What's new

Match-up Discussion The Smoke MU

HD Smoke

Noob
Just want to hear the top subs that have played this MU. Lots of Smoke players think this is 7-3 or 6-4 Smoke but ive watched Denzel Terry run through all Smokes he has played. Denzel if you see this can you respond with your thoughts on this MU. Ive played lion heart online before and we went back n fourth and he didnt struggle at all. I personally think this could be 5-5 like cdjr has said before and others. Mainly its considered 7-3 Smoke now because Brady said it after playing tommy in a first to 5 but Sub Zero holds his own here.
 

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
Just want to hear the top subs that have played this MU. Lots of Smoke players think this is 7-3 or 6-4 Smoke but ive watched Denzel Terry run through all Smokes he has played. Denzel if you see this can you respond with your thoughts on this MU. Ive played lion heart online before and we went back n fourth and he didnt struggle at all. I personally think this could be 5-5 like cdjr has said before and others. Mainly its considered 7-3 Smoke now because Brady said it after playing tommy in a first to 5 but Sub Zero holds his own here.
just to be perfectly clear

no one cares.
 

Glass Sword

Nobody
Premium Supporter
It is 6-4 Smoke has superior keep away and damage. Once Sub is in however he has a lot of power though since 2 hits Smoke crouching. The stage is important too since a longer stage really matters in this matchup.
The reason Denzell beats all Smokes is not because the match up is even it is because Denzell is good.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
It is 6-4 Smoke has superior keep away and damage. Once Sub is in however he has a lot of power though since 2 hits Smoke crouching. The stage is important too since a longer stage really matters in this matchup.
The reason Denzell beats all Smokes is not because the match up is even it is because Denzell is good.
its 7 3
 

xQUANTUMx

Twitter: @xxQUANTUM
Premium Supporter
Royal Contributor
Ghostface777o0o tell this man how much this blows for sub....one person has to work much much harder than the other

sub has to work his ass off
 

Gh0sty

ばかみたいに無料
Ghostface777o0o tell this man how much this blows for sub....one person has to work much much harder than the other

sub has to work his ass off
Just like every MU, Sub is working harder than his opponent to stay alive. Sub will have a hard time controlling space and using set ups that usually work for other MU's. Smoke wins up close and at full screen. It's at least 6-4 if not 7-3 IMO.


KILLA_xGHOST
 

Knoterror

Premium
Premium Supporter
It's 6-4 Smoke, IMO close 5-5. I really don't think it's higher than 6-4.

My thoughts:

Sub's options are very limited midscreen, but he can hang. No iceballs or naked clones... but that goes the other way too. If you're not throwing out clones or iceballs, Smoke is unsure what to do. He has to get in, and trying to get in on Sub is scary. Since 2 is fast and hits mid, Smoke Toward, D4's and whiffed air teleports are all HUGE risks for Smoke in this MU. He wants you to be a naked cloner so he can just Smoke Away and throw SB's. Just be patient, Smoke will come to you. Be ready.

Couple of other notes. D4 Smoke on untechable knockdown and there's pretty much nothing he can do except EX Smoke Away, from my experience. Just D4 and pay attention. Smoke Toward can still be 212'd. Smoke Away can be D4~Slide'd on a read midscreen. Teleport whiffs and I believe you're at advantage. EX Tele you have enough time to see he did EX and block. Shake is hit.

Also, Ice Beam beats Smoke Away, so you can make a read if he has a pattern of using it.

Smoke loses in the corner, and if he's just Smoke Away'ing, he'll put himself there. Look for him to try and switch sides once he gets close.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
he can block the D4 and D3 you.

youre wasting meter in order to punish him, all he needs is one smoke bomb and that meter is gone

smoke doesnt have to get in unless you have a healthy lifelead, even then, he has better rushdown strings than you and if he catches you once its game over

so because you have some risky ass and some situational options that barely contain him its only 6-4? HELL NAW
 

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
he can block the D4 and D3 you.

youre wasting meter in order to punish him, all he needs is one smoke bomb and that meter is gone

smoke doesnt have to get in unless you have a healthy lifelead, even then, he has better rushdown strings than you and if he catches you once its game over

so because you have some risky ass and some situational options that barely contain him its only 6-4? HELL NAW
he can't interrupt d4~clone.

Smoke can't hurt you unless he actually touches you.
Eventually he has to come in and do something.

His strings are no better than SZ's.... fastest starter is a true high and 9 frames. Nothing leaves him at advantage. You can walk away from d1~SB and punish (goes inbetween legs).

He has to make good reads as well. Both characters can kind of bully the other.... but nothing like a pure bully. SZ has a slight edge in the corner. And most of the match is played there due to smokes corner carries and pure turtle ness.

I've personally never thought this MU was really that bad. Maybe in a long set with someone who hits reset 100% of the time it can be frustrating... but... on the levels of Kung Lao and Kitana? No way.
 

xQUANTUMx

Twitter: @xxQUANTUM
Premium Supporter
Royal Contributor
Ya I find this to be a very manageable 7-3 even if that is what it is. Playing kitana is far far worse for the same numeric value....
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
he can't interrupt d4~clone.

Smoke can't hurt you unless he actually touches you.
Eventually he has to come in and do something.

His strings are no better than SZ's.... fastest starter is a true high and 9 frames. Nothing leaves him at advantage. You can walk away from d1~SB and punish (goes inbetween legs).

He has to make good reads as well. Both characters can kind of bully the other.... but nothing like a pure bully. SZ has a slight edge in the corner. And most of the match is played there due to smokes corner carries and pure turtle ness.

I've personally never thought this MU was really that bad. Maybe in a long set with someone who hits reset 100% of the time it can be frustrating... but... on the levels of Kung Lao and Kitana? No way.
no smoke does D1 sb, punishable with 22.

SZ does not bully smoke except in the corner

smoke has HUGE comeback potential while subzero as usual gains his damage bit by bit, it takes lotsa mistakes from smoke, one mistake from sub

you think kitanas keepaway is bad? she gets 50% from a jip, smoke gets full life.

smoke builds meter whenever and however he wants, what can you do midscreen? look for a bomb to punish, what cant you do? pretty much everything but fish for a mistake and punish for some damage and a blockstring thats gonna get you OUT

what can he do? fish for ONE mistake and kill you, limit most of your tools, force you to spend bars to punish him for 27% and get out again in a amtchup where METER is LIFE and youre telling me its 6 4 because he has to endure some shitty ass D4 pressure which can be easily blocked?

vs a smoke with 100% reset landing this matchup is pure HELL.
 

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
no smoke does D1 sb, punishable with 22.

SZ does not bully smoke except in the corner

smoke has HUGE comeback potential while subzero as usual gains his damage bit by bit, it takes lotsa mistakes from smoke, one mistake from sub

you think kitanas keepaway is bad? she gets 50% from a jip, smoke gets full life.

smoke builds meter whenever and however he wants, what can you do midscreen? look for a bomb to punish, what cant you do? pretty much everything but fish for a mistake and punish for some damage and a blockstring thats gonna get you OUT

what can he do? fish for ONE mistake and kill you, limit most of your tools, force you to spend bars to punish him for 27% and get out again in a amtchup where METER is LIFE and youre telling me its 6 4 because he has to endure some shitty ass D4 pressure which can be easily blocked?

vs a smoke with 100% reset landing this matchup is pure HELL.
well yeah if you simply theory craft the entire matchup.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
you have one char whose very limited in fear of damage and relies on meter heavily to break

you have another who doesnt fear any sub par damage and pressure and can punish each mistake for hella HP while affording to make many mistakes himself along with being free to use 90% of his tools.

LBSH here, smoke bomb on hit= 100%

smoke bomb on a safe punish on reaction= 9% and untechable knockdown

and thats just from smoke bomb, no need to mention superior keepaway, better advancing strings, damage, footsies, etc.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
well yeah if you simply theory craft the entire matchup.
who is theory crafting? you keep throwing around that im breaking down matchups based on "theory" when ive both played them and watched others play them.

please do mention your offline experience with top lvl players who land the reset flawlessly.
 

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
you have one char whose very limited in fear of damage and relies on meter heavily to break

you have another who doesnt fear any sub par damage and pressure and can punish each mistake for hella HP while affording to make many mistakes himself along with being free to use 90% of his tools.

LBSH here, smoke bomb on hit= 100%

smoke bomb on a safe punish on reaction= 9% and untechable knockdown

and thats just from smoke bomb, no need to mention superior keepaway, better advancing strings, damage, footsies, etc.
SB is only 100% in unique situations.

he has to have 2 do a double reset and you can't have breaker.

So the entire thing about dying in one jip is just obnoxious.

I'm sorry my credentials don't match up with ...... Tom Brady's..... but yours don't either... so you can continue to toss that out willy nilly, but it will never phase what I say. There isn't a smoke player around that can land the reset 100% of the time...
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
SB is only 100% in unique situations.

he has to have 2 do a double reset and you can't have breaker.

So the entire thing about dying in one jip is just obnoxious.

I'm sorry my credentials don't match up with ...... Tom Brady's..... but yours don't either... so you can continue to toss that out willy nilly, but it will never phase what I say. There isn't a smoke player around that can land the reset 100% of the time...
didnt say im on toms lvl, i said i actually play this matchup offline and dont just type what i see online.

yes, it requires 2 bars, he can do it though, thats the point.

yes there are, if were gonna discuss how the MATCHUP is and not how the PLAYERS are then you can go ahead and say its 7 3 reset smoke and 6,5-3,5 not 100% reset landing smoke 6-4 regular smoke
 

Dizzy

False Information Police Officer
Premium Supporter
NetherRealm Studios
Couple of other notes. D4 Smoke on untechable knockdown and there's pretty much nothing he can do except EX Smoke Away, from my experience. Just D4 and pay attention. Smoke Toward can still be 212'd. Smoke Away can be D4~Slide'd on a read midscreen. Teleport whiffs and I believe you're at advantage. EX Tele you have enough time to see he did EX and block. Shake is hit.
I assume you mean slide or throw for the untechable knockdown. Either way, any character can just lay grounded to avoid any mixup after this and roll back. There is no guess to be made.