Match-up Discussion The Smoke MU

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

didnt say im on toms lvl, i said i actually play this matchup offline and dont just type what i see online.

yes, it requires 2 bars, he can do it though, thats the point.

yes there are, if were gonna discuss how the MATCHUP is and not how the PLAYERS are then you can go ahead and say its 7 3 reset smoke and 6,5-3,5 not 100% reset landing smoke 6-4 regular smoke

You gotta let the online thing go
My sparring partner lands the reset plenty.

But I don't play the lame ass style that everyone is used to..... and I get better results in some MU's and worse in others. I've never had a true problem bullying smoke with 21 and both enders or into a throw. I've never really had a problem reading him in the corner. Sure i'll guess wrong.... but unless he bursn meter for exSmoke towards (which is punishable)... then you can contain him just like anyone else...

Smokes reads are simply more rewarding than SZ's. *shrug*

 

[FrothyOmen]

qwark gtfo and learn how to play this MU

did you honestly say that smokes don't use d1sb? You're playing the wrong smokes, and you're not playing the MU right to begin with if you honestly truly believe that.

 

[RYX]

Just gonna say that risk reward matters a lot in match ups. It's the biggest reason characters like Noob are shit.

If we're ignoring that he can do 100% with meter then I guess cyrax isn't broken because he relies on the same situation.

 

[Qwark28]

You gotta let the online thing go
My sparring partner lands the reset plenty.

But I don't play the lame ass style that everyone is used to..... and I get better results in some MU's and worse in others. I've never had a true problem bullying smoke with 21 and both enders or into a throw. I've never really had a problem reading him in the corner. Sure i'll guess wrong.... but unless he bursn meter for exSmoke towards (which is punishable)... then you can contain him just like anyone else...

Smokes reads are simply more rewarding than SZ's. *shrug*

but does he land it always? this is about use of tools, not occasional or even 90% use, 100% use of tools.

thats the ticket, "reading", man, youre looking at the easiest parts of the matchup, thats why you think its 6 4

21 is no pressure, if youre getting results with mostly "bullying" him with 21 pressure then your partner cant adapt as well as you.

 

[Qwark28]

qwark gtfo and learn how to play this MU

did you honestly say that smokes don't use d1sb? You're playing the wrong smokes, and you're not playing the MU right to begin with if you honestly truly believe that.

i said no good smoke will d1 sb in the SUBZERO matchup

this is about the sub matchup right?

D1 sb is used to catch ppl mashing buttons, sub smoke matchup isnt a particularly rushdown poke-react-counter-pressure heavy matchup.

 

[Knoterror]

I assume you mean slide or throw for the untechable knockdown. Either way, any character can just lay grounded to avoid any mixup after this and roll back. There is no guess to be made.

Really? I thought the whole point of an untechable knockdown is that you couldn't roll. Mind = blown.

 

[Qwark28]

Really? I thought the whole point of an untechable knockdown is that you couldn't roll. Mind = blown.

not sure but i think you can roll if the dude who knocked you down does a normal or jump, im 100% sure about the jumping part.

 

[FrothyOmen]

Untechable means you can't roll immediately... but if you lay grounded and don't get OTG'd you can do a delayed tech roll.

 

[Knoterror]

Ah cool. Not sure why I never noticed that were possible. If I don't roll immediately I just wakeup or block. I don't do a whole lot of layin' down.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

but does he land it always? this is about use of tools, not occasional or even 90% use, 100% use of tools.

thats the ticket, "reading", man, youre looking at the easiest parts of the matchup, thats why you think its 6 4

21 is no pressure, if youre getting results with mostly "bullying" him with 21 pressure then your partner cant adapt as well as you.

I owe STB Sgt Reed a dollar... but I can not let this go

you just said that making reads is the EASIEST part of this MU.
That in itself pretty much says it all.

 

[Qwark28]

I owe STB Sgt Reed a dollar... but I can not let this go

you just said that making reads is the EASIEST part of this MU.
That in itself pretty much says it all.

i meant that in the way that its easy to read smoke in the corner when hes contained, youre looking at the good part of the matchup which is the corner

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

1. Every smoke I have ever played has used d1 sb at some point in the match, if not multiple times...
2. This match is definitely in smokes favor bc its hard for sub to catch him.

 

[Knoterror]

Seriously, let's just go back to a point that Charlie made earlier. Kung Lao's a 7-3. Is fighting Smoke as challenging as Kung Lao? In my experience, no, it's not. Not by a mile. By extension, how can this MU be a 7-3 or higher?

 

[FrothyOmen]

this match is definitely hard for smoke bc its hard for smoke to catch sub.

This match is fair as fuck, whoever gets the life lead turtles the shit out of the other. Both characters have trouble opening the other one up. Smoke gets resets and SZ gets ridiculous corner pressure. Seems fair to me

 

[xInfra Deadx]

...and I thought Death was the worst downplayer...

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

this match is definitely hard for smoke bc its hard for smoke to catch sub.

This match is fair as fuck, whoever gets the life lead turtles the shit out of the other. Both characters have trouble opening the other one up. Smoke gets resets and SZ gets ridiculous corner pressure. Seems fair to me

We need the matchup police...

 

[Death]

...and I thought Death was the worst downplayer...

The funny thing is that I am not even a downplayer at all. My Sonya total numbers are actually the highest over any sonya main.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

this match is definitely hard for smoke bc its hard for smoke to catch sub.

This match is fair as fuck, whoever gets the life lead turtles the shit out of the other. Both characters have trouble opening the other one up. Smoke gets resets and SZ gets ridiculous corner pressure. Seems fair to me

lol
I don't think is totally off base really.

Its just... Smoke reads and punishes get him 70% for a bar

SZ's gets him like 30%

That is truly the only REAL difference in tools.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

Seriously, let's just go back to a point that Charlie made earlier. Kung Lao's a 7-3. Is fighting Smoke as challenging as Kung Lao? In my experience, no, it's not. Not by a mile. By extension, how can this MU be a 7-3 or higher?

you know a way to a girls heart.

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

lol
I don't think is totally off base really.

Its just... Smoke reads and punishes get him 70% for a bar

SZ's gets him like 30%

That is truly the only REAL difference in tools.

You also can't ice blast or clone in this match... unless you're throwing out ex freeze to catch a smoke away. And you're spending a bar for 32% ... and like you said he's gonna get TONS of damage for a single bar.

Easily favors smoke.

 

[HD Smoke]

It's 6-4 Smoke, IMO close 5-5. I really don't think it's higher than 6-4.

My thoughts:

Sub's options are very limited midscreen, but he can hang. No iceballs or naked clones... but that goes the other way too. If you're not throwing out clones or iceballs, Smoke is unsure what to do. He has to get in, and trying to get in on Sub is scary. Since 2 is fast and hits mid, Smoke Toward, D4's and whiffed air teleports are all HUGE risks for Smoke in this MU. He wants you to be a naked cloner so he can just Smoke Away and throw SB's. Just be patient, Smoke will come to you. Be ready.

Couple of other notes. D4 Smoke on untechable knockdown and there's pretty much nothing he can do except EX Smoke Away, from my experience. Just D4 and pay attention. Smoke Toward can still be 212'd. Smoke Away can be D4~Slide'd on a read midscreen. Teleport whiffs and I believe you're at advantage. EX Tele you have enough time to see he did EX and block. Shake is hit.

Also, Ice Beam beats Smoke Away, so you can make a read if he has a pattern of using it.

Smoke loses in the corner, and if he's just Smoke Away'ing, he'll put himself there. Look for him to try and switch sides once he gets close.

Smartest post ive seen all day. Its porbably 6-4 in Smokes favor at the highest level but there is def a lot of options for Sub Zero....some Smokes can be annoying and yes his resets are hell for a too agressive Subby but Subs 2 and d4 can be a serious problem for Smoke just like Sub Zero struggles with Smokebomb and Smoke away. Honestly id say its 5.5-4.5 Smoke. I started this thread because my mind is blown when people say its 7-3 Smoke. Its not downplaying its being real. Tom Bradys style of Sub gets blown up in this MU.....Denzels style is where Sub Zero does well against Smoke. (Both styles are great just saying you gotta play this MU like @Denzell does)

 

[HD Smoke]

The funny thing is that I am not even a downplayer at all. My Sonya total numbers are actually the highest over any sonya main.

Death you try to say Smoke and Sonya is 6-4 Sonya.....that is downplaying lol that MU is 7-3 Sonya.....all Smokes are free to Sonya LBSH

 

[Death]

Death you try to say Smoke and Sonya is 6-4 Sonya.....that is downplaying lol that MU is 7-3 Sonya.....all Smokes are free to Sonya LBSH

its 6-4. I just know the MU lol Give me my props dammit!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[HD Smoke]

^thank you, finally somebody that actually understands this MU

See we agree on some MU's....everyone thinks im downplaying when i say honest MU's but this is def a fair fight. If you say one negative thing about a character that has 70% resets people think you murdered a village or something.

 

[HD Smoke]

its 6-4. I just know the MU lol Give me my props dammit!!!!!!!!!!!

all im saying is i prefer fighting Lao and Kabal over a beast Sonya.....and those are 7-3 . Youve beaten CDjr and XSmokeX so your props are right here buddy #props now just blow up Wafflez and than you get more props and have to admit its 7-3 Sonya LMAO.
Military Big Boob Blonde > Grey Flowing Hair Smoke Demon