Strategy They patching smoke?

[THTB]

To corroborate, watch the grand finals of CEO. Punished with 2 2 ice blast combo. Smoke can definitely get at least a throw. Now he'll probably be able to get a full combo, or at least a B+2

Smoke gets 21 xx smoke bomb easy even pre-patch.

This is why I keep saying to myself people don't even know their characters...

 

[Zebster]

Smoke gets 21 xx smoke bomb easy even pre-patch.

This is why I keep saying to myself people don't even know their characters...

But can you blame them? They probably don't have people to test this stuff. Tis a shame really. Probably wouldn't have this problem if training mode wasn't so terrible.

 

[THTB]

I don't either. All I have is online (which can work for testing, btw). But yeah, anything fast easily punishes dash. Which means jabs work the best. 21 is a jab that's fairly quick.

 

[ApocaLips]

I didn't say he gets a full combo because 2, 1 doesn't lead to nearly as much damage as an actual full 3, D+1, 2 combo. It's noticeably less damage. I tell people to start punishing with throw because it's an easy, 1-button punish that will probably work for them even if they mess up the timing. But sure, you can take that to mean I don't know my character I guess.

I don't know why you think you can just drop in and revolutionize how smoke is played. Invisibility is an ass move, and if you put any amount of thought into it you can easily see that it's the worst of its kind in the game. We've known about the tiny amount of frame advantage on his launcher for a very long time, and even that's nothing special.

 

[SZSR]

What about damage boost? Reptile gets it from turning on his invisibility, why not Smoke? We could try to request that (although I doubt they would listen).

 

[GNG Iniquity]

I can never find any applicable uses for ex invis with Rep, the game still tracks you so it's pretty obvious where you are, most people just start throwing out projectiles too to get you out of it immediately. EX invis shake can be a simple way to get back in your opponent's face if they're unfamiliar with it, however.

 

[SZSR]

I can never find any applicable uses for ex invis with Rep, the game still tracks you so it's pretty obvious where you are, most people just start throwing out projectiles too to get you out of it immediately. EX invis shake can be a simple way to get back in your opponent's face if they're unfamiliar with it, however.

Why? All you have to do is dash duck against most projectiles and do an elbow dash or your long reaching sweep (which you guys was the fortune of having). At this point if an opponent sees random Smoke vibrating, I think they'd be aware of the attacking happening, elbow dash all they hear is an animation sound.

 

[THTB]

I didn't say he gets a full combo because 2, 1 doesn't lead to nearly as much damage as an actual full 3, D+1, 2 combo. It's noticeably less damage. I tell people to start punishing with throw because it's an easy, 1-button punish that will probably work for them even if they mess up the timing. But sure, you can take that to mean I don't know my character I guess.

I don't know why you think you can just drop in and revolutionize how smoke is played. Invisibility is an ass move, and if you put any amount of thought into it you can easily see that it's the worst of its kind in the game. We've known about the tiny amount of frame advantage on his launcher for a very long time, and even that's nothing special.

21 xx smoke bomb leads to a juggle...that's not a full combo...? I'm sorry, but what makes anything after 3d12 a full combo, but not 21 xx smoke bomb? Nothing really.

Invisibility is really not ass. Nah, he doesn't get damage boost from the EX one, but a move that makes your character harder to see, regardless, is not a bad move at all. I'm not trying to revolutionize the character...just, like I said, people really don't know their characters. I mentioned a combo Smoke could use for punishment and that no one is using invisibility. No one has really tapped this character...not Aris, not MarkMan, not whoever uses Smoke. And the same goes for a lot of other characters.

 

[fleshmasher]

I wonder what was their motivation, balance wise, to give Reptile's :en Inv. damage buff, but not Smoke's :en Inv.
Do they know something about Smoke or his Inv. we don't?

 

[THTB]

There really isn't any. But regardless, it's useful. I don't use EX invis for the damage boost, in all honesty (It's very minor, btw, especially post-hotfix).

 

[SZSR]

I wonder what was their motivation, balance wise, to give Reptile's :en Inv. damage buff, but not Smoke's :en Inv.
Do they know something about Smoke or his Inv. we don't?

There really isn't any. But regardless, it's useful. I don't use EX invis for the damage boost, in all honesty (It's very minor, btw, especially post-hotfix).

Can Reptile phase through projectiles if you time the invisibility right too? I never do it in a fight but that's one thing that's been found for smoke (by Brady).

As for tapping Smoke, I agree we are probably just scratching the surface of Smoke's craziness, I just wish testers gave us more hints than just what we're given.

 

[ApocaLips]

21 xx smoke bomb leads to a juggle...that's not a full combo...? I'm sorry, but what makes anything after 3d12 a full combo, but not 21 xx smoke bomb? Nothing really.

The damage does... it doesn't do the same damage as a full punish combo, which if you look at what I said, was the whole point.

Invisibility is really not ass. Nah, he doesn't get damage boost from the EX one, but a move that makes your character harder to see, regardless, is not a bad move at all.

The problem isn't that it doesn't provide a benefit. The problem is that at the times where you can do it without getting punished, you always have better, less risky options. One of smoke's major strengths is his oki, and trading that for invis isn't at all worth it.

I've been experimenting with doing it after a normal throw since you can't do much in terms of oki off of that anyway, but it rarely gets me any advantage. Having invisibility at full screen just isn't helpful. You're gonna have to block somethign before you get in.

I'm not trying to revolutionize the character...just, like I said, people really don't know their characters. I mentioned a combo Smoke could use for punishment and that no one is using invisibility. No one has really tapped this character...not Aris, not MarkMan, not whoever uses Smoke. And the same goes for a lot of other characters.

You provided a basic punishment combo that people 1.) already knew about (check earlier in this thread), and 2.) is only useful against a small handful of moves. You also said 'hey, try this move because I haven't seen people use it.' That doesn't mean we don't know about the character. It means that you haven't really thought hard about actually trying to use invisibility as part of his game. If you find a concrete way to make it work, I'd love to hear it. As it stands, all you're saying is that we don't know our character because we don't use a move that's frankly pretty ass compared to smoke's other options in any given situation. Very weak case.


Look, I know you're a great and talented player. I respect you. However, that doesn't give you the right to walk in, tell everyone that no one knows how to play a character, and then walk away without contributing anything. If you have techniques with smoke that you want to share, we're all ears. I'll be eagerly awaiting when you do that. Until then, easy on the vindication, because it really discredits you.

 

[Kwon]

I actually think they could add a lil damageboost to Reptile and Smoke when they're invis!

Should motivate more people to utlizie the invisibility.

Or just being able to shift to invis faster.

 

[THTB]

A combo from 21 xx smoke bomb is a full combo from a jab, regardless of the damage. With 1.02 Smoke, it is a 31% punish, which is about 6% less than the most damaging combo you can currently get with this version of Smoke.

As far as using invisibility...1.02 Smoke's most optimal ender for a combo can be f4 xx invisibility if you are close to a corner. You don't suffer any sort of damage loss, since the ender is f4 and nothing else combos into that. If you aren't close to a wall, you can opt out for 214 xx forward teleport, which doesn't have the side effect of putting yourself closer to the corner instead. Also, invisibility from anywhere on the screen is useful. The simple fact that it's harder for the opponent to pinpoint proper spacing makes things much better for you, whether it's footsies or zoning. You don't have to have magical setups or anything, just play fundamentally well and use it to bait out mistakes.

And being able to jab punish for 31% is very good, even in this game. There are characters who would die for such an option.

I say people don't know their characters because a majority of the time, people are just saying "make this character better!" instead of just putting in work to understand them more. So many characters are just unexplored atm, which is what I'm getting at, really...Smoke included.

 

[cabibi]

I actually think they could add a lil damageboost to Reptile and Smoke when they're invis!

Should motivate more people to utlizie the invisibility.

Or just being able to shift to invis faster.

That would be over powered lol. If people don't understand the rationale of using invisibility, then they have the right not to use it. What THTB said about spacing is 100% correct. It nullifies your opponent's attack patterns while simultaneously giving you an advantage on yours.

 

[ApocaLips]

A combo from 21 xx smoke bomb is a full combo from a jab, regardless of the damage. With 1.02 Smoke, it is a 31% punish, which is about 6% less than the most damaging combo you can currently get with this version of Smoke.

Which is still noticeably less than normal. That's been my point. Yes, it's a combo, but it's not optimal damage.

As far as using invisibility...1.02 Smoke's most optimal ender for a combo can be f4 xx invisibility if you are close to a corner. You don't suffer any sort of damage loss, since the ender is f4 and nothing else combos into that. If you aren't close to a wall, you can opt out for 214 xx forward teleport, which doesn't have the side effect of putting yourself closer to the corner instead. Also, invisibility from anywhere on the screen is useful. The simple fact that it's harder for the opponent to pinpoint proper spacing makes things much better for you, whether it's footsies or zoning. You don't have to have magical setups or anything, just play fundamentally well and use it to bait out mistakes.

Again, the issue isn't that it doesn't provide any benefit. It's that any time you can safely use it, he has better, more dependable options.

And being able to jab punish for 31% is very good, even in this game. There are characters who would die for such an option.

I didn't say it was bad, just that it isn't what smoke usually gets off of a punish, and that the times you have to use it as a punish are fairly few.

I say people don't know their characters because a majority of the time, people are just saying "make this character better!" instead of just putting in work to understand them more. So many characters are just unexplored atm, which is what I'm getting at, really...Smoke included.

I'm not calling for that. I think making the bomb true low instead of special low would be retarded and out of character for smoke. I just rather they didn't nerf him. If I'd change anything, I'd give him a shitty projectile like a plain fireball just to be able to put some minor pressure on rushdown characters so that they don't get in for free. I'm not going around asking for that though. I'm totally against the mentality of asking for character buffs instead of actually trying to figure out the game.

 

[M2Dave]

If I'd change anything, I'd give him a shitty projectile like a plain fireball just to be able to put some minor pressure on rushdown characters so that they don't get in for free.

Amen.

The few times when I use Smoke, I feel as though something about the character is missing, and it is definitely a traditional fireball. I feel like Smoke cannot zone opponents whatsoever. Smoke Bomb catches opponents now and then but certainly not reliably. Characters with fast dashes (i.e., Cyber Sub Zero, Sektor, etc.) easily overcome Smoke Bombs. The best thing about the Smoke Bomb is that Nightwolf can neither reflect nor absorb it. I think NRS was afraid to give him a formidable projectile because of Shake and Teleport Punch. I like the Smoke Teleport, the Teleport Punch, the Shake, 3,d+1,2, d+1, etc. but he just feels like an incomplete character to me without a traditional projectile.

By the way, can he even punish special moves like Cyber Sub Zero's dive kick (when done low to the ground) and Ermac's TKP?

 

[Zebster]

Which is still noticeably less than normal. That's been my point. Yes, it's a combo, but it's not optimal damage.

Thing is though, you can't always rely on optimal damage combos, and you certainly don't see tournament players doing only optimal damage combos. Having more ways to combo into Smoke bomb that are viable is never a bad thing. Besides, the 2 is one of his fastest normals.

Also, have you tried using 2,1,4 xx smoke bomb as an anti air? It works pretty well, and leads to a combo worth 36% or more damage (more if you use meter). Not far from his bnb, and it's easy to land the smoke bomb since you can delay it depending on how high your opponent was when you hit them. You should try it out.

Spoiler

The 2,1,4 at the beginning should whiff the 1, but if you do it too low the 1 will hit. It'll still combo into smoke bomb, but you may have to cut the combo short a hit or two because of the gravity. Still, it's only a few percent off of an anti air, not bad.

 

[THTB]

Yeah, I actually noticed that as well. Dunno how consistently it works, but it's there.

And yeah, for the particular situations where things are jab punishable, that is where it shines. You don't have to deal absolute max damage in every situation for it to be worthwhile. Punishes are going to be very situational...not everything nets full damage. And I just explained a perfectly viable situation to use invisibility where it definitely could be place above every other move he has. There's also after an air throw. Wherever you can do it without being smacked for attempting it is a perfect situation.

Smoke bomb isn't really a keepaway projectile...it's moreso an anti-projectile projectile. Its functionality can sorta be comparable to how Viper uses seismo to counter projectiles. That's the thing about Smoke's entire special moveset...it's not geared towards such traditional means as zoning or rushdown. Pretty much his design is that he works well against keepaway characters, but the ones he struggles with are characters who don't really keepaway. It's really a design thing rather than being incomplete.

As far as punishing those particular moves, it wouldn't surprise me if he couldn't.

 

[ApocaLips]

And yeah, for the particular situations where things are jab punishable, that is where it shines. You don't have to deal absolute max damage in every situation for it to be worthwhile. Punishes are going to be very situational...not everything nets full damage. And I just explained a perfectly viable situation to use invisibility where it definitely could be place above every other move he has. There's also after an air throw. Wherever you can do it without being smacked for attempting it is a perfect situation.

Again, not saying it's bad. Just saying that it's known and that the times where you have to use it are relatively rare.

Smoke bomb isn't really a keepaway projectile...it's moreso an anti-projectile projectile. Its functionality can sorta be comparable to how Viper uses seismo to counter projectiles. That's the thing about Smoke's entire special moveset...it's not geared towards such traditional means as zoning or rushdown. Pretty much his design is that he works well against keepaway characters, but the ones he struggles with are characters who don't really keepaway. It's really a design thing rather than being incomplete.

Again, we already know this. We know smoke bomb trades in his favor with every projectile (deals 12% if you let them drop, which will happen on a trade). We also know that it isn't a pressure tool. There are pages and pages in this very thread of people complaining about that (no chip, easy to get around), and my response is usually that this is done on purpose. I'm not saying change the angle of the bomb or make it do chip. I know that shouldn't happen. I'm saying adding a really crappy normal projectile would help him put some sort of pressure against characters like kung lao and not let them get in scott free whenever they want to. It wouldn't affect matchups vs zoning characters because that projectile would just lose to whatever they try. But at least it would be something to help those really rough matchups.

I realize it's not in smoke's design to play true keepaway. But it would certainly help a ton against characters he has a hard time against without making matchups vs zoners even more lopsided.

 

[THTB]

A crappy projectile isn't gonna help if it's crappy...if it's crappy it's just another useless move there. It won't stop any characters in any way...it'll just be there.

Also, why do you change your reasonings against using invisibility after I highlight different stuff like when it can be used? Before it was because he has more dependable options, but now it's because the situations are rare...wtf? Either way, it's a situation you can use it, and again, there's air throw, which you should be landing often enough.

 

[cabibi]

Again, not saying it's bad. Just saying that it's known and that the times where you have to use it are relatively rare.



Again, we already know this. We know smoke bomb trades in his favor with every projectile (deals 12% if you let them drop, which will happen on a trade). We also know that it isn't a pressure tool. There are pages and pages in this very thread of people complaining about that (no chip, easy to get around), and my response is usually that this is done on purpose. I'm not saying change the angle of the bomb or make it do chip. I know that shouldn't happen. I'm saying adding a really crappy normal projectile would help him put some sort of pressure against characters like kung lao and not let them get in scott free whenever they want to. It wouldn't affect matchups vs zoning characters because that projectile would just lose to whatever they try. But at least it would be something to help those really rough matchups.

I realize it's not in smoke's design to play true keepaway. But it would certainly help a ton against characters he has a hard time against without making matchups vs zoners even more lopsided.

I'd rather have the smoke bomb hit low than have a normal projectile. I know he's not a mixup character but god would it help against rushdown characters.

 

[THTB]

A low-hitting smoke bomb would give him a good mixup tool alongside forcing crouching alongside dashblocks.

 

[Kakita Jamie]

I'd rather have the smoke bomb hit low than have a normal projectile. I know he's not a mixup character but god would it help against rushdown characters.

That would be sweet or my personal thought was that Smoke Bomb would chip. It's not like you can lock someone in block stun with Smoke Bomb anyway like normal projectiles. It also keeps people from turtling the other side of the screen when they have lead against smoke.

 

[cabibi]

A low-hitting smoke bomb would give him a good mixup tool alongside forcing crouching alongside dashblocks.

exactly. I just don't see why this is an issue. All zoners have basic mixup tools... they're not as many as rushdown chars... but they at least have one.. I don't see the issue with giving smoke at least 1. He's so disadvantaged when it comes to rushdown chars as it is right now.