Should Watching Tournament Streams cost $$$ on Twitch?

[Compbros]

-snip-

Seriously? That post is worthy of an insult? What can we do? It's advertised on all outlets for MK and anywhere a person interested in MK would go to. We tweet, retweet, post FB messages, what have you....What more can be done on our part to advertise MK to anyone that may be interested in MK? Offer me a suggestion before insulting me.

I literally don't understand your point in the second paragraph.

 

[FrothyOmen]

Then, again, no offense and I mean it, your opinion is pretty irrelevant here as the conversation doesn't apply to someone like you. This is like saying "I wouldn't pay a dime for a Romance movie when I can watch one on TV" then saying "I don't watch/like romance movies". Of course YOU wouldn't pay for the romance movie but fans of romance movies would.

None taken. I appreciate your posts since your'e one of the few people here capable of higher thought patterns and discussions. I'll never take offense to anything you say to me. However I do think that my opinion is relevant here. Let's say that I'm an outsider who has never seen a romance movie before. My friend says "hey, if you pay $4.99 you can come watch this romance movie with me!" Now I'm not really interested, but he says "Look, this is widely regarded as not only one of the best romance movies of all time, but one of the best movies overall of all time." I do a little reading online and see that many people are ranting and raving at this movie; negative reviews are hard to come by. I agree to watch the movie and I enjoy it. I now consider myself interested in viewing other romances. A month later, this same friend comes up to me and says "Hey, wanna go up to see a play tonight? It's a romance and it's unscripted, anything could happen! Only $4.99 to get in!" Now, seeing as I liked a romance movie before, I decide that this could be a good investment of my money and decide to attend. Upon sitting down and the play starting, I quickly find that it is an abomination of unscripted madness, bible thumping, horses, and some guy named Dan. I am appalled, and with this bad experience decide that romances are not for me, so I decide to never spend my money to view one again.

Do you see what happened there? By seeing a product that did not have a guaranteed outcome, and not liking the outcome that happened, I have very quickly become the very antithesis of a fan. I will never pay for an event like that again.

Now, re-read my story, replacing "Romance movie" with MLG, and "Romance play" with "Grassroots Major"

This is why a lot of people do not want to blindly pay.

I use TYM, I moderate the site for christ's sakes and do lots of work for the Smoke forum. Of course I care about the game. I have traveled to three majors and an MLG, as well as countless locals at CoCo (as well as running brackets for them). Obviously I care about my game, and I care about the FGC as a whole. The fact of the matter is that I just do not feel entertained by grassroots MK streams, and I think there are a lot of people that would not pay to view it. If there's a free SD/paid HD option I would be 100% behind that, but making a fee for ALL people to enter is not a good business model in my eyes.

 

[Justice]

Im talking down only to those who act like its impossible to go buy a gift card

thats all really and im not even trying to talk down, I just dont see that as a good excuse when gift cards are everywhere if need be.

Spooky's ways aside i would do $1.00 for the entire major w chat included not $6.00

Spooky's chat was a pleasure to witness and read today and I just feel like $1.00 prices the trolls out for one thing, supports the streamers efforts for another and sets a higher precedent for all viewers to enjoy

But this is the format we have now. To introduce anything new would either have to be in addition to what's already there or exclude those that already have their own pay plan in place.

For me, sp00ky's stream pissed me right off. I'm not paying $5 for roughly an hour to an hour and a half. In addition, since I only watch MK, it would amount to $5 per tournament since it's MK majors are only run once per month.

Another thing to consider is that if this were to happen, tournament organizers would be pressured into finishing tournaments in one day so that watchers wouldn't have to pay again the second day for top 8 or whatever. This also places pressure on the TO since the way things are run now, Winter Brawl as an example, a game's pools and finals aren't necessarily going to be streamed by the same streamer. This could also lead to some less popular games not getting their pools streamed just to save aggravation and stress for the TO.

I know I'm coming across as a negative nelly, but I really do support the IDEA; we just have to implement it in baby steps. Especially with the economy the way it is, many people's brains shut off the second they hear anything resembling "We want monies"; regardless of how good the cause is.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Another thing is:

We're generally willing to put up with all the stream drops, lag, quality issues, problems with production quality etc. because we're just grateful to have the stream. However, if everyone is paying, they aren't going to want to drop even the smallest amount of money on a stream that cuts out at a critical moment in a crucial match.

Certain streams really have it together, like the one EGP ran for SCR, but random 4G would be a diaster for that kind of setup.

It is true though, that for this community to reach the next level, we need to find some way of monetizing something, rather than TOs and streamers always operating at a borderline loss and paying expenses out of their own pockets and the goodwill of their hearts to make ends meet.

 

[STB Shujinkydink]

I agree that they should get some sort of payment. But thats what the donation thing is for. We should support the streamers with what we can afford. I would be nervous that having to pay 1.00 to watch would turn away people who have never watched a tourney before. If its free and you can just turn it on its much easier exposure for our scene. I think what we really should be doing is donating more whenever we can, and keep the option free for those that are newer or just in a tough spot. What i always liked was that they werent paid and they did it purely for the love of the game. The effort they put into it and the time shows to all of us how much they enjoy it, and i think everyone appreciates it, whether their vocal about it or not.

 

[KingHippo]

I mean it also helps if you're not, uh, a complete toolbag, and people will generally like supporting you. I really don't think someone like Phil OR Spooky would have an issue getting donations. Others might have an issue, but so be it.

 

[Compbros]

-snip-

That's actually an interesting scenario and I have said, in this very thread, that I got into some games simply from stumbling into the stream and watching some good matches. However, your scenario is a bit different: When it comes to the "play" it's a bad product going in, there's nothing that can change the bad script and such. Gaming depends on the players and, even if the event itself is horrendous, there is still much entertainment to be had from the high level play. Using your own example, imagine the actor or actress from that movie is in the play and, even though it's an unfocused mess, you find enjoyment in their performance as they're really good in it, it's just an abysmal script. Not the best analogy but I'm just trying to match the two different forms of entertainment.

If you're talking about the stream itself, that I can agree with. However, at a dollar, I'd take the hit and just never deal with that streamer again.

Also, I don't think anyone would be "blindly paying" for these streams: People know what they like and, if they don't, or don't quite know if they like it or not, they can look up endless hours of footage and tournament matches from Youtube archives and such. There's plenty of time between the announcement of lineups in that Major and the ability to see if you want to pay to watch game X.

I think the best thing to do is just have 240p be free and pay for anything higher than that.

 

[FrothyOmen]

What if there were two chats, a free chat and a paid chat? If you look at the new layout on twitch tv (twitch.tv/channelname/new) you'll see the chat on the right with two tabs right above it: Chat and Videos. What if there was a third, "subscriber" chat tab added to this? That way free users can stay free in the poverty room, and paid users can avoid the trolls in the paid room? I think that's a good solution, but that's something only twitch themselves could implement :\

 

[LesMore]

I think one thing that may make this diffucult to do is that I dont think the consumer is allowed to make any money off of these games... It seems like a legal issue... like how you cant rent a movie and then sell tickets for other people to come see it...

 

[Justice]

Seriously? That post is worthy of an insult? What can we do? It's advertised on all outlets for MK and anywhere a person interested in MK would go to. We tweet, retweet, post FB messages, what have you....What more can be done on our part to advertise MK to anyone that may be interested in MK? Offer me a suggestion before insulting me.

I literally don't understand your point in the second paragraph.

If it wasn't worthy, I wouldn't have given one.

The second paragraph was offering the suggestions that you "didn't uderstand". We can advertise our events until we have no fingertips left but if players are watching an MK stream while waiting for their favourite game and all they see is SweepSweepSweepSweepSweepSweepSweepSweepSweepSweepSweepSweep all day long, do you really think all that advertising you just did will mean anything? If the consumer doesn't like your product, all the advertising in the world won't save you. DoA5 and Skullgirls come to mind.

It's a mix of advertising and presenting our game int he best possible light we can. It also includes having the best streams with the best commentators (and this is where Pig's idea comes in). It also includes tournament footage of the players not playing. If it looks like we're having fun then other people will want to hang out and be a part of that.

Yes there is a lot we can do, DO do and will do to promote MK, the FGC and gaming in general.

 

[Derptile]

Only 240p video?

Do you people live in 2005 or something?

 

[Faded Dreams V]

Only 240p video?

Do you people live in 2005 or something?

Even 240p lags for me.

 

[Compbros]

If it wasn't worthy, I wouldn't have given one.

The second paragraph was offering the suggestions that you "didn't uderstand". We can advertise our events until we have no fingertips left but if players are watching an MK stream while waiting for their favourite game and all they see is SweepSweepSweepSweepSweepSweepSweepSweepSweepSweepSweepSweep all day long, do you really think all that advertising you just did will mean anything? If the consumer doesn't like your product, all the advertising in the world won't save you. DoA5 and Skullgirls come to mind.

It's a mix of advertising and presenting our game int he best possible light we can. It also includes having the best streams with the best commentators (and this is where Pig's idea comes in). It also includes tournament footage of the players not playing. If it looks like we're having fun then other people will want to hang out and be a part of that.

Yes there is a lot we can do, DO do and will do to promote MK, the FGC and gaming in general.

Okay, I'm gonna take a step back for a second and try and see what you're saying.

Why would there ever be a major with 10 hours of low level play? This part is really throwing me. You're saying we need high level play, we have high level play, that's just a given. I'm really not understanding this.

"If the consumer doesn't like your product all the advertising won't save you", many don't like our product. People hate MK whether fairly or unfairly and we advertise for people that might like it as no one else is gonna go to a MK dedicated stream. So, again, there's no way we can present our game, at it's core, any better. We can have the highest quality, best commentators and best MK matches around but if people don't like MK then it's all for nothing. We cannot change our game, we cannot make people like the game itself by having a better stream.

I'm really trying to understand where you're coming from but I'm just not getting it.

 

[Mikemetroid]

No.

Having a working twitch app would be nice. If we get that working maybe I would agree to paying a small fee to watch Kabal in GF.

 

[Mt. Mutombo]

$2 dollars...Thin out the herd, no more of those awful stream monsters. Cause you know that kind of people ain't paying for shit .
​

 

[Compbros]

I'm looking at Bifuteki's stream and it's not very good right now, people in the chat are complaining left and right, still 3,000 viewers because it's Marvel. Even with the stream being bad people are willing to watch because they like the game so, again, how can we build more fans for our game beyond what we already do?

 

[Justice]

Okay, I'm gonna take a step back for a second and try and see what you're saying.

Why would there ever be a major with 10 hours of low level play? This part is really throwing me. You're saying we need high level play, we have high level play, that's just a given. I'm really not understanding this.

"If the consumer doesn't like your product all the advertising won't save you", many don't like our product. People hate MK whether fairly or unfairly and we advertise for people that might like it as no one else is gonna go to a MK dedicated stream. So, again, there's no way we can present our game, at it's core any better. We can have the highest quality, best commentators and best MK matches around but if people don't like MK then it's all for nothing. We cannot change our game, we cannot make people like the game itself by having a better stream.

I'm really trying to understand were you're coming from but I'm just not getting it.

There wouldn't be, that was just an example of what might turn a viewer off. Yep, we have high-level play, no arguments there. One thing for me as a regular watcher tho was that it was getting boring seeing the same top8 and same characters over and over. Winter Brawl was a wonderful truckload of hype for me because of this. Sure, a casual viewer won't have the same complaint, but with the hype at the tourney will come across on stream and make people excited to watch.

People hate every game whether fairly or unfairly. Think of when you were a kid and you didn't wanna eat peas because they were green and icky. Then your mom makes that funny plane sound and swirls the spoon around in the air and then you eat them. This is what I'm talking about. At the end of the day, there will never exist a game where the entire community will universally go "I'm playing that fucking game!". It'll never happen. What I mean by this is that we keep doing what we're doing and slowly improving it and that percentage of gamer that maybe "hates it cuz my buddies do" or "I saw trailers pre-release and didn't like it", show them what the game could be as opposed to the people that made the trailers.

It's a long, on-going process and yeah, after two years, odds are we aren't growing the MK scene exponentially anymore. But we're still having 60+ tournaments, we're going to EVO for an unprecedented third time in a row and we're still plugging away. There's still the potential for more in the near and not-so-near future.

I guess to help put things in perspective, I saw that part of your post as having too much of a defeatist attitude. There's always more we can do and of course there will be times like now where there will be a lot of effort for little gains. Doesn't mean we should stop trying or stop trying harder So for that I apologize for coming at you as hard as I did without at least explaining that part more.

 

[K7L33THA]

They should follow the pro wrestling mold. And I'm dead serious. The average normal stream should remain free with advertisements, with big events or "majors" being be ppv. I think this would work better than pay a buck for every single stream. You could even charge 10-15 bucks for a hyped up event every month or so. Of course there would need to be a tradeoff, payed events should run smoothly, I'm sure plenty would throw a fit about missing a match if they payed cash for it. I do think its a good idea and the money could help up fgc stream production.

 

[Konqrr]

Majors, monthlies, bi-monthlies like VSM coming up? yes... normal everyday streams, no.

I also think that chat should be paid subscribers only like spooky's streams at majors. Normal streaming is whatever.

 

[Zoidberg747]

The reason why there was no trolling or BS on sp00ky's stream was because he only allowed twitch subscribers to chat. So with your idea, I'd have to pay $5 to subscribe and then another dollar just to watch and chat with my friends. That's $6 for a $1 idea already.....

I do feel that streamers should be compensated in some way for their equipment use, travel and munchy expenses, etc. but paying to watch? Not so much. Paying to chat or other extras most definitely. I mean, we live in an age where people get butthurt over having to pay AT ALL for music, games, movies, et al (who are also generally the first to bitch about quality natch ) so even asking for $1 is asking a lot. Also too, you can talk down to people that don't have credit cards or paypal all you want, but the reality is, not everyone does. Another thing to consider on this is that not everyone will want to go through the effort of obtaining these payment methods for a $1 payment; especially when not that long ago, everything was free.

This. I am not going to set up paypal or get my parents to put the credit card online to pay 1$ to watch a stream. I think all streams having pay to chat is a great idea, and would give the streamers more money but not alienate anyone.

 

[B Pryme]

I like the idea of free pools, and then pay a couple bucks to watch top 16 down to grand finals. Stop being cheap bastards, for me personally MK streams are more entertaining than anything on tv. It's time we give back to the people that make this possible.

 

[Compbros]

-snip-

It's just a weird example, no offense. I could say no one wants to walk into a Rambo movie and get a romantic comedy, it's just not going to happen. There won't be a time were low level play completely dominates 10 hours worth of streaming a major, at lease I really hope there won't be lol. That's hype for you, for me it's just saying really good play, regardless of characters. Again, like you said, it won't affect anyone new coming in, that's just me.

Indeed they do, and you're trying to target the "unfair" hatred. That's fine but if they're really hating irrationally then their opinion may not change regardless of how the stream is. I see the point you're making that some crappy stream can turn people off to a game if they don't have a solid opinion but a marvelous stream also won't turn people onto it at the same time. The game itself and the players have to do that, again, there's not much we can do beyond what we already do.

Yes we are and it's good for our community.

Oh no, I wasn't being defeatist at all. My point was being that we, as the community, can only do so much to bring in fans and we're already doing our best. At some point the game has to speak for itself and our game just doesn't speak to a lot of players whether because of bias, legitimate criticism/dislike or indifference. I'm not saying "there's nothing we can do", I'm saying our game just doesn't appeal to some people and hence "literally nothing we can do" about it.

 

[Insuperable]

What if it's a 25-hour stream?! That's 2 whole dollars!
but seriously, what about subscribers and turbo viewers? They're already paying the streamer and Twitch. Do they get a pass for the viewing fee or would they have to pay as well? I know it's only $1, but it may cause some disagreement from these people.

 

[Compbros]

Subscribers should be covered, they're paying 5 bucks a month, they should get all the features.

 

[GGA HAN]

Of course not. I would never pay a dime to watch other people play a game that I own and can go in my living room and play. What if I'm trying to get my friend into mortal kombat, how do I justify him having to pay to watch something he doesn't even know he'll like? It doesn't matter what the cost is; the fact that there even is a cost at all is enough to turn a lot of people away. All the other fgcs don't need to do this, why should we? Run more ads and partner with twitch. So few streams have the option to change quality it's disgusting. What happens if somebody pays to watch a stream happeing in 720p only to find out their Internet can't support it? This is an awful idea and people WILL come out of the woodwork to both boycott and pirate the content. Restreaming of the paid streams will become commonplace which actually hurts your numbers eve more.

Frothy, I mean no disrespect, but this makes little sense to me; So you can pay to go watch a baseball game at Wrigley Field (lol) or your local stadium, but you can also walk outside and throw a softball around with some buddy's. Those are the same sport technically, but a very different experience that presumably is why people pay 50.00 a ticket. Taken one step further, you can watch the same game for free on TV at home, then why buy tickets to the game and go out pay 6.00 a hotdog and sit in uncomfortable stadium seats?

The same answer = the social experience. For the tournament this equals hotel room casuals, random snakings that end up as gifs in my sig, and the shennanigans that end up making the experience worth going to.

When you watch a stream, you get a part of that for free. In my baseball example, they are forced to advertise with commercials between each inning to make it worth them providing their "stream" of the game to you at home. What would be the equivalent for watching high-level MK?

Just some random thoughts...