Player Skill (Very Serious Discussion)

[Smarrgasm]

Oh hey its this thread again. Player+Character=SUM OF THEIR POWERS.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

Flagg

I think every FG and game for that matter is about 50% skill and 50% character tools

You've never played Tekken have you? You're either good, or you're not. NOTHING like MK.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

You've never played Tekken have you? You're either good, or your not. NOTHING like MK.

after you break the 10 year barrier of the 60 characters and their setups.

edit: I agree.... but man it just takes a lot of work to know strings

 

[Lulzlou]

If reo, curbo, etc was only winning because of kabal then I shouldn't even be playing this game.

Seriously like, I should have been winning since day one.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

after you break the 10 year barrier of the 60 characters and their setups.

edit: I agree.... but man it just takes a lot of work to know strings

Like, I think Fractured_Shadow said, equal skill setting.

I know players on Tekken that are pretty much equal skill to me, I'm good, but I'm not top level, I've never lost a game in tekken because of a move that my character just can't do shit about, or other bullshit like it.

Say I play against Pigs Kenshi with my Cage, say we're equal skill, he'll still dominate me because Cage is shit in that scenario.
Say Pig and I are equally skilled at Tekken, he plays a Heihachi and DJ team, while I play Kazamaz (Top 2 vs 2 low tiers), it doesnt mean that I have to sit there accept the ass rape. Everybody has options against EVERYBODY in Tekken, but not in MK. But Tekken is alot older, and Namco have had more experience making a tournament viable game.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

Like, I think Fractured_Shadow said, equal skill setting.

I know players on Tekken that are pretty much equal skill to me, I'm good, but I'm not top level, I've never lost a game in tekken because of a move that my character just can't do shit about, or other bullshit like it.

Say I play against Pigs Kenshi with my Cage, say we're equal skill, he'll still dominate me because Cage is shit in that scenario.
Say Pig and I are equally skilled at Tekken, he plays a Heihachi and DJ team, while I play Kazamaz (Top 2 vs 2 low tiers), it doesnt mean that I have to sit there accept the ass rape. Everybody has options against EVERYBODY in Tekken, but not in MK. But Tekken is alot older, and Namco have had more experience making a tournament viable game.

So would you argue against pig saying 50% player and 50% character in mk?

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

So would you argue against pig saying 50% player and 50% character in mk?

IDK about 50/50. But what I do know is that MK is all over the place, I think what makes it worse is that the game is too simple. If you give characters only a few unique options for their entire arsenal, you're bound to have another character along the line that will be able to completely crush it.

Tekken has some baseline things about it that make it balanced IMO:

- Jabs are all 10f
- Strings dont all naturally combo or launch
- If a move has one big upside, it also has a big downside

I think the majority of this game is down to the characters people play though, the depths of mind games in MK is so miniature compared to something like Tekken. Lets say you have 10 Kitana players, I can bet you that there wont be more than 4 or 5 legit playstyles amongst them. Go over to tekken, you could have 10 legit Asuka players that all play completely differently.

It cant be blamed on our players, just that our games mechanics are so shallow.

If you really wanna know if our community has good fighting game players, send us all out to other games that we can all agree are balanced and see how well the MK community compares to other communities.

This doesn't include players that have come from other communities to ours, like Slips, who we can clearly see is just a good FG player.

Put Pig, CDJr, REO, Curb etc into the Tekken community, they'll get destroyed, and I can almost gaurantee you that you won't see the sharp increase in their skills in that game like you saw in MK9, because the only things you can exploit in that game, is the other players mind, not the other players character, or your own character.

 

[trustinme]

Like, I think Fractured_Shadow said, equal skill setting.

I know players on Tekken that are pretty much equal skill to me, I'm good, but I'm not top level, I've never lost a game in tekken because of a move that my character just can't do shit about, or other bullshit like it.

Say I play against Pigs Kenshi with my Cage, say we're equal skill, he'll still dominate me because Cage is shit in that scenario.
Say Pig and I are equally skilled at Tekken, he plays a Heihachi and DJ team, while I play Kazamaz (Top 2 vs 2 low tiers), it doesnt mean that I have to sit there accept the ass rape. Everybody has options against EVERYBODY in Tekken, but not in MK. But Tekken is alot older, and Namco have had more experience making a tournament viable game.

agreed 100%. why bother creating characters that are completly useless? and then make characters like kenshi which have no thought behind them whatsoever? kenshi is one of the laziest character designs ive ever seen.

 

[ForeverKing]

Gross managed to place top 8 with sektor, but some players said "his sektor didn't look impressive at all"
Its that Gross fault? No, IMO if gross managed to get in top 8 is clearly because he played a lot better than the opponents he faced, its a fact.

Gross Sektor looked sick. Played him in casuals/money matches and I will tell you for sure that he is Sektor of the world at the moment. 99% of the people saying the above statement would probably lose to Gross Sektor, just sayin

 

[Badboy Takuma]

Gross Sektor looked sick. Played him in casuals/money matches and I will tell you for sure that he is Sektor of the world at the moment. 99% of the people saying the above statement would probably lose to Gross Sektor, just sayin

any videos?

 

[Metzos]

OMFG... OK let me spell it out for you guys.... As I have said maybe ten times now, I feel that it is an equal amount of player and character... no matter how great of a Johnny Cage player you are you will NEVER beat a Kabal OF EQUAL SKILL in a set.... EQUAL SKILL PEOPLE.... this is what you are failing to see.... if you are a great Cage then of course you will beat up on a scrubby Kenshi. So by your logic there should be tier lists by player not character lol...

Disagree. This is not guaranteed to happen, with some character exceptions ofc (see Jade for example), especially in MK9.

 

[Insuperable]

The prop fishing in this thread is too much! Eddy, what have you done?!

 

[YOMI Trepound380]

IDK about 50/50. But what I do know is that MK is all over the place, I think what makes it worse is that the game is too simple. If you give characters only a few unique options for their entire arsenal, you're bound to have another character along the line that will be able to completely crush it.

Tekken has some baseline things about it that make it balanced IMO:

- Jabs are all 10f
- Strings dont all naturally combo or launch
- If a move has one big upside, it also has a big downside

I think the majority of this game is down to the characters people play though, the depths of mind games in MK is so miniature compared to something like Tekken. Lets say you have 10 Kitana players, I can bet you that there wont be more than 4 or 5 legit playstyles amongst them. Go over to tekken, you could have 10 legit Asuka players that all play completely differently.

It cant be blamed on our players, just that our games mechanics are so shallow.

If you really wanna know if our community has good fighting game players, send us all out to other games that we can all agree are balanced and see how well the MK community compares to other communities.

This doesn't include players that have come from other communities to ours, like Slips, who we can clearly see is just a good FG player.

Put Pig, CDJr, REO, Curb etc into the Tekken community, they'll get destroyed, and I can almost gaurantee you that you won't see the sharp increase in their skills in that game like you saw in MK9, because the only things you can exploit in that game, is the other players mind, not the other players character, or your own character.

this 1000000000000% i was not gonna get into this but this quote practically says how i feel about this subject. mk has wat i like to call a controlled randomness when it comes to tiers and MU numbers. what other game has characters MUs determined by few moves? and i have a gripe with kenshi not cause of pig. it is because of one move he changes the flow of a match and it dictates what happens. am i saying everyone can win with it easy no, but can it cause a headache at the basic level? for some people yea. and that is why the whole kenshi has fundamentals argument spawned. this game imo is half and half cause the way characters were made.

 

[Eddy Wang]

The prop fishing in this thread is too much! Eddy, what have you done?!

i just pointed something i feel it is wrong, which is discredit of players sometimes.

the true point is on the question, to a what point of a match a tier list is considerable, skill player is taken in consideration, such as gimmicks and such.

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

I guess we're back in the prop fishing era lol

Im keeping it real

I use the #1 or #2 character in the game, Obviously I have an adv here but at least im able to utilize these advantages

where you at #lOOksForDeathsSonya?

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

IDK about 50/50. But what I do know is that MK is all over the place, I think what makes it worse is that the game is too simple. If you give characters only a few unique options for their entire arsenal, you're bound to have another character along the line that will be able to completely crush it.

Tekken has some baseline things about it that make it balanced IMO:

- Jabs are all 10f
- Strings dont all naturally combo or launch
- If a move has one big upside, it also has a big downside

I think the majority of this game is down to the characters people play though, the depths of mind games in MK is so miniature compared to something like Tekken. Lets say you have 10 Kitana players, I can bet you that there wont be more than 4 or 5 legit playstyles amongst them. Go over to tekken, you could have 10 legit Asuka players that all play completely differently.

It cant be blamed on our players, just that our games mechanics are so shallow.

If you really wanna know if our community has good fighting game players, send us all out to other games that we can all agree are balanced and see how well the MK community compares to other communities.

This doesn't include players that have come from other communities to ours, like Slips, who we can clearly see is just a good FG player.

Put Pig, CDJr, REO, Curb etc into the Tekken community, they'll get destroyed, and I can almost gaurantee you that you won't see the sharp increase in their skills in that game like you saw in MK9, because the only things you can exploit in that game, is the other players mind, not the other players character, or your own character.

All i know is when i see the word Tekken I fall asleep

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

I could do it, but whats the point in playing Kenshi, when every player that uses a character that gets owned by Kenshi, also plays Kabal or Lao?

This games become musical characters.

MK9s balance is pretty shocking.

When i make this statement about my kenshi assume i mean yours as well

 

[CrimsonShadow]

A F0xy Grampa -- I feel like you're getting towards the point, but we have to remember; Tekken is a very, very different type of game. Characters aren't teleporting all over, throwing spears, fireballs, dropping clones on the playing field, letting saws out at each other, or making claws come out of the ground. There is diversity but a lot of characters also have similar types of moves.

I think the key to balancing a game like MK is that it has to be done:

1) Patiently, which means that you have to wait for people to really explore matchups and tools, and ONLY correct as much as needed, rather than over correct. And-
2) Actively, which means that you will have to continue to tweak things over the lifetime of the game. You can't "set it and forget it" or someone will discover a tactic that gives a character a serious advantage over others.

With that said though.. Sometimes you wish people would just accept the fact for now that the balance is imperfect and just have fun and play the game.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

All i know is when i see the word Tekken I fall asleep

why?

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

why?

Do you like watching Apples grow?

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

Do you like watching Apples grow?

Well I mean..... you're not watching the game if you're playing...

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

Well I mean..... you're not watching the game if you're playing...

i dont like playing with apples nor watching them grow which is around the same level of excitement i get out watching or playing tekken

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

i dont like playing with apples nor watching them grow which is around the same level of excitement i get out watching or playing tekken

that is fair. moving on

 

[Seven]

It's as simple as this, the better the character you chose, the less work you need to do to perform well.

One example is when you're fighting Cyrax, you have to outplay him several times to win a game, where if he outplays you once (gets you in a net), it's an 80-100% combo.

In conclusion, if you chose a top character AND work very hard. The low tier fighter needs to work crazy ultra hard to beat you.

 

[Soul Bound X]

All i know is when i see the word Tekken I fall asleep

exactly this. tekken is balanced and techneically a really good fighting game, but theres no hype or excitement