punished, wiff'd air teleports land/recover faster, less dam scaling after smoke bombs
Anyway, yeah Smoke does have trouble against non-zoners but do you really expect him to be good against everyone? He has a specific "job" and that is to beat zoners. Other fighting games have this where there are characters designed to fight certain types of characters. Take for example, E. Honda in ST. He has trouble against people with a fireball, but he wrecks people who don't. You see? He has a specific purpose, and that is to counter non-zoners, as it is Smoke's purpose to counter zoners.
 
It's generally the goal of character design to have the tools to win every matchup without overpowering the opponent. Otherwise the game devolves into rock-paper-scissors style counter picking nonsense.

And in this game, many characters do have nearly a 5/5 against everyone. It's definitely a problem that smoke has serious problems in some matchups.

As for your alleged changes, that list is clearly not comprehensive considering it ends in a comma and has no conjunction in the list. On top of that, looking at the matches at revelations, it doesn't look like his combo damage actually changed. I'd appreciate concrete examples or people testing to get some real info.

Finally, smoke's oki was never an issue. His oki is actually very good off of anything but a plain throw. The issue is getting the knockdown in the first place. Standing 3 won't help you there - it's slow as balls.
 

Zebster

How's my volume?
As for your alleged changes, that list is clearly not comprehensive considering it ends in a comma and has no conjunction in the list. On top of that, looking at the matches at revelations, it doesn't look like his combo damage actually changed. I'd appreciate concrete examples or people testing to get some real info.
It ended in a comma because I quoted the two messages in the wrong order.
I don't know why you keep calling them alleged changes, they come from Paulo himself.
 

SZSR

Noob
It's generally the goal of character design to have the tools to win every matchup without overpowering the opponent. Otherwise the game devolves into rock-paper-scissors style counter picking nonsense.

And in this game, many characters do have nearly a 5/5 against everyone. It's definitely a problem that smoke has serious problems in some matchups.

As for your alleged changes, that list is clearly not comprehensive considering it ends in a comma and has no conjunction in the list. On top of that, looking at the matches at revelations, it doesn't look like his combo damage actually changed. I'd appreciate concrete examples or people testing to get some real info.

Finally, smoke's oki was never an issue. His oki is actually very good off of anything but a plain throw. The issue is getting the knockdown in the first place. Standing 3 won't help you there - it's slow as balls.
THTB did have a point about using invisibility though. Today, I saw that opponents are caught off guard more often with invisibility when doing 3, D+1, 2 as well as b+2, 3. Perhaps the MK team had a different idea about how to use Smoke, I think he's shaping up to be a strictly mind-game character with decent enough damage to make opponents to back off to get back to anti-zoning. That's probably why we were given the oki bomb as an air throw follow up as it moves the opponent a quite a distance away.

Perhaps we as the Smoke users need to come up with a zoning/anti zoning strategy to catch opponents off guard.
 
I looked at the actual tweet. It ends in a comma. I call them alleged because one of them doesn't seem to be doing anything at all, and the rest are unconfirmed.


Anti-zoning isn't a problem for smoke. True zoning isn't an option. He doesn't have the tools to apply real pressure from range. If there is some magic answer to these bad matchups, I really doubt invisibility is it. Invisibility masks your attack patterns, but again that was never really the problem. The problem is getting enough of an advantage to start up an offense, and by then I'd rather start a true oki pattern.
 

Zebster

How's my volume?
I looked at the actual tweet. It ends in a comma. I call them alleged because one of them doesn't seem to be doing anything at all, and the rest are unconfirmed.
The comma: Look at it again. Notice that the newer tweets are above the older ones, then consider that the one with the comma is below the one with the period. It should be obvious that the one with the comma came first and then came the one with the period.

Also the only one that hasn't been confirmed is the damage scaling.
 
Which might have been relevant if the second post was anywhere near the first one. Also, you lost a bunch of credibility when you went back into your post and removed the comma.

The damage scaling is the easiest thing by far to confirm. Just do the combo and see what the damage is. From the combos I saw using the bomb, it's unchanged. If anything, it's the only thing that has been de-confirmed and the rest remain unconfirmed.

Someone with the patch will have to investigate.

Also, "jobs"? This is a fighting game. You don't want characters who slaughter some and lose terribly to others. This isn't an MMO.