Fighter Stance - it affects gameplay. Lets come up with a list.

[sebiel]

Like I posted on the video comments, I learned this through someone else writing about it in another thread. He didn't write about where it came from, so I didn't even know this thread or that video existed. That's the nature of the internet, right?

I am much more concerned with giving information to the community than glorifying the people that came up with it. If I had credited MY source for this (Page- from Penny-Arcade) then I would be again shitted on for not crediting the wrong person, and he'd get shitted on for not crediting it where he posted. The fact of the matter is, I've been discussing gameplay mechanics on video for over 2 years over more than 1400 videos, and this suddenly becoming a problem is confusing to me.

The best part of the shit I'm catching for this is that I never claimed to have discovered this. I did call the video set "Seb's MK9 Lab Notes" not meaning that I discovered any of that shit, but it was just the things that I personally thought were interesting to note while learning the game. I never claimed to discover any of the things in those vids, which is meaningful considering that in my Sektor vids, I DID claim to have discovered my own shit. I understand the difference is difficult to see, which is why I renamed the vids.

Finally, if there is a real problem with me and anyone wants to actually deal with me, then contact me directly rather than posting comments for everyone to see (and for myself to have a higher chance to see). By trying to cause a shitstorm in comments, it looks a lot more like you're just trying to publicly flog me and turn people against me rather than to actually do anything for the community. That video's overall goals were to give more information to the community and to help popularize this game; whereas those comments' goals seemed to be to shit on community members. I imagine that this might not have been your intention-- maybe you just didn't feel like researching a better way to contact me (the same way I didn't hound down Page- to research where HE found the stance change information from).

Rikana: I'm sorry that I did not know that you discovered this. If it is important to you that your name be attached to this gameplay mechanic, then let me know via PM.

ADG / Wonder_Chef: I'm sorry that I accidentally copied your video. If you think it is beneficial to the community for me to remove the video, let me know via PM.

 

[page]

I'm sure Seb will say it himself, but the thing with the video was a simple misunderstanding. Nobody is trying to steal credit from anyone else.

As has been reported in the Sheeva forum, she has at least 2 combos (pretty much her 2 most damaging mid-screen combos) that are stance dependant as well. Her b2, 1+2, bf3 and her db3, b2, 1+2, bf3 both need her opponent in the opposite stance from her to work (unless she's behind them, then it's reversed, or it's a Sheeva mirror match).

Although Sheeva mirrors aren't affected by her stance specific combos, Kung Lao mirrors are affected. So, it's not even consistently inconsistent.

Speak of the devil. Guess I'm too late.

 

[MKF30]

It doesn't effect gameplay at least to me, my combos with my characters still work regardless of stance.

 

[Ribx]

Edit: Might as well PM.

 

[rikana]

@Sebiel: I don't mind. Don't worry about it. ADG, on the other hand, I have no idea what he thinks of it.

@page: Thanks for the info. I'll post it on the OP.

@Ribx: Thank you for going out of your way and even possibly baiting a flame war to have us credited. Sorry about the negative comments you may get because of that. I appreciate your effort.

 

[Ribx]

@Sebiel: I don't mind. Don't worry about it. ADG, on the other hand, I have no idea what he thinks of it.

@page: Thanks for the info. I'll post it on the OP.

@Ribx: Thank you for going out of your way and even possibly baiting a flame war to have us credited. Sorry about the negative comments you may get because of that. I appreciate your effort.

No problem.

I didn't bait a flamewar. I asked for decency. Then I got censored (my reply to him got removed by himself), and insulted.

Internet in a nutshell.

 

[Lucky Day]

Pretentious douchebaggery will triumph.

Stay on the topic in the article or you can start getting infracted.

Every single post leading up to this with trying to out him as a thief and him responding could have been avoided with the same result by either pm'ing Seb or by contacting the original owner of the video.

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

@Sebiel: I don't mind. Don't worry about it. ADG, on the other hand, I have no idea what he thinks of it.

"They" ADG is me and REL.

ADG / Wonder_Chef: I'm sorry that I accidentally copied your video. If you think it is beneficial to the community for me to remove the video, let me know via PM.

No problem. Mine was done in sort of a rush anyway.

 

[IronMan42]

i don't think this is a glitch, it's a feature. Seriously though if you notice kung lao's 24 spin, he changes stance naturally after 4 meaning that if you start in same stance as opponent both right lead (a good way to refer to what stance they are in is right or left lead meaning which foot is forward) his feat are actually overlapping opponents. So start both in right lead, after 4 kung switches to left lead but because opponent is still in right lead kung can't be as close without standing on opponents foot, so he is naturally farther away meaning he wiffs his spin.

Edit: after watching that video a couple more times it looks like you get just as close no matter what foot lead you and your opponent are in.

 

[Action Kungfu]

VF uses Open and Closed stance as the terms.

Closed stance is basically when both character's chests are facing each other, meaning player 1's back is to the screen(or in view), player 2's chest is to the screen(or in view), or vice versa for both(p1 chest to screen, p2's back to screen).

Open stance is when both characters are facing the exact same way in relation to the screen. Meaning player 1's back is to the screen, player 2's back is to the screen, or vice versa for both.

 

[SZSR]

You can add another combo to the list, this time for Johnny Cage:
The combo

Jump Punch, f+, :f+, dash, , Flip Kick

does 40% damage when Johnny Cage starts his combo with his chest and his opponent's chest are both facing the screen and 38% when he starts his combo with his back toward the screen and the opponent's chest is toward the screen.

I don't have a video-capturing device so could someone test this for me and post proof?

 

[IronMan42]

VF uses Open and Closed stance as the terms.

Closed stance is basically when both character's chests are facing each other, meaning player 1's back is to the screen(or in view), player 2's chest is to the screen(or in view), or vice versa for both(p1 chest to screen, p2's back to screen).

Open stance is when both characters are facing the exact same way in relation to the screen. Meaning player 1's back is to the screen, player 2's back is to the screen, or vice versa for both.

Ah good i knew there was proper terminology somewhere for that, thanks!

 

[Check]

This isnt new at all. Its been in the game since MKDA. MK9 is a hybrid of that engine. All the hardest combos in those games required you to stand a certain way as well as your opponent. Some combos only work while standing on one side as well. Li Mei 95% PC in MKA rings a bell.

The list is astronomical when it comes to this. In the 1000's for sure. I've watched it all.

And yes, there is also a point to it other than combos. Spacing and priority. You get a little extra reach when you are facing the opposite way as your opponent.

Anyways, you can add raiden 344~promove db1 to the list. It connects closer to the wall when youre facing back to cam and opponent chest to cam.

Scorpions jumpkick teleport stuff in the demo was also different. if you were facing opposite stance as opponent you had to dash in a little bit after the first teleport,

damage readout on raidens xray combos are also off. they register as 49% but do 52%

 

[rikana]

Updated the list. Let me know if there's anything I need to correct.

 

[SZSR]

Update:
For that same Johnny Cage combo, I discovered that if both characters have their backs toward the screen, the combo is 39%. So It is only 40% if both characters have their chests pointed toward the screen.

 

[MagiCurtains]

Update:
For that same Johnny Cage combo, I discovered that if both characters have their backs toward the screen, the combo is 39%. So It is only 40% if both characters have their chests pointed toward the screen.

I'm not sure if this is true. I'm doing this in the corner and I think the damage is totally dependent on the height. E Flip kick gets more damage at certain positions(the very last 3 of 4 hits, maybe some whiff?) I suppose. I've gotten 40% when both have the back towards the screen and when both have their chests pointed towards the screen.

 

[SZSR]

I'm not sure if this is true. I'm doing this in the corner and I think the damage is totally dependent on the height. E Flip kick gets more damage at certain positions(the very last 3 of 4 hits, maybe some whiff?) I suppose. I've gotten 40% when both have the back towards the screen and when both have their chests pointed towards the screen.

Oh, I haven't had that consistency with backs toward the screen but i'll double check using a wall then.

 

[evansgambit]

After what I'm hearing from the above threads. Fighting stance giving a 2-3% difference in damage seems hardley worth the effort to initiate in combat. Yeah it could bump combos from 32% to 34%, 49% to 51% reducing the number of mistakes from your opponent can make.

Yet I just find it more pausible that its an unfishined fighting mechanism. Kind of sloppy for the MK team to leave rembrants of it in this game. Also not really explaining Flip Stance in the in game tutorial. Maybe they were really pressed for time.

I hope i'm proven wrong, and one of you guys finds something grounbreaking. This is one of those questions someone in Mortal's higher up has got to answer. The fans deserve to know.

Just out of curosity, how do you think that 2-3% damage difference is explained? The character uses their more dominant hand?

 

[Spectre General]

So far I have only noticed stuff like this on moves where your character's stance changes in the process of doing the move. Almost like evansgambit said, it was a mechanic they were toying with, but forgot to take out, so some things are still affected by it.

 

[page]

I uploaded a video showing Sheeva's stance specific combos, and she also has character specific combos. About half of it is relevant to this thread, so I may as well share.

 

[GNG Iniquity]

I uploaded a video showing Sheeva's stance specific combos, and she also has character specific combos. About half of it is relevant to this thread, so I may as well share.

[video=youtube;o9sfopbPSDE]http://www.youtube.com
/watch?v=o9sfopbPSDE[/video]

Wow...NRS should probably fix that. That's pretty bad. I've yet to see a Sheeva player in a tournament, but that could certainly lose them the match. :taz:

 

[NapkinSchematic]

Okay, at the expense of coming off like a jerk, let's first get some terminology out of the way and get us off on the right foot before things get stupid.

First of all, this in all reality, is a feature, whether it was intended or not, and frankly should NOT be patched.

This phenomenon is all a huge part of fighting and intensely important to the correct spacing and ranging of striking/grappling techniques in real fighting.

This goes back to Gladiator days and concerns itself with the inclusion of left handed fighters in fighting/weapon battles. A right handed combatant is considered "orthodox", in all fighting/weapon combat arts. A left handed fighter is of course "unorthodox". This creates a situation because left handed fighters, south paws, create what we members of the fancy call an "unmatched pair". (normal right handed combatants squaring off of course create a "matched pair") Unorthodox fighters ruin everything, (or add variety in some opinions) in pretty much all fighting and weapon arts , simply because of the fact that a right handed fighter trains to fight other right handed fighters, (because a much smaller percentage of the population is left handed, anywhere from 6-15 percent (counting women)) that being said, a fighter trains to move one direction more often, strike/swing/whatever for the purpose of hitting an opponent who is a specific distance away or should be capable of being struck given a wpecific set of circumstances.

That being said, left handed fighters break this completely by creating that "unmatched pair" or what is called an "open stance". (bear with me)
an open stance messes everything up because footwork has to change and techniques are spaced completely differently.

example..

Closed Stance

------left-----right
----O--------O-----
right-----left

Here you have two fighters (viewed from above) face to face in a fighting stance. Both are right handed making a matched pair. The fighter on the left side is right handed, so obviously he leads with his left (power hand to the back), and the fighter on the right is the same. When you have a matched pair, your lead hand, in this case, the left hand, attacks the right side of the opponent, while your rear hand, in this case your right hand, attacks his left side. All your angles, foot work, combos, counter punching, head movement, swaying, ducking, etc. all counts on this foundation. It will completely dictate the pace of the fight, what techniques are used and where fighters move. (based on experience of course, an uneducated right handed fighter could step left as opposed to right and walk into straight rights all day, but an educated fighter will not allow that.) The closed stance is what you want, because unless you practice fighting lefties all the time, you are, NO MATTER WHAT, worse at fighting a left handed fighters, (as a majority of your opponents will be marched pairs) than right handed fighters. AND left handed fighters will ALWAYS know the match up better because, for the most part, they only fight right handed fighters.

Unmatched Pairs, or Open Stances, create a radically different fighting landscape which happens too few times in the course of a career to necessitate excessive counter strats for the majority of fighters.

A left handed fighter gets less fights, and if he is good, is ducked constantly, unless he holds a strap, in which case, a case specific strat is devised.

NOW

Open Stance

-----left-----right
----O--------O-----
right-----------left

or

Open Stance

left-----------right
----O--------O-----
----right----left


Here you have to examples of unmatched pairs. both fighters are face to face, but their power hands (again, rear hands) or on opposite sides, their stance creates a situation in which lead hand are stifled by lead hands, and rear hands are out of range ALL THE TIME. The only remedy is advanced foot work/angles which is BACKWARDS from EVERYTHING they have ever learned, or forcing a matched pair(closed stance) situation and changing their stance. Again, this would favor the left handed fighter ALL THE TIME, as he has all the experience fighting right handed fighters. (generally speaking) (keep in mind, 2 LEFT handed fighters are ALSO matched pairs, which is ALSO a nightmare because most likely neither of them has much experience fighting in a closed stance, as a majority of both their opponents would be right handed)

In the past, "shifting" was a much more common part of boxing/kungfu/thai boxing. Shifting was the act of shifting stances mid move/step, like our pal Kung Lau. Oddly enough it was more common amongst classic london prize/braughton era boxers and strong Chinese Boxers(kung fu was called boxing in china for a long time by the way) and a great deal of time went in to perfecting foot work for advancing into a beneficial stance/ distance while disallowing the opponent to that same freedom.

this is what VF was allowing us to do, control what stance we were in and focus on foot work. Open/closed stances are intermediate to advanced fighting concepts, and having it mean something in a 2d fighter would be awesome.

It should be kept. Want a fix? if you fall in your orthodox stance, you should stand up in orthodox stance, unless you are holding stance change. Make more moves auto shift, like (kung lau) make jump attacks retain or shift your stance in the air. a bp/fp/bk/fk should play their respective animations and make you land in a stance dictated by said move, so you can jump in AND control stance. Make more moves whiff in open stances. (this makes people have to look at their foot work. Seriously the concept is awesome.) finally, make more combos stance specific, ideally, the harder to execute/higher damaging ones.

Keep in mind that only specials can benefit from the distance created/closed by stance changes, as they are the only moves that will execute in place. all other normals will hit as they are intended to, as they come out exactly the same regardless of what stance you are in. (back punch is back punch regardless of your stance)

The only fix for this would be to have 2 different hit boxes for each character and have it change based on what stance you are in in relation to your opponent, or have the hit boxes for all normals change based on what stance your opponent is in. ( I hope this makes sense) as this would be the only way to create the perception of variable distance created by stance shifting.

just my 2 cents.

 

[YagamiFire]

Hey guys, first post here but I've been reading quite a bit...don't think anyone has mentioned this yet...

Stryker's b1, 2, 2 can't combo into his X-ray...unless you change stance. If you change stance it WILL combo. Try it out...my friend and I just found this and its REALLY strange huh? Especially considering Stryker doesn't really have many other ways into X-ray that I've found.

 

[Eight]

Cyrax's command grab's range changes depending on whether or not you're in the same stance as your opponent. Barely noticeable except at the max range of the move, but its there.

 

[Icecar]

Oh man.. Noob Saibot players are going to be zoning WITH stance awareness so you can't even get your full combos in.